Israel: We Are At War

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Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,748
3,240
136
I'll grant you that rape isn't ever warranted. But how you can with a straight face say that it's nonsense that Hamas need to kill while Israel is carpet-bombing Palestinian civilians is really sick, and you should take some time to consider that. And if you think that Israeli soldiers have never raped anyone then your naivety knows no bounds.

Israel are responding to the events of Oct 7th which were committed by Hamas.

Funny how you ignore that bit.

Neither does Israel (well, Netanyahu at least). If they wanted peace, they wouldn't be carpet-bombing civilians: it's a sure-fire method of inspiring a new generation of people to fight them. It is utterly inhumane.

There would have been an easier path prior to Oct 7th. As of right now Israel don't want peace, they want Hamas destroyed. Hamas embedding themselves in the civilian population makes that very tricky.

You've talked as if Israel and Palestine's share of land has been static and Hamas et al are unhappy with an arrangement that has stood for decades. If that's what you really believe, you need to educate yourself. Israel takes. Palestinians are unhappy with that. To be fair, Palestinians were never happy with the two-state solution, but neither would you be if some group of countries decided that half of your country would be given to a bunch of foreigners who think they're entitled to it, then they take more. Israel's strategy further fuels the conflict. You also talk of Hamas taking aid and diverting it. How much money does Israel take to fund its war machine?

The land has been cut up and shared and occupied for hundreds / thousands of years through various empires and wars.

The various 1917 proposals were far more equitable than the current split but Palestine and neighbours said no and then certain word events changed the landscape.

Israel could do far better, no doubt, but to say Hamas have no choice or are not somewhat responsible for how things are right now is absolutely nonsense.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,628
11,342
136
Israel are responding to the events of Oct 7th which were committed by Hamas.

Funny how you ignore that bit.

I don't ignore it, I just don't pretend it's an action that occurred in a vacuum.

The land has been cut up and shared and occupied for hundreds / thousands of years through various empires and wars.

And an extremely long time had passed since anyone vaguely Israeli had any legitimate claim to it.

The various 1917 proposals were far more equitable than the current split but Palestine and neighbours said no and then certain word events changed the landscape.

LOL. "If you don't go along with our unjust plan it'll be worse for you in the long run"

Israel could do far better, no doubt, but to say Hamas have no choice or are not somewhat responsible for how things are right now is absolutely nonsense.

"Israel could do far better" - but no comment there of course, no ideas about how they could do better or anything.

Maybe you should fly over there and tell Hamas et al to "stop resisting" between airstrikes. While you're there, maybe you can be the impartial third party to count the bodies of children and other Palestinian civilians, so that someone like you back at home can claim that you're biased in the event that you exhibit the slightest sign of empathy.
 
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Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,748
3,240
136
Maybe you should fly over there and tell Hamas et al to "stop resisting" between airstrikes. While you're there, maybe you can be the impartial third party to count the bodies of children and other Palestinian civilians, so that someone like you back at home can claim that you're biased in the event that you exhibit the slightest sign of empathy.

If Hamas were to release the hostages Israel would ceasefire, they have already said as much.

If Hamas were to surrender and another Palestinian group were to take control there might actually be a path to peace.

Hamas are currently the main blocker to progress.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,628
11,342
136
If Hamas were to release the hostages Israel would ceasefire, they have already said as much.

If Hamas were to surrender and another Palestinian group were to take control there might actually be a path to peace.

Hamas are currently the main blocker to progress.

It's sad that you think that the hostages are even vaguely relevant in Israel's strategy.

Maybe if they do enough airstrikes then the hostages will be free? Freed from what exactly is a question I'll leave you to ponder.
 
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KMFJD

Lifer
Aug 11, 2005
30,031
45,271
136
Turkey is recalling their ambassador



Israel finally released over 1,000 Palestinian workers that they had illegally detained since Oct 7th

 
Reactions: Ajay and mikeymikec

emperus

Diamond Member
Apr 6, 2012
7,819
1,577
136
What exactly are you trying to prove with this "example?" An Israeli student at Harvard might have pretended to be victim of a hate crime, and so.... That means....what? That Israel itself, as in its government, is particularly dishonest? So if an American lies, then we should presume that the American government lies, or should we presume that all Americans lie? Or how about this: when Jussie Smollett claimed to be lynched when he actually wasn't, and had set up the whole thing himself, what did that say about black people? That they all lie, and all the supposed hate crimes are "fake?" Do you think the 400% increase in anti-semitic hate crimes we've seen these past 2 weeks is also fake? Did "the Jews" firebomb their own Synagogue in Berlin? Wow that is PATHETIC man. Truly disgusting.

One Israel-=all Israelis=Israeli Government. Or did you mean to say, that one Jew = all "the Jews?" It's the exact same error in logic, and it's exactly parallel, so...

I hate bigots of all stripes. But the absolute worst are people who claim to be against bigotry and are secretly bigots themselves. It's no better than republicans who are publicly anti-gay but have secret gay sex lives.

This thread is a new low for this forum, and your post just might be the lowest of the low.

Tell me, what/who am I bigoted toward? How are you defining that word that you think it is appropriate to be used here? And while you are at it, could you please tell me what the appropriate way to criticize Israel would be, a country Americans spent billions of dollars on yearly.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,296
6,354
126
Tell me, what/who am I bigoted toward? How are you defining that word that you think it is appropriate to be used here? And while you are at it, could you please tell me what the appropriate way to criticize Israel would be, a country Americans spent billions of dollars on yearly.
Perhaps a bigot is anybody who questions the moral propriety of the claim that if your enemy kills your children you have a right and a duty to kill theirs or challenges the entitled mentality that justifies such thinking historically. The problem I see is that victim mentality will create what it fears. The monsters are always the other. There is no such thing as a Jew or a Palestinian. If all children dying there today had been magically switched in their cribs some time back, it would be parents who are now bombing their own flesh and blood children and that is really what they are doing not that many generations back.
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,572
9,945
146
What exactly are you trying to prove with this "example?" An Israeli student at Harvard might have pretended to be victim of a hate crime, and so.... That means....what? That Israel itself, as in its government, is particularly dishonest? So if an American lies, then we should presume that the American government lies, or should we presume that all Americans lie? Or how about this: when Jussie Smollett claimed to be lynched when he actually wasn't, and had set up the whole thing himself, what did that say about black people? That they all lie, and all the supposed hate crimes are "fake?" Do you think the 400% increase in anti-semitic hate crimes we've seen these past 2 weeks is also fake? Did "the Jews" firebomb their own Synagogue in Berlin? Wow that is PATHETIC man. Truly disgusting.

One Israel-=all Israelis=Israeli Government. Or did you mean to say, that one Jew = all "the Jews?" It's the exact same error in logic, and it's exactly parallel, so...

I hate bigots of all stripes. But the absolute worst are people who claim to be against bigotry and are secretly bigots themselves. It's no better than republicans who are publicly anti-gay but have secret gay sex lives.

This thread is a new low for this forum, and your post just might be the lowest of the low.
I have long respected you as a poster, so please keep that in mind as I say that your reply to emperus (another poster I respect) comes across as unfairly angry and more than a bit off the mark..
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,572
9,945
146
Dude, you are in a forum where opinions are routinely expressed. The link does not establish proof of anything, only samples of routine disinfo that Israel engages in. Yes, I do believe that Israel is the most dishonest nation in the world simply because they have to be to prop up their Zio project from disintegrating into a pariah state due to its numerous violations of int'l laws, the Geneva Conventions, UN resolutions and humanitarian laws. (you want proof of these, lists are ready)

You say terms like genocide and apartheid are "hyperbole". Do you disagree that what the Zio-state is doing in the West Bank is not apartheid with their stealing lands, establishing settlements connected with Jewish only roads that corral Pal communities like sheep and restrict their movements, tear up their farm lands and limit their water supplies is not a disgusting form of apartheid? Aside from Hebron where Pals shops, market place have shut down due to streets connecting to it being Jews only streets and where checkpoints are setup everywhere that harass Pals when going to schools or hospitals or their homes (you want proof of these, its also available). The overwhelming take from all that is the horrific inequality and subjugation of another people deemed racially inferior to the Jews. Anyone saying that is not apartheid would also have to be a very dishonest person.

ALL THAT is not widely known in the US/West because the Lobby and MSM they influence prevent such disturbing info about the Zio state from spreading. Therefore a continuous torrent of lies and disinfo to cover it up is required to prevent Israel from becoming the pariah state it deserves to be. That is what I base my opinion on. You can deflect all you want in demanding some sort of mathematical proof that Russia or whoever lies more than Israel to somehow 'absolve it' from its sordid state but its all just deflection.

Re the term 'genocide', its a matter of degree and method. Some are calling Gaza "A Textbook Case of Genocide". You can bend the term in whichever way you want to arrive at whatever conclusion you want, but it also seems like a deflection from other points you dont like to hear.

Re the Israeli historians, I have read enough excerpts from their works (esp Ilan Pappe) who base their work on actual Israeli war and military documents that were classified after the 1948 war to prevent their damaging nature from hurting the Israeli narrative. Decades later, the records were declassified and revealed that the Jews were not the purported victims who were about to be over-run by their (hopelessly weak and disorganized) neighbors and where most of the Pals were ethnically cleansed through brute force and not simply left their homes for greener pastures.

You may fish for your minor deflection points and deflect away. I know thats all you are interested in is to shift discussion away from examples I provided like West Bank apartheid which really hurt the Zios image, to other less impactful areas like precise definitions or other inconsequential points. I actually believe you are a genuine part of the Zio-disinfo campaign, esp when you mentioned the term apartheid as 'hyperbole' when you VERY WELL KNOW that it exists on a horrible level in the West Bank ( "Judea and Samaria" as you would call it).
Even given Israel's problematic birth, let me ask you, "Do you support the right of an Israeli state of any sort to exist in this area?"

In your answer, please don't delve into how much you abhor the present politics and actions of Israel, but basically and eternally, is there a place for an Israeli state of any sort in your heart?
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,107
2,376
136
Even given Israel's problematic birth, let me ask you, "Do you support the right of an Israeli state of any sort to exist in this area?"

In your answer, please don't delve into how much you abhor the present politics and actions of Israel, but basically and eternally, is there a place for an Israeli state of any sort in your heart?
Absolutely! In line with the 1967 borders according to international law and UN resolutions and as most of the world sees and recognizes it. Does anyone here see it differently or does not accept things along those terms? I mean other than extremists from either side who do not accept those terms or the 2 state solution which includes the West Bank which even the US still supports?
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,105
21,226
136
And Blinken pushes back on Arab leaders requests for an immediate ceasefire.

The Biden administration is completely failing here, it is obscene. And now they have a slight chance to redeem a bit of themselves and they still refuse.

Absolutely horrific when you support genocide like this.
 
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Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,296
6,354
126
Here is a passionate defense of Israel:


It reminds us of the difficulties of dealing with human monsters humanly. What it does not ask is how human beings become monsters or how monstrous one may become dealing with them. For most of the lives of most Americans there has been present as accepted truth just one side of a story. With the capacity of individuals of little previous access to media to tell their own stories, we now hear from both sides.

Seems like a monolithic favoring of one side is no longer the case and the there is now a greater diversity of opinion.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,017
8,054
136
Seems like a monolithic favoring of one side is no longer the case and the there is now a greater diversity of opinion.
When the choice of a piece of land is Israel or Hamas, there shouldn't be much "diversity of opinion" of who needs to be chosen and sided with.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I have long respected you as a poster, so please keep that in mind as I say that your reply to emperus (another poster I respect) comes across as unfairly angry and more than a bit off the mark..

Well the post I replied to started out saying that Israel as a nation a lie prone, then gave an example of an Israeli student at Harvard making an apparent false claim of being a victim of a hate crime. Do you see any connection between the two? The entire argument reminded me of conservative reactions to the Jussie Smollett affair, whereby they generalize about blacks or hate crimes (false). What do you think was motivating that reaction? There has been a 400% (5x) increase in anti-semitic incidents since this war started, including a firebombed synagogue in Berlin and Jews taken hostage from a plane that landed in Russia. Why would someone, especially a liberal, choose to highlight a case where the allegation may have been false, while expressing zero concern about the wider trend?

In any event, I'll try to keep my responses more measured. However, be aware that I see thinly concealed anti-semitism in this thread, and that tends to produce a hostile reaction from me.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
23,105
21,226
136
Well the post I replied to started out saying that Israel as a nation a lie prone, then gave an example of an Israeli student at Harvard making an apparent false claim of being a victim of a hate crime. Do you see any connection between the two? The entire argument reminded me of conservative reactions to the Jussie Smollett affair, whereby they generalize about blacks or hate crimes (false). What do you think was motivating that reaction? There has been a 400% (5x) increase in anti-semitic incidents since this war started, including a firebombed synagogue in Berlin and Jews taken hostage from a plane that landed in Russia. Why would someone, especially a liberal, choose to highlight a case where the allegation may have been false, while expressing zero concern about the wider trend?

In any event, I'll try to keep my responses more measured. However, be aware that I see thinly concealed anti-semitism in this thread, and that tends to produce a hostile reaction from me.

I see pro-genocide posting in this thread by people who provide misleading information on the history of the Zionist creation of the Holy Land of Israel via the worst kind of colonialist power instincts possible, act like the Palestinians are all at fault, which is obscene and disgusting. That seems to be making a lot of people upset.

He used a less than ideal example, probably because at this point you have refused any evidence of major historic oppression by the Israeli Zionist movement. You dismiss it all.

It's sad how the Jews, victims of the Nazi horror, have now become apartheid state oppressors and like you, justifying genocide way too easily. It's sick really.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
I see pro-genocide posting in this thread by people who provide misleading information on the history of the Zionist creation of the Holy Land of Israel via the worst kind of colonialist power instincts possible, act like the Palestinians are all at fault, which is obscene and disgusting. That seems to be making a lot of people upset.

He used a less than ideal example, probably because at this point you have refused any evidence of major historic oppression by the Israeli Zionist movement. You dismiss it all.

It's sad how the Jews, victims of the Nazi horror, have now become apartheid state oppressors and like you, justifying genocide way too easily. It's sick really.

Yes, yes, "the Jews" are just like the Nazis now. Hey Perknose, you see what people are saying in this thread and why I'm reacting this way?

OK, I've been avoiding the vile swill you've posted in this thread. So let's start out this way: please supply me with the definition of "genocide" you are employing in this thread.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,107
2,376
136
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with
intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as
such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part;

 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,296
6,354
126
Yes, yes, "the Jews" are just like the Nazis now. Hey Perknose, you see what people are saying in this thread and why I'm reacting this way?

OK, I've been avoiding the vile swill you've posted in this thread. So let's start out this way: please supply me with the definition of "genocide" you are employing in this thread.
Are there any conditions present in the daily lives of the Palestinian people that creates the impression to the Palestinians and the outside world of an apartheid state? Just look at the facts on the ground and not how you might justify it. It seems so obvious to me there is bias in your point of view and not so much with mine. I have no historic or personal ties, emotional or otherwise, to one side or the other.
 
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Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,572
9,945
146
Yes, yes, "the Jews" are just like the Nazis now. Hey Perknose, you see what people are saying in this thread and why I'm reacting this way?
To this poster, yes. Though engaging with his posts, rhetoric for rhetoric, leaves the discourse on his level, angry and unyielding. Is that where you want to be?

There is more than enough hurt and blame to go 'round for everyone involved. That's the tragedy of this situation. It is existential for both Jews and Palestinians. And violent extremists on both sides have come to rule the conflict. An eye for an eye until everyone goes blind.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Article II
In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with
intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as
such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its
physical destruction in whole or in part;


OK, you're a different poster, but I will pick it up from here. This definition seems awfully broad, does it not? I mean, how many countries have "killed members of a group" or "caused serious bodily injury or mental harm to a group"? According to that definition, it's just about every country in the world. With that definition, sure Israel is guilty of genocide, and so is every other country. That definition renders the word meaningless.

Let me point out one unassailable fact here, Palestinian population has grown from 1.5 million in 1990 to 5 million in 2023. Furthermore, it's annual growth rate has been pretty stable at 2.5%, and it's population has grown at an even incline for over 20 years. There aren't even any blips on the graph for years they had wars in Gaza. Because the number of deaths was too small to even register on a population wide scale.


By contrast, the current population growth in the United States is .38%.

So tell me how a genocide, or even a so-called "slow genocide" can be in progress when the targeted population is growing by leaps and bounds. I suppose you think Israel is attempting genocide but they're just really bad at it, eh?

Should I mention that the Nazis killed 5.5-6 million Jews in 4 years, and that this was one third of the world's entire Jewish population? Or we could talk about other genocides, like in Rwanda, where the Hutu's killed over 500,000 Tutsi's in just 100 days.

I think genocide comes down to intent, while actions on the ground are evidence of the intent or lack thereof. Israel is well capable of causing a genocide, whether fast or slow, but the facts say they have no intent to do so.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,114
136
To this poster, yes. Though engaging with his posts, rhetoric for rhetoric, leaves the discourse on his level, angry and unyielding. Is that where you want to be?

There is more than enough hurt and blame to go 'round for everyone involved. That's the tragedy of this situation. It is existential for both Jews and Palestinians. And violent extremists on both sides have come to rule the conflict. An eye for an eye until everyone goes blind.

Yeah, I avoided his vicious posts for the entire thread for that exact reason. But he finally went and replied to one of mine, so...
 
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