Israel: We Are At War

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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
No country on earth is engaged in more disinformation and lies than the Israeli state.


Is your comment supported by the content of your link, the one from the Palestinian activist group? They purport to compiles lies and disinformation, but where is your baseline of comparison? You did after all make a comparative observation.

Your source is swill, but for now I'd rather just focus on whether it even supports your remark.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,629
11,350
136
  • 521 Naksa survivors (56-74 years old)
  • 89 Nakba survivors (75+ years old)
I had to look up what those two words meant. You know that feeling when you've had your fill over multiple decades of how ugly humanity can be, then you learn something new to add to that pile.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,107
2,379
136
Is your comment supported by the content of your link, the one from the Palestinian activist group? They purport to compiles lies and disinformation, but where is your baseline of comparison? You did after all make a comparative observation.

Your source is swill, but for now I'd rather just focus on whether it even supports your remark.
Do you even examine the link for the legitimate references it uses? Incl Human Rights Watch and Amnesty Intl? I guess not. Or maybe you did and didnt like the fact that these 2 orgs consistently debunk and criticize Israel and are therefore "biased"?
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Do you even examine the link for the legitimate references it uses? Incl Human Rights Watch and Amnesty Intl? I guess not. Or maybe you did and didnt like the fact that these 2 orgs consistently debunk and criticize Israel and are therefore "biased"?

The organization is a Palestinian advocacy group. It's a propaganda article. These groups produce anti-Israel propaganda all the time. it honestly doesn't matter for purposes of this discussion even if all of it is true, which I doubt it is. But for the momentary sake of argument, we can hypothetically assume it's all true. And the reason I can concede that point is because frankly, it isn't that long a list. Certainly not compared to the United State and its history. Let alone dictatorships. Putin alone has lied more times just in conjunction with the Ukraine war than all the items on your Palestinian list. For example, when he invaded Ukraine, he claimed it was because ethnic Russians were being persecuted in Ukraine, just like Hitler claimed he invaded Poland because ethnic Germans were being persecuted in Poland. That was a lie to justify starting a war of aggression. Your list is puny compared to Putin alone. And it's puny compared to US history, even recent US history. Should we start with all the WMD's in Iraq, or that Iraq was involved in 9/11? There's plenty more.

Also, the Palestinians have lied, rampantly. Every one of your anti-Israel aid organizations has proven it, when they go in and investigate, that civilian casualty numbers are much lower than what "the Palestinian health ministry" claims them to be. It's happened for every major engagement, at least since the battle in Jenin in 2003. And there's much, much more. And I don't need propaganda sources to prove it. The very organizations you guys rely on to de-legitimize the state of Israel have proven it over and over again. So perhaps your Palestinian advocacy group can compile such a list. Self-reflection is always a sound practice.

Which leads me straight back to my point which I know you intentionally ignored. Now, I want you to tell me what in your article supports your statement, to wit:

No country on earth is engaged in more disinformation and lies than the Israeli state.
Surely there must be list of lies and disinformation by other countries like,. say,, the United States for you to make this comparative statement. There must be something you're comparing Israel's conduct to in order to make that statement. But I don't see it in your link. So where is this information?
 
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emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,819
1,577
136
The organization is a Palestinian advocacy group. It's a propaganda article. These groups produce anti-Israel propaganda all the time. it honestly doesn't matter for purposes of this discussion even if all of it is true, which I doubt it is. But for the momentary sake of argument, we can hypothetically assume it's all true. And the reason I can concede that point is because frankly, it isn't that long a list. Certainly not compared to the United State and its history. Let alone dictatorships. Putin alone has lied more times just in conjunction with the Ukraine war than all the items on your Palestinian list. For example, when he invaded Ukraine, he claimed it was because ethnic Russians were being persecuted in Ukraine, just like Hitler claimed he invaded Poland because ethnic Germans were being persecuted in Poland. That was a lie to justify starting a war of aggression. Your list is puny compared to Putin alone. And it's puny compared to US history, even recent US history. Should we start with all the WMD's in Iraq, or that Iraq was involved in 9/11? There's plenty more.

Also, the Palestinians have lied, rampantly. Every one of your anti-Israel aid organizations has proven it, when they go in and investigate, that civilian casualty numbers are much lower than what "the Palestinian health ministry" claims them to be. It's happened for every major engagement, at least since the battle in Jenin in 2003. And there's much, much more. And I don't need propaganda sources to prove it. The very organizations you guys rely on to de-legitimize the state of Israel have proven it over and over again. So perhaps your Palestinian advocacy group can compile such a list. Self-reflection is always a sound practice.

Which leads me straight back to my point which I know you intentionally ignored. Now, I want you to tell me what in your article supports your statement, to wit:


Surely there must be list of lies and disinformation by other countries like,. say,, the United States for you to make this comparative statement. There must be something you're comparing Israel's conduct to in order to make that statement. But I don't see it in your link. So where is this information?
The problem is that Israel is supposed to be our ally and Israel and it's allies continuously lie and propagandize to us. Here is another example. The is a larger video of the Isreali student that was being "harassed" at Harvard, that was spoken of as an example of Antisemitism on college campuses. I initially felt bad about it and then saw this video. Imagine someone stepping over me to take my picture as I lie on the ground, then having the gall to say he was attacked for being Jewish.

 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,111
21,234
136
If one supports Israel in all this, your credibility is immediately questionable. Just like a Trump supporter should be.
 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,107
2,379
136
The organization is a Palestinian advocacy group. It's a propaganda article. These groups produce anti-Israel propaganda all the time. it honestly doesn't matter for purposes of this discussion even if all of it is true, which I doubt it is. But for the momentary sake of argument, we can hypothetically assume it's all true. And the reason I can concede that point is because frankly, it isn't that long a list. Certainly not compared to the United State and its history. Let alone dictatorships. Putin alone has lied more times just in conjunction with the Ukraine war than all the items on your Palestinian list. For example, when he invaded Ukraine, he claimed it was because ethnic Russians were being persecuted in Ukraine, just like Hitler claimed he invaded Poland because ethnic Germans were being persecuted in Poland. That was a lie to justify starting a war of aggression. Your list is puny compared to Putin alone. And it's puny compared to US history, even recent US history. Should we start with all the WMD's in Iraq, or that Iraq was involved in 9/11? There's plenty more.

Also, the Palestinians have lied, rampantly. Every one of your anti-Israel aid organizations has proven it, when they go in and investigate, that civilian casualty numbers are much lower than what "the Palestinian health ministry" claims them to be. It's happened for every major engagement, at least since the battle in Jenin in 2003. And there's much, much more. And I don't need propaganda sources to prove it. The very organizations you guys rely on to de-legitimize the state of Israel have proven it over and over again. So perhaps your Palestinian advocacy group can compile such a list. Self-reflection is always a sound practice.

Which leads me straight back to my point which I know you intentionally ignored. Now, I want you to tell me what in your article supports your statement, to wit:


Surely there must be list of lies and disinformation by other countries like,. say,, the United States for you to make this comparative statement. There must be something you're comparing Israel's conduct to in order to make that statement. But I don't see it in your link. So where is this information?
As you may have correctly presumed, my statement "No country on earth is engaged in more disinformation and lies than the Israeli state" is an opinion as there are no means to accurately verify it. But it is also not a matter that can be gauged quantitatively (as in number of lies or disinfo), but the breadth, scale and impact that it can have on a global basis.

All sides in any conflicts rely on disinfo to gain an edge. Sure the Pals do it too, just that they are crude and simple relying on inflating casualties. Not to say their casualties were not considerable given their huge densely packed population that has been subjected to virtually indiscriminate bombing. But the Pals are not as far thinking or as sophisticated as the Israelis in pulling off disinfo or outright lies like the beheaded babies which even the PMs spokesman was claiming.

Yes, Putin and other dictators, even democracies as the U.S engage in disinfo too, but whether they top the Israelis at it I dont know for sure, just that its a reasonable guess they do not. They also dont reach the scale and impact of Israeli lies and disinfo in terms of its effectiveness over decades of perpetuating myths and falsehoods esp in the West and their huge influence over much of the media that peddles it.

For Israel, disinfo and lies are critical to help it survive without being regarded as a pariah state by the rest of the world. This disinfo goes all the way back to 1948 and before. Much of these lies and disinfo have been debunked by Israeli historians when Israel declassified its war and military records in in the 1980s. They found that most of Israels myths re the birth of the nation were revealed to be fabrications.

Aside from "Palestinian advocacy" groups that rely on reputable external references (HRW run for many years by Ken Roth who is Jewish and Amnesty Int'l), I could build my case entirely from Israeli and Jewish sources, academics, and historians, who have been continuously debunking much of Israels lies and disinfo over the decades.
 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
30,031
45,271
136
If one supports Israel in all this, your credibility is immediately questionable. Just like a Trump supporter should be.
It has the same energy as Blacks for Trump


More sobering numbers



From Israeli TV

~I went in with a tank to the settlement, I was required to fire a shell into a house": The story of the October 7 heroism of Lt. Col. Habaka, 53rd Battalion, who was killed in battle in the Gaza Strip. May his memory be blessed
 
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Ajay

Lifer
Jan 8, 2001
16,094
8,109
136
oh wow, not sure when this actually happened though

Uh, looks he just blew off some metal piece from the tank. Not the tank. There is no picture of the damaged tank, probably because it moved out of the area. I imagine we are going to see lots of stupid stuff. That said - dude has a set of big steel balls for running up on a tank in a group like that.
 
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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,775
40,266
136
oh wow, not sure when this actually happened though


Looks like it really happened, definitely gutsy, but shells like that require velocity to help do the damage. Maybe I'm wrong, but with usually a couple pounds of explosive in a 105 shell, and with no kinetic force behind it, the results are probably more like a big grenade rather than a focused AP hit. Merkava is optimized with more top armor for urban settings too so I kinda of doubt that IED destroyed the entire tank.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,111
21,234
136
Apparently 12 Democratic morons in the house voted for the radical speakers Israeli AIDS support bill that's contingent on cutting the IRS funding.

Vote those fuckers out
 
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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,775
40,266
136
Hrmm. Guess I was wrong about it not being like Fallujah in that respect then. Good shoot Jordan.



I simply cannot see the word Pervitin without thinking of the absolute animal known as Aimo Koivunen Took a dose big enough for 30 men.



Someone got in touch with his inner Cocaine Bear. Cranked out 100km on skis without noticing it, went over a mine so fast he didn't get hurt. Survived sub zero overnight temps and Soviet patrols while unarmed and going through a prolonged meth overdose. At one point he blacked out but kept skiiing. Showed up in Finnish territory weighing 94lbs and rocking a 200bpm heartrate.
 
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kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
28,775
40,266
136
Looks like he tried to disable the Trophy active protection system for the follow up RPG shot. And considering the fact that this video was released by Hamas it's likely that this guy survived.

I believe you are correct. I don't read Arabic but clip points out what I think is a side view radar node. Auto loader for Trophy probably damaged too, but taking down "an eye" was the important bit.

That RPG he grabs is a PG-7VR I believe. Tandem warhead stuff, a known Merkava killer.
 

Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,748
3,240
136
More sobering numbers

1) Unless those Palestine numbers come from an unaffiliated 3rd party I do not believe them. The Hamas health ministry have already lied about the number of deaths / casualties so I don't expect them to be honest with the total.

2) This shows the difference between a government that separates its military and civilian infrastructure to try and keep civilians out of harms way as much as is possible vs a government that actively mixes civilian and military infrastructure to maximise civilian casualties as a tool for recruitment and gaining sympathy.
 
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