Israel: We Are At War

[darkswordsman17]

A bit of History

1516 - The Ottomans invade and occupy the area of Palestine.
After the end of the first World War in 1918, those lands were ruled by the British empire.
So up to 1947 and the UN Partition Plan for Palestine, there was not a Palestine as a free Country.

The British in 1947 wanted to give the land they owned to both the Arabs and create a country for the Israelites , especially after WW II and the holocausts.

Since the Arabs in the Palestine NEVER had a free country since 1516 , they could have a free Palestine with Israel next to them, but they refused and went to war in 1948.
What you and everyone else will have to understand here is that Hamas and all the other Palestinian organizations fight to destroy Israel, they dont fight in order to create a new and free country.

So to stop the bullshit once and for all, it is the Palestinians that need to understand that they can never destroy Israel and occupy all the land for themselves. They need to come to terms with reality and understand that almost all the other Arab countries are beginning to acknowledge Israel as a country in the region and it is only the Palestinians that suffer for almost 70 years with hardship and they have the opportunity to change that. THEY need to make peace with Israel and then create a new Palestine free country that they will live peacefully with every neighbor country in the region including Israel.

Take your own bullshit and cram it right back up your ass.

Israel needs to understand that them destroying Palestine and Palestinians makes them no better than the Nazis. Granted based on your shit grasp of history, you probably are like "Israel is making Palestinians that they forced into camps wear numbered bracelets, that's a totally fine thing that has no alarming parallel situation in history!"

Wait, talk about needing a history lesson. Palestinians are the only Arabs suffering hardships over the last 70 years?

They tried living in peace with Israel, but Israel made sure they would know no peace. I'd also like to know what country that would be since Israel is intent on taking every bit of Palestinian land, leaving them with no country. But somehow they need to just go live in la-la land and be good friendly neighbors with Israel. And by neighbors, seems you mean, I don't know, Mars? How about they come live in your house, mr genteel friendly neighbor man!

Literally every argument you can make for why Palestinians need to just suck it up and deal can be applied to Israel. Only, Israel has murdered far more Palestinians than the opposite, so if that's your rationale for why its ok for Israel to do this, then you're either a complete fucking moron or a hypocrite to not see that you're justifying everything that Hamas is doing with your logic.

I hope you realize the primary reason why other Arab countries buddied up to Israel is because of the US who has a history of invading and fucking up Arab countries that don't agree with them. A good portion of that came with American investment and establishment of US military operations in their country (often in preparation for the US invading other neighboring Arab countries; you do realize that was a not at all subtle way of intimidating them directly, right? Like literally was part of the playbook of people like old Bush and the other psychopaths that ran the CIA for decades). Essentially Israel and other Arab states are the siblings that stop fighting after dad comes home, takes off his belt and goes "who started this?" with Israel being the favored child so whenever they point to the Arab one, they tend to get the belt. Except for Saudi Arabia who, despite having stabbed dad that one time, doesn't really face any punishment either (but also doesn't pick on Israel to test out which one gets the belt), probably because he also gets dad that sweet black tar heroin that he needs so bad.

 

[KMFJD]

if only...good idea though

https://twitter.com/x/status/1721898082097602830

https://twitter.com/x/status/1721729852712063045

 

[amenx]

I dont think this can go on for much longer without Israel eventually losing support from even its strongest supporters. Former Israeli PM Ehud Barak makes this point.

Israel has only weeks to defeat Hamas as global opinion sours, former PM Ehud Barak says

Ex-military chief also suggested a multinational Arab force could have to take control in Gaza to help transition away from Hamas.

www.politico.eu

 

[KMFJD]

If a serious accusation without evidence is a lie worse than most kinds of lies, what do you consider calling someone a bigot without any evidence to back it up?

There have been numerous examples of the Israeli government lying. I even gave you one when you went on your tangent when the hospital was bombed. I showed you a now deleted tweet by one of Netanyahu's press people claiming credit and giving a rational for bombing the hospital, before the IDF claimed they didn't bomb the hospital. I asked you which one should I believe and you never responded. Or, just go back to how Israel reflexively handled the death of Shireen Abu Akleh. They initially denied they shot her and then they went as far as to manipulate videos to blame Hamas, before backtracking due to public pressure. And she was an American. But, I don't think any evidence of Israel lying would be enough for you. It's odd, this naïve believe that Nation States don't attempt to manipulate public sentiment. I wonder does that belief only hold true for Israel and if so, why?

I think everyone is concerned about the increase of incidents of antisemitism and any associated violence. There are people out there who genuinely do hate Jewish people just for existing. I'm not one. My issue with Israel, is that a powerful country uses it's power to abuse those without and not only isn't held unaccountable by the US, but propped up by the US. And since I'm an American, that means me. I once thought that's what Democrats stood for. And ground zero in that, is the Israeli government arming settlers who still today take Palestinian land and are protected by that same Israeli government. But, I went back to look up the definition of antisemitism and was shocked at the broadness of it. A definition which would seem contrary to Free Speech defined by the constitution. I can say I believe the US was/is a racist country but saying the same about Israel would mean I am antisemitic? Do you think that is appropriate?

Btw, I haven't been keeping up with this thread. Did Netanyahu release the evidence of the 40 beheaded children yet?

Haaretz has a list of supposedly all the names that have been released so far. It lists 1154 people.
https://www.haaretz.co.il/news/2023-10-12/ty-article-magazine/0000018b-1367-dcc2-a99b-17779a0a0000

Ynet has a list with 1141 names.
https://names2023war.ynet.co.il/?search=&sort[lastName]=1&limit=102&offset=0

1. According to the Israeli government, 1400+ people died on October 7th.
2. The Haaretz list is split into 4 catagories - 59 dead cops, 13 dead rescue workers, 769 dead civillians and 310 dead soldiers.
3. These lists are NOT only for the victims of Al-Aqsa flood, they include newer casualties as well. For example, both of them list the cop that got stabbed in Jerusalem yesterday, the Rabbi who's tank flipped and more.

 

[Racan]

A true resolution to the war Hamas started is for Gaza to become a provenience of Israel. Absorb the people and rebuild under Israeli security, rather than Hamas terrorism. There is no peaceful alternative.

Absorb over 2 million Palestinians? Preserving a comfortable Jewish majority is the no. one priority for Israel so that will never happen.

 

[AtenRa]

Yes, we're in agreement: The British stole land from the Palestinians and then wanted to "give" it to someone else. The Palestinians at the time had a problem with this, unsurprisingly.

From 1516 when Ottomans occupied Palestine region , since 1918 that the British took it from the Ottomans , there were no Palestinians but Arabs, Jews and Christians in this area. So the British stole nothing from the Palestinians because Palestinians (Arabs) didnt own any land in this region at the time.

Ok, but given that land was taken from Palestinians and Israel continues to take more land from them among other things, does the attitude of such organisations surprise you in the slightest?

Again, the only time that land was taken from Palestinians (the name Palestinians is associated to the Arabs that lived in the Palestine region after 1947 ) was when Israel was attacked from the Arabs in 1948/1967 and Israel was in defence.

And for those that dont know, the region that we now call Palestine (from the Greek name of the Philistines land around 12th century bce) is a region that also includes the land of ancient Israel. So the Jews have every right to have a country in that region. Also to remember that Jews agreed with the UN resolution 181 (Palestine Plan of Partition) back in 1947, it was the Arabs that didnt recognized the UN Resolution and it was the Arabs that attacked Israel the first day of its existence. Israel doesnt oppose to a Palestinian country formed from the Gaza strip and West Bank. It is the Palestinians that oppose the right of the Jews to have a country in the region of their forefathers.

One more thing, did you know that Gaza Strip was occupied in the 1948 war from Egypt ??? The Egyptians stole the land from the Palestinians until the 1967 war when Israel on defence again occupied Gaza and drove away the Egyptians. Then Israel gave Gaza back to Palestinians and Hamas took over and transformed Gaza in to a shit hole.

 

[mikeymikec]

From 1516 when Ottomans occupied Palestine region , since 1918 that the British took it from the Ottomans , there were no Palestinians but Arabs, Jews and Christians in this area. So the British stole nothing from the Palestinians because Palestinians (Arabs) didnt own any land in this region.

Christ, the games you want to play in order to peddle your narrative while ignoring the points I've made.

It does not matter if you want to call them Arabs or Palestinians, just be honest in your argument and we might get somewhere. No more word games.

Mandatory Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The British did not claim unoccupied land. People lived there.

Again, the only time that land was taken from Palestinians (the name Palestinians is associated to the Arabs that lived in the Palestine region after 1947 ) was when Israel was attacked from the Arabs in 1948/1967 and Israel was in defence.

Here's some recent examples:

Israeli settlement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

One rule for the Israelis, another rule for the Palestinians.

 

[Jaskalas]

2 wrongs don't make a right.

What "wrong" do you object to?

• Peace?
• Gaza being secured and absorbed?

You will never have one without the other. Hamas has seen to that.
Their massacre was an escalatory declaration of war that must be answered by regime change. And whatever cost in lives that Hamas imposes for that, it must be paid.
Or all of this will just happen again.

That Hamas exists will cost many lives. Correct that error and the people of Gaza, those who survive, will know peace.

I dare you to think of any alternative that does not require a delusion that Hamas will behave in the future. Oct 7th must conclude with Hamas's demise. Gaza belongs to Israel now. Or there will never be peace.

 

[Jaskalas]

Absorb over 2 million Palestinians? Preserving a comfortable Jewish majority is the no. one priority for Israel so that will never happen.

Allow them to control their own security, and they arm themselves to the teeth and make for war and blood.
Someone else must secure that land and keep it disarmed.

Israel is the ideal choice, especially as no one else is willing to do it.
If Israel does not wish to do it, then many more Palestinians and Israelis will die in future conflict.

 

[AtenRa]

The British did not claim unoccupied land. People lived there.

They lived as citizens of the Ottoman empire, people living in the area didnt have a country of their own, so when the British took the land from the Ottomans they stole nothing from the people living in the area. The only accurate thing we can say is that the British stole the land from the Ottomans.

Here's some recent examples:

Israeli settlement - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_settler_violence

One rule for the Israelis, another rule for the Palestinians.

Yes, after the Arabs attacked Israel in 1967 and Israel won they claimed those lands. It is very important here to distinguish that Israel was the defender and the Arabs were the Attackers, Israel just kept the land they occupied after they were attacked from the Arabs. They have every right to keep the land they occupied being in defence.

 

[mikeymikec]

They lived as citizens of the Ottoman empire, people living in the area didnt have a country of their own, so when the British took the land from the Ottomans they stole nothing from the people living in the area. The only accurate thing we can say is that the British stole the land from the Ottomans.

To say that people living on land for multiple generations didn't really own it and use that as justification to give it to someone else is a level of bullshit I see as completely pointless to continue arguing with. It's also a bullshit argument that could be far more easily applied to the Israelis and their bullshit Zionist entitlement complex.

Yes, after the Arabs attacked Israel in 1967 and Israel won they claimed those lands. It is very important here to distinguish that Israel was the defender and the Arabs were the Attackers, Israel just kept the land they occupied after they were attacked from the Arabs. They have every right to keep the land they occupied being in defence.

I can't tell whether you even bothered to read the wiki articles I posted or whether you are viewing everything through a Zionist bullshit lens just like the rabbis in those articles claimed that everything there belongs to Israel anyway, and that killing a Palestinian girl is OK because she might grow up to be your enemy.

There is no compatible ground for a discussion here.

 

[amenx]

Yes, after the Arabs attacked Israel in 1967 and Israel won they claimed those lands. It is very important here to distinguish that Israel was the defender and the Arabs were the Attackers, Israel just kept the land they occupied after they were attacked from the Arabs. They have every right to keep the land they occupied being in defence.

Where the fck you get this shit? You're so out of touch with the history of the I/P conflict as well as UN resolutions and int'l law its ridiculous.

 

[brycejones]

Allow them to control their own security, and they arm themselves to the teeth and make for war and blood.
Someone else must secure that land and keep it disarmed.

Israel is the ideal choice, especially as no one else is willing to do it.
If Israel does not wish to do it, then many more Palestinians and Israelis will die in future conflict.

Who knew that keeping 2 million people locked up in basically a giant concentration camp could lead to violent outcomes….

Israel has no desire to “absorb” 2M non Jews. Your brilliant idea is an absolute non-starter and completely ignores the reality of Israeli politics. The only long term solution is the two state solution but that would mean that Israel would have to give up the land it has taken in the West Bank over the last 3 decades. I don’t see that as viable in Israeli politics either.

Unfortunately I think after the current blood bath is over the stage is just being set for the next spasm of violence in another 10-15 years.

 

[Oric]

They lived as citizens of the Ottoman empire, people living in the area didnt have a country of their own, so when the British took the land from the Ottomans they stole nothing from the people living in the area. The only accurate thing we can say is that the British stole the land from the Ottomans.

Actually the Arab population of the region revolted against the Ottomans willingly and supported the British. 100+ years later, their grand-grand children are paying for this decision.

 

[HomerJS]

I suggest for anyone trying to understand this complicated quagmire spend sometime reviewing the history of that region. I mean all the way back to WW1.

This didn’t start with Hamas on Oct 7

 

[Greenman]

I dont think this can go on for much longer without Israel eventually losing support from even its strongest supporters. Former Israeli PM Ehud Barak makes this point.

Israel has only weeks to defeat Hamas as global opinion sours, former PM Ehud Barak says

Ex-military chief also suggested a multinational Arab force could have to take control in Gaza to help transition away from Hamas.

www.politico.eu

All that needs to happen is for Hamas to surrender.

 

[brycejones]

All that needs to happen is for Hamas to surrender.

Until then you're cool with Israel violating the laws of war and mass civilian casualties?

I have no issue with Israel going after Hamas, but yes to do it so they don't kill tens of thousands of civilians is going to be really fucking hard and require tens of thousands of troops on the ground doing really dangerous shit.

 

[Brovane]

Until then you're cool with Israel violating the laws of war and mass civilian casualties?

I have no issue with Israel going after Hamas, but yes to do it so they don't kill tens of thousands of civilians is going to be really fucking hard and require tens of thousands of troops on the ground doing really dangerous shit.

Whose laws of war? The UN's?

 

[brycejones]

Whose laws of war? The UN's?

Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Convention.

 

[KMFJD]

Actually the Arab population of the region revolted against the Ottomans willingly and supported the British. 100+ years later, their grand-grand children are paying for this decision.

I was reading a tweet from Bela Hadid's father sharing their family history, in the 1940's they welcomed in a Jewish family fleeing the Nazi's into their home for over 2 years only for them to turn around and kick them out of their family home.

 

[Brovane]

Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Convention.

When Hamas uses a Hospital basement as their HQ's the Hospital is no longer a protected site under the Geneva Convention.
You can claim that Israel is violating the Geneva Convention but with how Hamas fights and embeds itself in the Civilian population of Gaza means that the claims that Israel is violating the rules of war quickly fall apart because of the actions of Hamas.

 

[KMFJD]

Israel is a signatory to the Geneva Convention.

Many countries signed that, few live up to it

 

[brycejones]

Many countries signed that, few live up to it

Unfortunately this is true.

 

[brycejones]

When Hamas uses a Hospital basement as their HQ's the Hospital is no longer a protected site under the Geneva Convention.
You can claim that Israel is violating the Geneva Convention but with how Hamas fights and embeds itself in the Civilian population of Gaza means that the claims that Israel is violating the rules of war quickly fall apart because of the actions of Hamas.

1. You're accepting a claim at face value. I honestly don't know if it's accurate or not and I am not making a judgement on it, but clearly you already have.
2. Telling people to "evacuate to x area" and then when they do bombing x area is more than a little problematic.
3. Telling people to evacuate who really have no real ability to do so is problematic.
4. I personally have an expectation that a nation state who has far more military capabilities than their opponent to go a step beyond. If Israel ever wants the cycle of violence to end they really have no choice.
5. Killing tens of thousands of civilians will NOT serve Israel's long term strategic goals.

 

[Brovane]

Until then you're cool with Israel violating the laws of war and mass civilian casualties?

I have no issue with Israel going after Hamas, but yes to do it so they don't kill tens of thousands of civilians is going to be really fucking hard and require tens of thousands of troops on the ground doing really dangerous shit.

1. You're accepting a claim at face value. I honestly don't know if it's accurate or not and I am not making a judgement on it, but clearly you already have.
2. Telling people to "evacuate to x area" and then when they do bombing x area is more than a little problematic.
3. Telling people to evacuate who really have no real ability to do so is problematic.
4. I personally have an expectation that a nation state who has far more military capabilities than their opponent to go a step beyond. If Israel ever wants the cycle of violence to end they really have no choice.
5. Killing tens of thousands of civilians will NOT serve Israel's long term strategic goals.

You clearly already have already made a judgement that Israel is violating the laws of war.
As far as Hamas and using Hospitals as cover. Hamas has already shown that it doesn't follow any laws of war. So yes, I think Hamas is using Hospitals as HQ's because of other actions they have taken. Hamas has been pulling this type of stuff for a long time.