~Can we agree if you are actively hunting Israeli citizens for either murder or kidnapping, you aren't an innocent civilian? I feel like this is an easy one
i can agree with that
Can you quote one of those many posts then for me? I looked, still can't find anyone here advocating the IDF go open season on Palestinian civilians in the manner that is happening to Israeli civilians. I did see several posters, myself included, who noted in detail their concern for innocent civilians.
Israel should bomb them off the map for this.
Where they flee is not really Israel's problem.
If all their neighbors hate them so much they have no where to flee, perhaps they should not have embraced an organization that is exterminating the Israel's civilian population.
I would imagine Israel would arrange transport to other Palestinian areas. That is what the US did at Fallujah. Line them up, search them, filter out suspected militants, and the move them on ward. The US did that until the civilians stopped flowing.
A few more
You do you understand that Israel controls all the borders around the Palestinian Territories and that they are very selective about who and what they let pass?Where they flee is not really Israel's problem.
You really think a middle eastern country with limited leadership is going to evacuate 3 million people in any timeframe that would be reasonable for a white hot military? Civilians will die, period....that you are ignoring context about I think. I see tactics in those posts, ones that lack any mention of 'innocent civilians.'
Again, Hamas is actively targeting civilians. The IDF is giving them warning of impending attack to specific areas. If you can't appreciate the difference in tactics I don't know what else to tell you.
How about explaining why it was fine for 6000 Palestinian citizens to be killed but 40 Israeli citizens is different?Since no one is submitting Israelis are blameless here, it might be a better idea for you to submit what it is you think is a more appropriate reaction to the current real time slaughter of civilians.
Please explain to me why it's not ok in Ukraine, but if it's happening in Israel 'oh well you just need to consult this calendar'...
Gaza has a border with Egypt.You do you understand that Israel controls all the borders around the Palestinian Territories and that they are very selective about who and what they let pass?
That's controlled by Israel. Nothing passes there without Israeli say soGaza has a border with Egypt.
It is the best way. Civilians either flee through Israel military lines (and be searched etc), and transported north to other Palestinian areas, or they flee into Egypt. It will take a while, but that is the point.You really think a middle eastern country with limited leadership is going to evacuate 3 million people in any timeframe that would be reasonable for a white hot military? Civilians will die, period.
I suspect your timeline is much longer than what I expect.When the hammer falls, everyone will be like Israel gave them six months to get out, its not Israels fault they didn't take the free ticket out. Everyone knew what was coming.
Or Israel could dismantle its apartheid state and honor the human and civil rights of all the people under its control, including the Palestinians. Israel is the only viable government in Gaza and the other territories and has an obligation to the people within its borders.It is the best way. Civilians either flee through Israel military lines (and be searched etc), and transported north to other Palestinian areas, or they flee into Egypt. It will take a while, but that is the point.
When the hammer falls, everyone will be like Israel gave them six months to get out, its not Israels fault they didn't take the free ticket out. Everyone knew what was coming.
Hamas is left with nothing but rubble, a memorial to the deaths they caused today, of the pointlessness of their murder. The ruin of a city.
Ummmm. Displacing several million citizens and destroying their homes has a term for it...It is the best way. Civilians either flee through Israel military lines (and be searched etc), and transported north to other Palestinian areas, or they flee into Egypt. It will take a while, but that is the point.
When the hammer falls, everyone will be like Israel gave them six months to get out, its not Israels fault they didn't take the free ticket out. Everyone knew what was coming.
Hamas is left with nothing but rubble, a memorial to the deaths they caused today, of the pointlessness of their murder. An example of where their way leads.
After something like this? The total destruction of Hamas. Directly, not indiscriminately.Re: Israel's retaliation....
This begs a question I have carried all day.
What IS justified here?
Where does that justification end?
ethnic cleansing?Ummmm. Displacing several million citizens and destroying their homes has a term for it...
Can't quite remember it...
Well Israel are the ones in control. They absolutely are responsible for the current conditions in the Palestinian Territories.Re: Israel's retaliation....
This begs a question I have carried all day.
What IS justified here?
Where does that justification end?
That works. Genocide also fits.ethnic cleansing?
No it isn't. Unless you think that they are going to wipe out the Israelis. It's fucking horrible but that's what happens when you cage people up for decades and occasionally shoot them.the Palestinians from Gaza are going door to door in Israel and executing people. That's genocide.
That would involve the people in control not treating the Palestinians like animals.Pick the lesser evil.
I struggle to comprehend the "capture" and "control" of such an extremely dense urban environment, without at least 10s of thousands "civilians" dead. Questionable designation, because many may in fact be shooting and fighting to defend their homes. Many MANY more would be caught up as collateral. That sort of retaliation IS a blood bath.After something like this? The total destruction of Hamas. Directly, not indiscriminately.
The ABC here in Australia just had an interesting interview with a Jewish German-Australian journalist who have spent years in Gaza reporting from there. He made a couple of excellent points;
1. Every Israeli civil rights group is calling the Israeli policies in dealing with Palestinians 'apartheid' . It is not 'genocide'. Language is important.
2. HAMAS is doing this to show the Arab world that it is still in charge of 'advocating' for Palestinian rights.
3. They are also doing this to throw a spanner into the current movement of normalisation between many Arab states and Israel. The journalist said that one of the things encouraging some of these Arab states to normalise their relations with Israel is access to Israeli surveillance products.
4. The journalist said that the actions of HAMAS ishould be in no way supported by anyone. But you can't bottle up a people like Israel has done for decades and not expect people to snap.
5. Large sections of the population of the Gaza Strip don't like HAMAS, but they have no choice.
6. The Palestinian administration in the West Bank which is supported by the West is largely seen by Arabs as an Israeli contractor. Completely impotent in advancing the Palestinian cause.
IDF are first rate, but most of its soldiers have more experience with policing than actual combat. In addition, Hamas has shown itself to be a competent and organized military organization, and they'll have the home court advantage. It'll be a tough fight with a high mortality rate. During normal times, I'd bet that the Israeli public would never go for it, but after the latest events - I think that it would be possible (but still not likely).Mahmoud Abbas is still around? Huh.
IDF will slice Gaza into districts, take it apart piece by piece. Will probably maintain a DMZ corridor open, at least I hope. This stands to be a lot bigger than '06 in Lebanon. Gaza will be a fortress and a tough nut to crack. IDF is a first rate military, has new tunnel detecting tech IIRC, and plenty of drones themselves. Hamas planned this for awhile, clearly. Should get ugly.
I have no problem saying Israel brought this on themselves, kinda already did several posts ago, but Hamas going full on Purge mode on civilians is not the answer. Now Israel is talking annihilation of the group, instead of containment and suppression. That will have the predictable consequences for civilians in the way, collateral avoidance or no. I'm not sure there would be much of a difference in the response had they only targetted IDF, Border Gaurds and police, but I do know the Palestinians would have fewer people like me questioning my support for them if they had.
Remember when Trump was first in office he allowed the Russians into the Oval? That day he disclosed some secret intel that Israel gave us
I’m not saying that was directly involved but it needs to be investigated
How about explaining why it was fine for 6000 Palestinian citizens to be killed but 40 Israeli citizens is different?
Be prepared for Israels response which will probably involve the bombing of densely populated civilian areas. In the past they had used white phosphorus bombs (banned under intl law) which had little or no tactical purpose vs the fighters but horrific effect against the civilian populace, a war crime. Such events would never be reported in NY Post or Daily Mail, who only focus on Israeli casualties.
Rain of Fire
This 71-page report provides witness accounts of the devastating effects that white phosphorus munitions had on civilians and civilian property in Gaza.www.hrw.org
This is probably what will happen. I see no other way to do it than to divide (districts) and conquer, you can't tackle it in its entirety all at once unless you want to indiscriminately glass the place. Yeah, hopefully they do have some corridors open. It will definitely get ugly.IDF will slice Gaza into districts, take it apart piece by piece. Will probably maintain a DMZ corridor open, at least I hope. This stands to be a lot bigger than '06 in Lebanon. Gaza will be a fortress and a tough nut to crack. IDF is a first rate military, has new tunnel detecting tech IIRC, and plenty of drones themselves. Hamas planned this for awhile, clearly. Should get ugly.
The IRA killed more people in the UK than Hamas has in Israel but I don't remember the UK shelling Dublin.I don't think it was fine at all for any of those 6,040 people to die over this shit. You'll have to find that explanation elsewhere. I don't support Israel's apartheid state at all, my beef with them goes all the way back to the Liberty FFS.
I just don't expect a protection force to do nothing when civilians are being butchered. If someone has a viable alternative to the timely application of deadly force when it comes to terrorists at work, I am all ears. Pretty sure doing nothing isn't an option.