Israel: We Are At War

[Leeea]

Have we had a neutral party go into the blast site and do an analysis? Can't a UN group do it?

There is nothing neutral in the Gaza strip. Hamas does not allow such a thing. There is no freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of protest, freedom to vote, etc.


It is like the Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant crisis in Ukraine. Russia simply doesn't allow neutral parties that is all their is to it.


Hamas is the same deal. Nobody who lives their is going to be to tell investigators anything but what Hamas wants them to tell. It is a totalitarian state.


and there is always the possibility the UN just gave Hamas more hostages.




note: this post was edited a minute or so after posting, but this thread is way to active for edits apparently

 

[HomerJS]

It wouldn't be safe.

You would be just adding to Hamas's hostage list

Until that happens how will we really know? All the real evidence is coming from Israel, Hamas or the Palestinians and they all have agendas.

Not equating the three.

 

[UNCjigga]

This thread makes me want a permanent vacation from AT P&N.

 

[Leeea]

Until that happens how will we really know? All the real evidence is coming from Israel, Hamas or the Palestinians and they all have agendas.

Not equating the three.

That is true, but we can trust some of that evidence.

For example, the Israeli drone footage lines up with the Palestinian footage filmed on the ground. That is two sources from opposite sides of the conflict that support each other. That evidence is likely valid.


On the other hand, the recording of the Islamic Jihad* that Israel claims launched the R-160 that hit the hospital parking lot is only provided by one party, so that is suspect.


*the Islamic Jihad is another faction operating in Gaza that is a less well trained / well organized then Hamas.

 

[HomerJS]

That is true, but we can trust some of that evidence.

For example, the Israeli drone footage lines up with the Palestinian footage filmed on the ground. That is two sources from opposite sides of the conflict that support each other. That evidence is likely valid.

Evidence from the blast site would prove beyond reasonable doubt. Until that happens everything else is circumstantial.

 

[Pens1566]

Evidence from the blast site would prove beyond reasonable doubt. Until that happens everything else is circumstantial.

And all we have of that is before/after photos and video. None of which is consistent with a HE munition being detonated in the area in question.

 

[Ajay]

This thread makes me want a permanent vacation from AT P&N.

Yes, arguing minutia while a major population center is being bombed around the clock. Yay us.

 

[Leeea]

Evidence from the blast site would prove beyond reasonable doubt. Until that happens everything else is circumstantial.

We are never going to get that.

But the target itself is interesting. The hospital parking lot. That is an odd target for Israel to hit.

Normally when Israel drops a building it looks like this:

Notice the bomb is fuzed to explode underground in the front corner of the building. Avoiding the two buildings next to it.

Completely destroying 1 single building, but leaving the ones next to it mostly unharmed.

Also, observe the size of the crater. The bomb goes off underground, destroying the foundation but not throwing shrapnel everywhere. Notice the lack of burn damage in the area.

Israel puts thought into these strikes to destroy the target and just the target.


This is completely opposite to air bursting a JDAM in a hospital parking lot. It just doesn't match how Israel operates.

 

[Abwx]

Jesus tap-dancing Christ

View attachment 87426

Memes are for the retarded...

As for the crater it could well have been the result of the bomb s metalic enveloppe projected at high speed in the ground direction, that s the more likely explanation but this require some logic wich is not up to everyone...

We are never going to get that.

But the target itself is interesting. The hospital parking lot. That is an odd target for Israel to hit.

Normally when Israel drops a building it looks like this:
View attachment 87430
Notice the bomb is fuzed to explode underground in the front corner of the building. Avoiding the two buildings next to it.

Completely destroying 1 single building, but leaving the ones next to it mostly unharmed.

Also, observe the size of the crater. The bomb goes off underground, destroying the foundation but not throwing shrapnel everywhere.

Israel puts thought into these strikes to destroy the target and just the target.


This is completely opposite to air bursting a JDAM in a hospital parking lot. It just doesn't match how Israel operates.

That was a bigger bomb dedicated to buildings destruction, as such it explode when contacting a hard surface, not the same type of device.

But in case you missed it here a rocket falling on the ground :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1713154789918302487

 

[Leeea]

But in case you missed it here a rocket falling on the ground :

And in case you missed it, there are a whole bunch of different rockets being fired for Gaza, and they are not all the same:

Palestinian rocket arsenal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So one video of a 10 kg warhead doesn't mean anything at all when they are also firing rockets with 165 kg warheads.

Hamas does manufacture its own R-160, by their own claim, and if you think that a R-160 has the same fuel load and explosive bang as a Qassam 4 your being willfully ignorant.

Keep in mind that Hamas's R-160 is a copy of Syria's M-302 which it self is a compromise copy of China's WS-1.

 

[Abwx]

And in case you missed it, there are a whole bunch of different rockets being fired for Gaza, and they are not all the same:

Palestinian rocket arsenal - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

So one video of a 10 kg warhead doesn't mean anything at all when they are also firing rockets with 165 kg warheads.

Hamas does manufacture its own R-160, by their own claim, and if you think that a R-160 has the same fuel load and explosive bang as a Qassam 4 your being willfully ignorant.

You are confused, there s no 165kg warhead, that s a total mass, warhead is 10-20kg and as said it s shrapnels with explosives, so most of the warheads weight are the shrapnels...

165kg ones, if they exist because wiki say that it s up to 50kg total mass, are the long range but warheads are still 10-20kg...

Qassam rocket - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Leeea]

You are confused, there s no 165kg warhead, that s a total mass, warhead is 10-20kg and as said it s shrapnels with explosives, so most of the warheads weight are the shrapnels...

165kg ones, if they exist because wiki say that it s up to 50kg total mass, are the long range but warheads are still 10-20kg...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_arsenal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaibar-1
https://missilethreat.csis.org/country/hezbollahs-rocket-arsenal/

The Khaibar-1 has a range of 100 km while carrying a 150 kg payload. It is typically equipped with large, anti-personnel warheads. The rocket has a length of 6.3 m, a body diameter of 0.302 m, and a launch weight of approximately 750 kg

and yes, the the M-302, R-160, and Khaibar-1 are all names for the same rocket. The R-160 is the Hamas manufactured version of the rocket made in Gaza.

No, 165 is not the total mass, the total mass is 750 kg.

The payload is 150 kg.



So I give you the link and you ignore it. Willfully ignorant. So I have to give to you a 2nd time and lay it out kinder-garden style.

In your own way, your are also degrading the Palestinians, because you cannot bring yourself to believe they can manufacture a munition bigger then 20 kg.

Pathetic.

 

[Abwx]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_arsenal
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khaibar-1
https://missilethreat.csis.org/country/hezbollahs-rocket-arsenal/

and yes, the the M-302, R-160, and Khaibar-1 are all names for the same rocket. The R-160 is the Hamas manufactured version of the rocket made in Gaza.

No, 165 is not the total mass, the total mass is 750 kg.

The payload is 150 kg.



So I give you the link and you ignore it. Willfully ignorant. So I have to give to you a 2nd time and lay it out kinder-garden style.

In your own way, your are also degrading the Palestinians, because you cannot bring yourself to believe they can manufacture a munition bigger then 20 kg.

Pathetic.

What is pathetic is to think that a so small crater was created by a 150kg payload, and at the same time that a device that create such a small crater can do so much destruction, so that s at the same time a big device because of the destruction, and a small device because of the small crater.

I said that is was created by the enveloppe of a bomb metalic casing that was projected in direction of the ground given that the bomb did explode at say 10 metres height.

At least that sound logic contrary to your babbling wich require two contradictory scenarios to happen at the same time, or is it some Schrodinger s cat paradoxe applied to hamas rockets...?

 

[Meghan54]

But how a car coud be upside down or completely bended with a hamas rocket that has very few blast pressure..?...

And without being directly impacted..?..

And from your words you said that the alleged rocket fell on the ground...

Remember, the marine veteran said that he think that it was a 200 lbs bomb.

pssstttt….it was a VLCDW. There ya go…now run with it. 🤪

 

[pcgeek11]

And how do we expect imprisoned brainwashed children to set up a valid government?

Good question. I have no idea.

 

[Zor Prime]

Good question. I have no idea.

Aliens.

Aliens are the answer.

They need to show up and all but the most hardliner zealot will think twice and consider that just maybe they've been lied to their entire life.

Dying for and killing over lies will make people at least a couple degrees more rational overall.

 

[Leeea]

What is pathetic is to think that a so small crater was created by a 150kg payload, and at the same time that a device that create such a small crater can do so much destruction, so that s at the same time a big device because of the destruction, and a small device because of the small crater.

I said that is was created by the enveloppe of a bomb metalic casing that was projected in direction of the ground given that the bomb did explode at say 10 metres height.

At least that sound logic contrary to your babbling wich require two contradictory scenarios to happen at the same time, or is it some Schrodinger s cat paradoxe applied to hamas rockets...?

At this point it appears to have malfunctioned.

the brilliant flash we see in some of the video is the propellant, the 750 kg of fuel in the rocket burning off after it collides with the ground. Not the sort of thing a military grade explosive gives off. Flash, heat, and shock wave yes, but not military grade explosive. Pretty consistent with the damage we see at the scene. Even the crater looks like a big pipe hitting the ground. You have seen rockets explode, think that sort of thing. Lots of heat, lots of flash, and slow shock wave. Anything right next to the impact will get well and truly smushed and flung, but a bit farther a way will get hit by flying derbies and lots of flash and heat damage.

As for the warhead. If it detonated it went off at ground level. But it might not have, military grade explosive requires a very specific detonator to explode. c4 will just burn with a clear very hot blue flame. It if did not receive the signal to detonate it would have just added to the inferno. Keep in mind R-160 is not spin stabilized, tail/side/offset strike with the ground is possible.

The whole scene is more consistent with 750kg of rocket fuel rapidly disassembling then it is with a bomb.


As for the casualties, burns, lots of burns.

 

[woolfe9998]

Have we had a neutral party go into the blast site and do an analysis? Can't a UN group do it?

Er, wouldn't that be a tad ill-advised right now, for some independent group to be in Gaza City? Best wait until the conflict is over....

 

[Sunburn74]

There is nothing neutral in the Gaza strip. Hamas does not allow such a thing. There is no freedom of speech, freedom of press, freedom of protest, freedom to vote, etc.

Hamas is the same deal. Nobody who lives their is going to be to tell investigators anything but what Hamas wants them to tell. It is a totalitarian state.

This is blatantly untrue. I know this after talking to people who have lived in Gaza under Hamas and left. There is a wide variety of opinions as to the best way to politically manage the situation amongst the people of Gaza.

 

[Leeea]

Yes, arguing minutia while a major population center is being bombed around the clock. Yay us.

There is a certain acceptance on both sides that the targets Israel bombs can be valid military targets.


The hospital bombing is such a clear cut non-military target that it immediately turns into a fight.


The road bombing looked more like an IED then an Israeli airstrike so nobody wants to talk about that. Somebody had blockaded the flow of traffic not far from their to cause it to group up for that. Just a touch to suspicious on that one. Israel certainly didn't have the capability to block the flow of traffic ...



So the hospital one is the perfect one to argue about.

 

[Muse]

There 1000s of Arabic speakers in Israel incl many in the IDF. How convenient for the IDF to provide such a tape when the need arises, lol.

Troll

 

[Abwx]

pssstttt….it was a VLCDW. There ya go…now run with it. 🤪

At this point it appears to have malfunctioned.

the brilliant flash we see in some of the video is the propellant, the 750 kg of fuel in the rocket burning off after it collides with the ground. Not the sort of thing a military grade explosive gives off. Flash, heat, and shock wave yes, but not military grade explosive. Pretty consistent with the damage we see at the scene. Even the crater looks like a big pipe hitting the ground. You have seen rockets explode, think that sort of thing. Lots of heat, lots of flash, and slow shock wave. Anything right next to the impact will get well and truly smushed and flung, but a bit farther a way will get hit by flying derbies and lots of flash and heat damage.

As for the warhead. If it detonated it went off at ground level. But it might not have, military grade explosive requires a very specific detonator to explode. c4 will just burn with a clear very hot blue flame. It if did not receive the signal to detonate it would have just added to the inferno. Keep in mind R-160 is not spin stabilized, tail/side/offset strike with the ground is possible.

The whole scene is more consistent with 750kg of rocket fuel rapidly disassembling then it is with a bomb.


As for the casualties, burns, lots of burns.

Propelant is of bad quality, that s actually a mix of a fertiliser, potassium nitrate and sugar as the comburant, it cant explode unless the opening mouth is extremely small, wich is not the case with a rocket exhaust, when it collide with the ground there will be a flame that get out from the exhaust and nothing else.

The residual combustion product is some kind of tofee because of the sugar, its colour is between brown and red and look like some solidified lava.

As for the warhead of such a big device it wouldnt produce such a little crater, obviously that s a small charge ,wich doesnt correlate with the destruction, or as i said a high speed residual projectile that was part of a bomb metal casing, once the bomb explode the casing is projected at several km/s^2 acceleration, at a 10 metres distance from inititial explosion it would impact the gound at 100-200m/s

 

[Leeea]

This is blatantly untrue. I know this after talking to people who have lived in Gaza under Hamas and left. There is a wide variety of opinions as to the best way to politically manage the situation amongst the people of Gaza.

Gaza Strip: Freedom in the World 2020 Country Report | Freedom House

See the Freedom in the World 2020 score and learn about democracy and freedom in Gaza Strip.

freedomhouse.org

is that so?

No open elections for any office have been held in Gaza since 2006.

Since 2007, Gaza has functioned as a de facto one-party state under Hamas rule

Armed groups, including the Israeli military and militias such as those affiliated with Hamas and Islamic Jihad, exercise disproportionate control over the day-to-day lives of Palestinians in Gaza and leave them with virtually no ability to shape policies that affect them.

Hamas makes little effort to address the rights of marginalized groups within Gazan society.

MADA reported 113 violations by Palestinian authorities in the Gaza Strip in 2019, including cases of arrest or detention of journalists, physical attacks, and torture or other abuse in custody.

Blasphemy is a criminal offense. Hamas authorities have enforced conservative Sunni Islamic practices

Hamas intervenes in the schools under its control to uphold its views on Islamic identity and morality.

Hamas-led police have violently suppressed student demonstrations.

Intimidation by Hamas militants and other armed groups has some effect on personal expression and private discussion in Gaza, and the authorities monitor social media for critical content. A 2018 Human Rights Watch report documented a number of incidents in which Hamas intimidated, detained, or abused individuals in response to their social media activity or attendance at political events, most notably those perceived to be supportive of Fatah or opposed to the Hamas government. For example, individuals have been detained and questioned about social media posts that were critical of the Hamas leadership and its handling of electricity shortages.

big brother is watching ...

Hamas also significantly restricts freedom of assembly, with security forces violently dispersing unapproved public gatherings.

Hamas has restricted the activities of organizations that do not submit to its regulations, and many civic associations have been shut down for political reasons since the 2007 PA split.

Hamas security forces and militants regularly carry out arbitrary arrests and detentions. The court system overseen by Hamas generally fails to ensure due process, and in some cases civilians are subject to trial by special military courts.

due process? meh.

Hamas-led authorities have applied the death penalty without due process or adequate opportunity for appeals, and without the legally required approval from the PA president. Two death sentences were issued during 2019, a steep decline from previous years, and no executions were carried out.

great news though, executions are down!

The legal system operating in Gaza offers few protections against harassment and discrimination for women and other vulnerable groups, including LGBT+ people. Laws dating to the British Mandate era authorize up to 10 years in prison for sexual acts between men.

well, from that alone I know what side I am on. The side that is not throwing me into jail for 10 years.

Beginning in mid-2018, Egypt partially reduced its restrictions on the Rafah crossing, which has since been operating five days a week on a regular basis. However, it is still difficult for many Palestinians to receive appropriate permits from Hamas and the Egyptian government, with wealthier individuals paying brokers to arrange “expedited” processing.

You have to bribe both Egyptian and Hamas authorities. Double corruption.

 

[HomerJS]

And how do we expect imprisoned brainwashed children to set up a valid government?

You just described the current House of Representatives

 

[Leeea]

You just described the current House of Representatives

to be fair, we don't have a valid government.


everyone has been elected, they just seem to immature to pick a speaker.