Israel: We Are At War

[Pens1566]

YnetNews - Bias and Credibility

LEFT-CENTER BIAS These media sources have a slight to moderate liberal bias. They often publish factual information that utilizes loaded words (wording

mediabiasfactcheck.com

Ynet - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-14629611 (first one Yediot Aharonot (Latest News) - Tel Aviv-based, widely-read daily)

https://cdn.fedweb.org/fed-110/2/The_Top_7_Israeli_News_Sources_in_English.pdf

i could go on.....and on

Good for them. It still does nothing to address any of the following:

1) Nothing in the video indicates it's from the festival location
2) Again, night vision in a daytime event
3) Goes against the other streamed videos (that were contemporaneous) from the actual concert goers where they hid for hours (more daytime) before seeing help from IDF
4) How convenient it is that the video somehow made it's way out from IDF (ignoring all of 1-3)

So, congratulations?

 

[KMFJD]

for those without a translator, this is what it says (not perfect) ~

The Air Force began summarizing the events of the surprise attack that started the war in Gaza, and it appears that the fog of battle accompanied not only the fighters on the ground, but also the air crews that were launched into the skies of the Western Negev in the first hours of Black Sabbath.
The first pair of combat helicopters that were on immediate alert for the Gaza Division arrived at Otef about an hour or more after the events began, around 8:00-7:30, from the Ramat David camp in the north. This is despite the fact that the mother squadrons of the Apache helicopters are in Camp Ramon, which is closer to the Gaza Strip. Bermon quickly realized that something unusual was developing and brought up, with the commander of the 190 squadron Lt. Col. A himself, a combat helicopter that arrived at Otef at 8:32

After the pilots realized that there was tremendous difficulty in distinguishing within the occupied outposts and settlements who was a terrorist and who was a soldier or civilian, a decision was made that the first mission of the combat helicopters and the armed Zik drones was to stop the flow of terrorists and the murderous mob that poured into Israeli territory through the gaps in the fence. 28 combat helicopters fired over the course of a day The fighting all the ammunition in their stomachs, in rearming rounds. These are hundreds of 30 mm cannon shells (the effect of a spray grenade for each shell) as well as the Hellfire missiles. The rate of fire against the thousands of terrorists was tremendous at first, and only at a certain point did the pilots begin to slow down the attacks and carefully select the targets.


The Hamas army, it turns out, deliberately made it difficult for the helicopter pilots and the operators of the UAVs: in the investigation it became clear that the invading forces were asked in the last briefings to walk slowly into the settlements and outposts or within them, and under no circumstances to run, in order to make the pilots think they were Israelis. This deception worked for a considerable time , until the Apache pilots realized that they had to skip all the restrictions. It was only around 9:00 a.m. that some of them began to spray the terrorists with the cannons on their own, without authorization from superiors

The air activity on the first day was not organized, but even in the sky the pilots improvised solutions to the complicated and unprecedented situation: a large part of the fire direction and receiving the targets from the forces fighting in the field reached the pilots through phone calls or sending pictures on WhatsApp. Against the backdrop of the huge number of murdered and kidnapped people, the Air Force is convinced that if it weren't for the aid fire and the many attacks carried out by IDF helicopter gunships that day - the carnage would have been much greater.


Another step that helped in the early hours for the air force commanders to understand the seriousness of the incident occurred around 10:00 am, after the commander of the 190 squadron, Lt. Col. A., got off his helicopter in Ramon to re-arm and refuel. He downloaded the full photo film recorded by the helicopter's camera and quickly transmitted it to the corps headquarters In Kriya. In less than 20 minutes he was in the air again, and using the information he produced he directed the other air fighters to shoot at everything they see in the fence area, and at one point he also attacked an IDF post with besieged soldiers to help the fighters of the 13th Fleet attack it and free it

In one of the cases, as part of the lifting of the restrictions he undertook, he shot at a range of only 20 meters from the houses of one of the kibbutzim to cover the deputy commander of Division 80 who was jumped from the Sinai sector and killed four terrorists in a fierce battle. According to the Air Force, in the first four hours from the start of the fighting, helicopters and fighter jets attacked about 300 targets, most of them in Israeli territory.
On the ninth day of the war (Sunday), the Air Force is focused on an effort to eliminate senior Hamas officials at the same time as preparing its massive part for a ground entry. The army did not address the possibility of the dilemma that would arise in attacking targets where the top of Hamas are hiding - such as Muhammad Daf or Yahya Sinwar - with Israeli hostages next to them as human shields



The Air Force is working to create a new buffer between Israel and the Gaza Strip, up to three kilometers wide, and to encourage the Gazans to move south in anticipation of the heavy damage that will be inflicted on the city and the northern towns. The systemic idea according to which the Air Force is now operating is "the destruction of the military, movement and governmental capabilities of the terrorist organizations in the Gaza Strip that threaten Israel". The pilots were instructed to act calmly and professionally, with an organized operational and intelligence logic behind each of the thousands of attacks carried out so far.

Now the air effort is invested as mentioned in Gaza, but on high alert for the days of battle that are already underway in the north. The IDF explains that the Air Force is trained and equipped to deal with two arenas at the same time, but the preference is to focus on one main arena. For example, the Air Force does not automatically attack every Hezbollah anti-aircraft launcher that fires a missile at Israeli drones.

At the same time, the IDF has been recognizing for some time a major effort by Iran to transport advanced weapons for Hezbollah in Lebanon. According to foreign publications, it was the Air Force that attacked the Syrian airports in Aleppo and Damascus in recent days and disabled them, as well as large weapons convoys on their way to Lebanon.

The commander of the Air Force, Major General Tomer Bar, commented on the events of the first day and said: "There are many heroic stories of fighters on the ground. The pilots killed many terrorists and helicopters brought fighters to the battlefield while facing fire at them. We are proud of them and the reservists who prove the strength of the IDF and IDF The air. We investigate every day, and improve every day

Regarding a possible ground entry, he said: "We are preparing the arena for an effective maneuver as possible and removing as many threats as possible from the ground and the air in order to give the fighters operational freedom of action. We are currently focusing on the southern arena but are highly prepared for any development that may occur in the north as well

4) How convenient it is that the video somehow made it's way out from IDF (ignoring all of 1-3)

This i do find rather odd and raises a whole new set of questions


No idea about point 2, maybe someone with some experience could explain/make sense, as for point 1 i'm sure some osint autist will come along to prove or disprove the locations

 

[KMFJD]

Yemen's Houthi's launched some scuds and Israel appears to have intercepted them (engaging in the first space battle?)

Israel intercepts projectile over Jordan as Iranian-backed Houthis claim to target Eilat

***

www.haaretz.com

(that was a live update so it might not show up? screenshot below)

 

[VRAMdemon]

Again, if you can't understand the shit being said in this thread that is essentially defending this genocide and the Israeli aggression, whether morally and/or legally, there is no discussing this with you. You don't exist in reality in this thread. You seem reasonable in other threads but a lot of people go cuckoo when it comes to Israel and Palestine, so you wouldn't be the first by any means. In this case, by blowing up at me for merely pointing out the reality here.

I don't count the number of likes as a meaning of anything, but I do count the likes of who I see as reasonable posters, who are bright and perceptive, but maybe a bit less rough around the edges with me. I think being judged by your peers is indeed a measuring stick, and if you can't grasp that, that again is your problem, not mine.

Get a grip, you're losing it.

I'm going to like all your posts from now on too.

No troll, my calling out your bullshit snarl words, statements, and projection has nothing to do with Israel\Palestine threads. You attacked me in another thread a while back with your projection and cute little snarl words like "sicko", "scum" and "your kind". That was a BIG fucking mistake. I don't post here every day, and when I do, I don't personally attack someone with cowardly bullshit because they disagree with what I post. It's laughable that someone like you can claim the moral high ground with the toxic dumps you take in here in some posts. Your bullshit will be called out when I see it. Just STFU and post your thoughts like everyone else without the snarly projection personal attacks.

 

[VRAMdemon]

Israel needs to stop the indiscriminate bombing campaigns. Enough is enough. They need to root out Hamas and sympathizers with ground troops. Biden and his advisers need to rethink what they are doing here. Actually ... The best course would be to do nothing. I think Israel has enough munitions without us giving them more. Maybe support the iron dome for defense purposes ONLY. Let the chips fall where they may. That way you can’t be blamed for making the wrong decision, or backing the wrong team. Dither around and talk about peace and understanding, and then just let things happen however they are going to happen. And the US shouldn’t be pulling levers to ensure one side wins and the other side is obliterated.

Biden needs to get his head out of his ass. “Israel’s right to defend itself” is different from “Israel’s right to offensive military action,” though in Orwellian terms we seem to have accepted that “defend” means “attack.” In other words, would it matter if Biden says he supports Israel’s right of self-defense, but not aggressive offense, but it looks like that warship has sailed and it may be impossible to make that distinction in this context. It is deliberately ambiguous language which can serve whatever purpose is needed at the time.

I am saddened and disgusted by the violence that is happening, but that doesn’t mean I’m inherently anti-Israel or anti Palestine. And I'm not particularly fond of the use of “defense” to mean “attack.”

The reality though is if Hamas wouldn't have pulled a Pearl Harbor terrorist attack on civilians at music festivals and the like. (What brave freedom fighters they are ) The people of Gaza would still be alive. The Hamas attack resembled a medieval Mongol raid for slaughter and human trophies - it was fucking recorded in real time and published to social media. Hamas was appointed control of Gaza from the splintered elections of 2006 by the people. Big fucking mistake

Do people really think that if they backed off to the 1967 borders and instituted a Palestinian state that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and the like would be like "ok, all is hunky dory and would just stop calling for the destruction of Israel? Give me a break. Lets put another apartheid state next to another apartheid state with whom the people hate each other. Smart move. Both belong to religions who can't seem to get along and pray to their imaginary deities at the same place without wanting to kill each other. Fucking religion.

 

[VRAMdemon]

It's also interesting whenever there is a terrorist atrocity somewhere in the world, you can count on hearing from the “yes, but” people.

"Yes", it was terrible that hijackers flew planes into the twin towers killing defenseless people just going to work, "but" aggressive U.S. foreign policy stirred up anger in the Muslim world.

"Yes", it was awful that the Irish Republican Army set off a bomb at a crowded pub killing defenseless civilians having a good time, "but" you have to remember how angry Irish Catholics are about their harrasment by Protestant bigots and British soldiers.

"Yes", Vlad Putin was out of line to horribly bomb and pillage Ukrainian cities killing everyone in their path, "but" the West backed him into a corner by expanding NATO.

They always insist they don’t mean to condone violence. No, They just want to help us understand the “root causes” of the atrocity; to explain it; to contextualize and put it in the proper context; to remind us who is truly, ultimately at fault.

Obviously, I'm not arguing that all criticism of Israel is out of bounds. Its critics have every right to say that they think it has mistreated the Palestinians or denied them their rights. Many Israelis say it themselves. Its critics have every right to claim that Israel is reacting disproportionately to the attacks on its citizens and killing innocent Gazans in the process. Many voices are already saying so and they will become louder as the Israeli assault on Hamas escalates. It is certainly acceptable to point out that the divisive, populist rule of Bibi has weakened Israel and made it more vulnerable to this sort of attack. Plenty of Israelis are saying that

What’s bullshit is to imply that in some way Israel deserves, or should have expected, the horror inflicted on it on Oct 7; that the attacked are somehow as guilty as the attackers; that terrorism is just another form of fighting back, a predictable response of the powerless to their oppression. Fuck that shit.

 

[MrSquished]

to be fair, dribbling the hostages out for ceasefires is a bit silly.

Hamas should immediately release all of them immediately. Hamas should never have taken them. Any other stance is morally and ethically wrong.

Arguing otherwise is just enabling terrorism, and encouraging further events like this.

Actually the article said it was a very significant number of hostages for a 5-day ceasefire. Sounds like anything but a dribble but you just like to yap your mouth with no information.

Try to read the articles before you comment like an ignoramus.

It's getting very annoying.

 

[Leeea]

Actually the article said it was a very significant number of hostages for a 5-day ceasefire. Sounds like anything but a dribble but you just like to yap your mouth with no information.

Try to read the articles before you comment like an ignoramus.

It's getting very annoying.

significant number could be 5
or 10
or 20
but certainly is not all.

Hamas needs to release all hostages immediately unconditionally. Hamas should never have taken hostages or committed its acts of terror.

 

[AtenRa]

So what you're saying is, they helped the British defeat the Ottoman empire, then the British said everything the Palestinians own belongs to the British now... this is an arrangement which you think is just and fair? It seems to me that the Palestinians had a foreign power ruling over them only to be replaced by another foreign power.

Yes that is correct, but when you say Palestinians in 1916-1918 , we have to remind that there were Muslims , Jews and Christians living in this same area.

Then the British said that they'll only leave and give up control if the Palestinians give away over half their land and let some other group of people have it.... this is an arrangement which you think is just and fair?

When the UN Partition of Palestine was issued in 1947, there were over half a million Jews and over 100K Christians in the region we call Palestine.
I dont know if the percentage of the partition was fair or not, but the Jews had the same right to have a country as much as the Muslims.

Then when the Palestinians weren't keen on this whole arrangement, they objected (which is an expression of freedom)... this is the bit that you think is unreasonable and unjust?

There is a differentiation between Objecting to something with peaceful means and diplomacy and another thing is to Object by attacking someone. Israelis used UN resolution 181 (partition of Palestine) to create a new Israel State and they were immediately attacked by all the Arabs around them, not only the Palestinians. Yes I find this to be unreasonable , the Palestinians since then have lost the opportunity to create a new Palestinian state and live peaceful with all the neighbors in the area. In stead they chose to fight Israel and the Jews because they wanted the entire area for themselves.

Dont you believe that the Jews had the right to create a state in the land of their forefathers much like the Arabs had and still have the right to have their own state in the area ????

It seems to me that you believe that someone who tries to force you to agree to a single and only option in a plan that's been determined without your involvement is freedom. It's not. If you're being forced to live with a group of people (who also believe they're entitled to your land!), that's not freedom.

No, what Im saying is that both the Arabs and the Jews have the right of creating their own state in the area, the problem is that some people believe that the Jews stole the land from the Arabs and forced them out by force which is not entirely correct. Yes both parties have attacked each other over the years and nobody here says that Jews were the saints and did everything by the book and civilized but the same applies to the Arabs as well. The thing is that everyone have to acknowledge the right of Jews to have their own state in the lands they once lived , especially the Palestinians and come to terms with this for their own good.

 

[mikeymikec]

It's also interesting whenever there is a terrorist atrocity somewhere in the world, you can count on hearing from the “yes, but” people.

"Yes", it was terrible that hijackers flew planes into the twin towers killing defenseless people just going to work, "but" aggressive U.S. foreign policy stirred up anger in the Muslim world.

"Yes", it was awful that the Irish Republican Army set off a bomb at a crowded pub killing defenseless civilians having a good time, "but" you have to remember how angry Irish Catholics are about their harrasment by Protestant bigots and British soldiers.

"Yes", Vlad Putin was out of line to horribly bomb and pillage Ukrainian cities killing everyone in their path, "but" the West backed him into a corner by expanding NATO.

They always insist they don’t mean to condone violence. No, They just want to help us understand the “root causes” of the atrocity; to explain it; to contextualize and put it in the proper context; to remind us who is truly, ultimately at fault.

Obviously, I'm not arguing that all criticism of Israel is out of bounds. Its critics have every right to say that they think it has mistreated the Palestinians or denied them their rights. Many Israelis say it themselves. Its critics have every right to claim that Israel is reacting disproportionately to the attacks on its citizens and killing innocent Gazans in the process. Many voices are already saying so and they will become louder as the Israeli assault on Hamas escalates. It is certainly acceptable to point out that the divisive, populist rule of Bibi has weakened Israel and made it more vulnerable to this sort of attack. Plenty of Israelis are saying that

What’s bullshit is to imply that in some way Israel deserves, or should have expected, the horror inflicted on it on Oct 7; that the attacked are somehow as guilty as the attackers; that terrorism is just another form of fighting back, a predictable response of the powerless to their oppression. Fuck that shit.

You've thrown some bullshit examples in there in an attempt to make your point, especially the Putin one, and I think that's pretty disingenuous of you.

I think MLK made the counter-argument pretty well about moderates calling for the black people to "wait until the time is right" to receive justice and equality and how moderates value order over justice and complain about the manner in which they call for justice.

Letter from a Birmingham Jail [King, Jr.]

www.africa.upenn.edu

The world has proven that it doesn't give two shits about the Palestinians for over a century. You acknowledge that the Palestinians have a valid grievance. To me it's an obvious fact that when grievances go unaddressed and conditions for a people continue to worsen, violence is inevitable. To me it's the height of hypocrisy to create a problem, watch it worsen and ignore pleas for help, then complain about the outcome.

I don't think a single person here has said that innocent people deserve to die on either side, and I would vehemently disagree with them if they did.

IMO: Violence is never a good thing. It maims those who commit the violence as well as the more obvious victims of violence; to become increasingly indifferent to the suffering that one has caused does damage to a human that is hard to reverse, and the more that one resorts to violence, that person is more likely to look at more situations and believe that violence is the correct solution (to a person holding a hammer, every problem looks like a nail). The more scars that are raked across people, across land, the harder it will become to go back to peace.

Furthermore, because the world has been run by arseholes since forever who don't listen to valid grievances, freedom is often successfully earned through violence because there was no other way.

 

[cytg111]

Matter of fact is that Israel has pissed away a gigantic opportunity to defeat its enemies in this conflict, as justified as Israel is at defending itself from terrorist actions, it still pissed this opportunity of benevolence kindness and mercy away. It is reserved for the superior might, the superior force to wield mercy, it is the only place it can come from, a position of superior might. Israel *is* this might, this superior force, even nuclear force. Israel could have behaved as an armed EMT service and extended an Olive tree to the people of Gaza while avoiding collateral damage to its fullest.

But no. Israel was goaded into this bullshit. Played like a fiddle. How very ordinary how very predictable.

Why do I always hope for more, better.

 

[mikeymikec]

Yes that is correct,

Wow, ok. Your notion of justice is fucked up. You think it's OK for people to fight for their freedom, defeat their oppressor, and then not have freedom. If you were one of those Palestinians and you knew that the British intended to withhold your freedom, would you have agreed to risk your life for their cause?

but when you say Palestinians in 1916-1918 , we have to remind that there were Muslims , Jews and Christians living in this same area.

Yes, I'm aware.

When the UN Partition of Palestine was issued in 1947, there were over half a million Jews and over 100K Christians in the region we call Palestine.
I dont know if the percentage of the partition was fair or not, but the Jews had the same right to have a country as much as the Muslims.

Well if you don't know if the partition was fair then you shouldn't be using it as your justification for your opinion. Maybe come back when you've actually read sufficiently from reasonably reputable sources!

But I think you have read up a bit but through a biased lens, because when you cited population figures you just to gloss over this one:

United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

A British census of 1918 estimated 700,000 Arabs and 56,000 Jews.

And you chose to omit what the Arab population was in 1947:

Demographic history of Palestine (region) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

1.18m Arabs compared to 630k Jews. Someone who hasn't read up sufficiently might think that the Jews did some prodigious amounts of breeding to increase their population by 10x in ~30 years, but no.

The British knew that allowing lots of extra people to enter Palestine would cause problems:

With World War II looming, British policies were influenced by a desire to win Arab world support and could ill afford to engage with another Arab uprising.[41] The MacDonald White Paper of May 1939 declared that it was "not part of [the British government's] policy that Palestine should become a Jewish State", sought to limit Jewish immigration to Palestine and restricted Arab land sales to Jews. However, the League of Nations commission held that the White Paper was in conflict with the terms of the Mandate as put forth in the past. The outbreak of the Second World War suspended any further deliberations.

The British allowed the flow of over 100k Jewish people into Palestine after WW2:

After World War II, in August 1945 President Truman asked for the admission of 100,000 Holocaust survivors into Palestine[44] but the British maintained limits on Jewish immigration in line with the 1939 White Paper. The Jewish community rejected the restriction on immigration and organized an armed resistance. These actions and United States pressure to end the anti-immigration policy led to the establishment of the Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry. In April 1946, the Committee reached a unanimous decision for the immediate admission of 100,000 Jewish refugees from Europe into Palestine

An ARMED RESISTANCE! Jewish people doing that? Don't you have something to say about that? Ah yes, here we are:

There is a differentiation between Objecting to something with peaceful means and diplomacy and another thing is to Object by attacking someone.

LOL.

The fact of the matter is that the "civilised world" dumped "the Jewish problem" onto the Palestinians purely for selfish ends, Zionism was just an excuse. No-one wanted to take in any refugees, let alone those kinds of numbers - which frankly even if you divided the figure by 100 it would have any conservative anywhere in the world coming out in hives and telling us that they're here to rob us and rape our women - and in your opinion the Palestinian people were supposed to be cool with having over half their land allocated without their input to a group of people that had been vastly and artificially inflated by the "civilised world". Furthermore these people were refugees so they would need more help to get on their feet than a completely prepared and willing immigrant.

Israelis used UN resolution 181 (partition of Palestine) to create a new Israel State and they were immediately attacked by all the Arabs around them, not only the Palestinians. Yes I find this to be unreasonable , the Palestinians since then have lost the opportunity to create a new Palestinian state and live peaceful with all the neighbors in the area. In stead they chose to fight Israel and the Jews because they wanted the entire area for themselves.

So when the Jewish people use violence to get what they want, it's OK, but if the Palestinian people have a problem with the population of Palestine being near-doubled by the rest of the world dumping refugees it should have taken in and instead made them the Palestinians' problem and their country being carved up without them having any say in it, it's not OK.

You sir are a hypocrite.

Dont you believe that the Jews had the right to create a state in the land of their forefathers much like the Arabs had and still have the right to have their own state in the area ????

Wow, this is a heck of a loaded question.

The Jewish people displaced by the Holocaust deserve to have homes, I wouldn't bother questioning that for a moment. The simple solution is that they should have got their homes back in Europe, but given that they were only gone from their homes maybe for a few years at most and that clearly wasn't feasible, the idea that they supposedly deserve some other bit of land that they have never called home let alone their parents, grandparents etc for many generations, AND that land has been lived on by people who have called it home for many generations, and literally the only reason why Zionism calls Palestine Israel is because their people lived there many, many centuries before is a delusional level of entitlement.

Imagine if Native Americans suddenly decided that they deserve all of "the land of their forefathers" back, not only that but they believe that they should rule over all others living in those lands. That's basically what Zionists believe. It's absolutely batshit crazy.

As I've said already in this thread, I sympathise with the idea of Zionism, but as soon as I factor in that they think they're entitled to what belongs to other people in order to achieve their aims, they can get fucked.

No, what Im saying is that both the Arabs and the Jews have the right of creating their own state in the area, the problem is that some people believe that the Jews stole the land from the Arabs and forced them out by force which is not entirely correct. Yes both parties have attacked each other over the years and nobody here says that Jews were the saints and did everything by the book and civilized but the same applies to the Arabs as well. The thing is that everyone have to acknowledge the right of Jews to have their own state in the lands they once lived , especially the Palestinians and come to terms with this for their own good.

Well I think this is the first time that you've even vaguely suggested that the Israelis are anything but saints, you've certainly not criticised any of their behaviour while heaping the criticism on Palestine. You happily ignored my examples of where they're encroaching on Palestinian land even in this century because it suits your argument that the state of Israel is static when it's not.

I suggest that your attempt at balance is simply lip-service.

 

[mikeymikec]

Do people really think that if they backed off to the 1967 borders and instituted a Palestinian state that Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and the like would be like "ok, all is hunky dory and would just stop calling for the destruction of Israel? Give me a break. Lets put another apartheid state next to another apartheid state with whom the people hate each other. Smart move. Both belong to religions who can't seem to get along and pray to their imaginary deities at the same place without wanting to kill each other. Fucking religion.

The British's involvement in Palestine was wrong from the start. Allowing hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees instead of taking them in across the world was wrong. I don't think that saying "1967 borders" or anything like that is going to be a naturally accepted idea because it's not as if those borders were fair either, they were born of unjust decisions which led to conflict.

All that matters now is finding terms of peaceful co-existence, justice and equality that both sides are willing to agree to given the conditions now. 1967 is long gone.

The rest of my opinion on this point can be found here:

Page 88 - Israel: We Are At War

Page 88 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

No idea about point 2, maybe someone with some experience could explain/make sense, as for point 1 i'm sure some osint autist will come along to prove or disprove the locations

You can't. The video presented happened at night. I don't know what event it was presenting but whatever it was, happened at night.

 

[KMFJD]

You can't. The video presented happened at night. I don't know what event it was presenting but whatever it was, happened at night.

i did not say it was accurate, i just gave the source from which the previous poster found that clip from. I also have no clue if it was real or why it was filmed that way, hence the question.

/it is from a prominent Israeli news site and i thought that was strange/different as they have locked down their press/free speech quite a bit since oct 7th



Am i wrong to assume this is valid for all Journalists in Israel or just foreign ones?

 

[KMFJD]

still trying to ban protests all over Europe, France has banned them as has Germany , now from the UK i saw the following

~Suella Braverman wants all pro Palestinian marches banned, she wants the police to do so, they said they do not have that authority, it's up to her/government to do it.

~Just yesterday, she compared the pro-palestinian marches to pro-terrorism marches in Northern Ireland, which is extremely funny, since the only organisation that regularly holds controversial marches there, is the Orange Order, aka Loyalists/Unionists, who are Tory allies.
They were not very pleased.

 

[KMFJD]

Also in regards to Gaza Ministry of Health figures (which i last saw over 10,400) which a lot of people say are bogus because Hamas controls them...

Death toll in Gaza likely ‘higher than is being reported’: US official

A senior Biden administration official said the death toll of Palestinians in the Gaza Strip is likely far higher than the 10,000 number being reported by the health ministry amid Israel’s war agai…

thehill.com

 

[VRAMdemon]

You've thrown some bullshit examples in there in an attempt to make your point, especially the Putin one, and I think that's pretty disingenuous of you.

There is nothing "Disingenuous" about those examples, maybe it seems you just don't like them. That's fine. You hear these contextualized "understandings" of why some terrorist attack and unprovoked aggression may be "justified". Putin's offensive unprovoked aggressions have most certainly been "hand waved" away by people blaming the west for pushing NATO eastward. I would argue that NATO is not pushing eastward ... It's being pulled eastward due to Putin's aggression in the region and in Ukraine for over a decade. Those narrative's I posted exist by people choosing one side over the other instead of just condemning unprovoked aggression . They have to make everyone understand the “root causes” of the atrocity; to put it in the proper context; to remind us , who is ultimately at fault. Because they have chosen one side over the other when terrorists strike first with pearl harbor type cowardly attacks.

I'll post this again: What’s bullshit is to imply that in some way Israel deserves, or should have expected, the horror inflicted on it on Oct 7; that the attacked are somehow as guilty as the attackers; that terrorism is just another form of fighting back, a predictable response of the powerless to their oppression. Sorry, that opinion will never waver, no sense arguing it.

I think MLK made the counter-argument pretty well about moderates calling for the black people to "wait until the time is right" to receive justice and equality and how moderates value order over justice and complain about the manner in which they call for justice.

Letter from a Birmingham Jail [King, Jr.]

www.africa.upenn.edu

MLK "ALWAYS" pushed for peaceful rebellion, and I think he would have been horrified and condemned in the most forceful way what Hamas did, and also how Israel continues to respond. This was justified when his daughter called out that nitwit Amy Schumer when she mentioned MLK in one of her diatribes. MLK "wait until the time is right" would have never been used by him today to justify any kind of terrorist style resistance. He would have "condemned and complained about the manner in which Hamas calls for justice"

The world has proven that it doesn't give two shits about the Palestinians for over a century. You acknowledge that the Palestinians have a valid grievance. To me it's an obvious fact that when grievances go unaddressed and conditions for a people continue to worsen, violence is inevitable. To me it's the height of hypocrisy to create a problem, watch it worsen and ignore pleas for help, then complain about the outcome.

I dunno man ... The world has proven decade after decade about giving "two shits" about the Palestinians, with peace talk after peace talk, The UN condemnations decades old of the occupation and the support of two state solution etc. US presidents decade after decade try to broker peace. Millions and billions of aid money decade after decade. The "world" isn't the problem. It's two religious factions who want the same land for religious reasons who over the years just can't get along and live and pray peacefully together.

I don't think a single person here has said that innocent people deserve to die on either side, and I would vehemently disagree with them if they did.

IMO: Violence is never a good thing. It maims those who commit the violence as well as the more obvious victims of violence; to become increasingly indifferent to the suffering that one has caused does damage to a human that is hard to reverse, and the more that one resorts to violence, that person is more likely to look at more situations and believe that violence is the correct solution (to a person holding a hammer, every problem looks like a nail). The more scars that are raked across people, across land, the harder it will become to go back to peace.

Furthermore, because the world has been run by arseholes since forever who don't listen to valid grievances, freedom is often successfully earned through violence because there was no other way.

The bolded last sentence in this quote, I hope is not an acceptance of Hamas pearl harbor terrorist attacks. Again, the world HAS listened to valid grievances. There ARE other ways. No "freedom" for the Palestinians has been earned through these Hamas terrorist attacks - only death and destruction. Without Hamas aggression, these poor Palestinian pawns would still be alive. The ones who don't listen are the two sides in this conflict because both want ALL the land and both want each other "pushed into the sea"

 

[KMFJD]

Live updates: Israel-Hamas war rages as Gaza evacuations continue

Israel has agreed to daily four-hour pauses of military operations in parts of northern Gaza, the White House said. The pauses do not amount to a ceasefire and will not affect the fight in Gaza, Israel's defense minister said. Follow here for live updates.

www.cnn.com

Looks like 2 hostages were released today, a little good news

 

[VRAMdemon]

The British's involvement in Palestine was wrong from the start. Allowing hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees instead of taking them in across the world was wrong. I don't think that saying "1967 borders" or anything like that is going to be a naturally accepted idea because it's not as if those borders were fair either, they were born of unjust decisions which led to conflict.

All that matters now is finding terms of peaceful co-existence, justice and equality that both sides are willing to agree to given the conditions now. 1967 is long gone.

The rest of my opinion on this point can be found here:

Page 88 - Israel: We Are At War

Page 88 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

forums.anandtech.com

We have been trying to find a peaceful co-existence for these two religious fanatic sides for decades. Each wants the other destroyed, your opinion on "this point" is a dime a dozen and really doesn't solve the hatred. What is required is the two sides to solve the hatred.

I will argue that the Jews have been migrating back to the holy land for thousands of years. You may not like this opinion - The creation of Israel was not a pure colonial project. Colonialism involves powerful nations and organizations imposing their will on the less affluent and powerful, on their own territory, in an exploitative relationship. Desperate people doing desperate things is not colonialism, and it’s inaccurate to compare the two. Jews were moving to Israel in the late 19th and early 20th out of desperation - because they had literally no place to go, and their former homes were unsafe. Centuries of pogroms and violence had followed Jews literally everywhere on Earth they went, culminating in the Holocaust.

Sorry, but the facts are that Jews had been living in the land that would become Israel for thousands of years...and have every right to be in the region. AGAIN, it all boils down to the two religious sects can't live and pray together. For the record I am not religious at all and don't debate from a religious Arab or Jewish viewpoint

History of the Jews and Judaism in the Land of Israel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Jewish people started migrating into the Ottoman Empire back in the late 1800s, and this included not just European Jews but also Middle Eastern Jews from countries like Yemen and Iraq, who had never set foot in Europe. It also ignores the Jews who always lived in Israel. It's easy to hand wave away that Britian caused all this by allowing 100,000 or so "European" jews to migrate back to the holy land and settle there poisoned the entire region

An often-overlooked fact that confounds the colonialist narrative is that roughly HALF of Israeli Jews trace their ancestry to the Middle East and North America. The Mizrahi Jews. Many came to Israel as refugees after 1948, after being dispossessed and expelled from their long-established homes in Arab countries.

Mizrahi Jews - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The British announced their intent to support the already existing Israel project in the Ottoman lands they were about to take hold of way back since 1917. The British signed the Balfour Declaration in 1917, when they had just taken control of the region. They didn’t do so out of a fondness for Jews or because they felt guilty about the Germans committing the Holocaust in a couple of decades. They were recognizing an existing reality, namely significant Jewish settlement in the region, with the permission of the Ottomans. Tel Aviv was founded in 1909. I would love it if someone could explain how the British, mighty as they were, managed to do this 7 years before the Sykes-Picot Agreement gave them control of the region.

If Jews had settled and been accepted elsewhere after their expulsion from whatever region they were living at the time - just as if the Palestinians would have been accepted elsewhere. neither were not, and migrated to the holy lands for thousands of years and engaging in war after war for the lands. What happened in 1948 is not the be all end all that this hatred that has manifested into over the years. And now here we are. Both sides are engaging in war because they can't peacefully coexist. It's real easy to blame Britain and the US when you don't take into account both sides of the conflict are to blame for why we are here today in this quagmire of religious hatred.

 

[Leeea]

i did not say it was accurate, i just gave the source from which the previous poster found that clip from. I also have no clue if it was real or why it was filmed that way, hence the question.

/it is from a prominent Israeli news site and i thought that was strange/different as they have locked down their press/free speech quite a bit since oct 7th

... elon's propaganda ...

Am i wrong to assume this is valid for all Journalists in Israel or just foreign ones?

your wrong to assume anything on X is anything more then rumor

the problems with X come down to:
it is trivial to impersonate people, including verified accounts
it is trivial to pass misinformation
it is actively used to pass misinformation constantly
it is actively used to impersonate people and pass misinformation

all information on X must be considered rumor or misleading propaganda until a 2nd verified source confirming is found.

 

[MrSquished]

but of course. the amount of bullshit Israeli propaganda that the west will willingly spread is going to end up being an astounding amount, but it keeps the pro-Zionists happy

 

[KMFJD]

your wrong to assume anything on X is anything more then rumor

the problems with X come down to:
it is trivial to impersonate people, including verified accounts
it is trivial to pass misinformation
it is actively used to pass misinformation constantly
it is actively used to impersonate people and pass misinformation

all information on X must be considered rumor or misleading propaganda until a 2nd verified source confirming is found.

So you are in agreement then that a shitload of the Ukraine thread is just fake? because all those same things apply there as well....

/and i do not mean Grasshopers posts

 

[Leeea]

So you are in agreement then that a shitload of the Ukraine thread is just fake? because all those same things apply there as well....

/and i do not mean Grasshopers posts

A lot of it is just rumor. It is absolutely not reliable on its own. Miss-information is flying around on both sides. When Elon destroyed identity verification Elon destroyed any value X had.

You will notice when I counter post, I counter post using non-X sources. When I do use an X source, I clearly label them as rumor.



I pull a lot of my Ukraine news off of youtube channels who in turn have their own sources on the ground in Ukraine. Youtube is far better for identity confirmation, so at least a person can know they are seeing the same person every time. The nice thing about youtube is since they are looking at the same person every time, they can match it up to mainstream news, and verify if this person is real or bullshit. Something X completely lacks.

If you want a great non-X source of Isreal / Hamas war content, try:

https://www.youtube.com/@PrestonStewart

and for information in general Ryan is excellent:

https://www.youtube.com/@RyanMcBethProgramming/videos

he does a great break down on how protestors are being manipulated via social media to commit felonies in this video:

specifically tracing over a large number of the accounts for their organization as being tied to known hostiles, including the one that mislead them into targeting the US navy ship with misinformation.

 

[mikeymikec]

We have been trying to find a peaceful co-existence for these two religious fanatic sides for decades. Each wants the other destroyed, your opinion on "this point" is a dime a dozen and really doesn't solve the hatred. What is required is the two sides to solve the hatred.

If your opinion was fact, then talking about a peace process is entirely moot. Let them get on with killing each other, there's no such thing as innocent casualties of war.

However, I personally think it's highly unlikely that all (or even the majority) of Palestinians and Israelis would like to fight to the death, hence I talked about a peace process.

I will argue that the Jews have been migrating back to the holy land for thousands of years. You may not like this opinion - The creation of Israel was not a pure colonial project.

I am perfectly aware that Jewish people lived in Palestine, however what happened especially after WW2 was a drastic change of affairs that would alter the demographic of Palestine forever and in a completely artificial fashion; people don't like change at the best of times, and the idea that your country's population nearly doubles in a matter of a decade or two has mind-boggling consequences with regard to societal development, law and order, etc.

Colonialism involves powerful nations and organizations imposing their will on the less affluent and powerful, on their own territory, in an exploitative relationship. Desperate people doing desperate things is not colonialism, and it’s inaccurate to compare the two.

Zionism is older than WW2 by like 30 years so "desperation" is not an argument that washes IMO. Read up about it; there's definitely an entitlement complex going on there. Yes, Jews being targeted and scapegoated by the people and the state in many countries has been going on for millennia and it's awful, but "therefore let's go to Palestine" was not logically somehow the only/ideal option.

Jews were moving to Israel in the late 19th and early 20th out of desperation - because they had literally no place to go, and their former homes were unsafe. Centuries of pogroms and violence had followed Jews literally everywhere on Earth they went, culminating in the Holocaust.

Check out the population figures I shared with AtenRa (today or yesterday). There's a steady Jewish population increase followed by an extremely sharp one immediately WW2 (1947 IIRC).

This "desperation" and "unsafe" argument also doesn't wash because there was no good reason for them to believe that Palestine was any safer for them than anywhere else. Least of all if hundreds of thousands of refugee show up more or less all at once. It was a recipe for inevitable conflict.

An often-overlooked fact that confounds the colonialist narrative is that roughly HALF of Israeli Jews trace their ancestry to the Middle East and North America. The Mizrahi Jews. Many came to Israel as refugees after 1948, after being dispossessed and expelled from their long-established homes in Arab countries.

Yes, the Law of Return, made by the Israelis, determines that Jewish people can return "home". A law that doesn't apply to Palestinians forced from their homes by Israelis of course.

If Jews had settled and been accepted elsewhere after their expulsion from whatever region they were living at the time - just as if the Palestinians would have been accepted elsewhere. neither were not, and migrated to the holy lands for thousands of years and engaging in war after war for the lands. What happened in 1948 is not the be all end all that this hatred that has manifested into over the years. And now here we are. Both sides are engaging in war because they can't peacefully coexist. It's real easy to blame Britain and the US when you don't take into account both sides of the conflict are to blame for why we are here today in this quagmire of religious hatred.

As I said to AtenRa, no country wanted to take the Jewish people in, so they were dumped there and both sides were forced to co-exist with each other. Jewish people thought they were entitled to own and run the place which is definitely problematic for the people already living there, and the Palestinians were being forced to give over half their land to a population that constituted less than half. It's the literal embodiment of every conservative's wet dream / worst nightmare that refugees/immigrants are coming to take your stuff. It's an enormous shit sandwich, and I completely agree that it is the fault of so-called "civilised countries". Sure, they've grown to hate each other more since then, atrocities piled on top of atrocities and death piled upon revenge and more death, but they didn't light the fire.

For example, here's a quote I learned of recently:

The Balfour Declaration’s purpose was to form a “little loyal Jewish Ulster in a sea of potentially hostile Arabism”, according to Ronald Storrs, “the first military governor of Palestine since Pontius Pilate” (his words).

The Law of Return just added to the insanity of this solution.

What should have happened immediately after WW2 is that pretty much all countries should have taken in a share of Jewish refugees. Palestinians should have been as involved in this process as everyone else.

Furthermore, Zionism should only have been allowed to flourish with the full co-operation and consent of the Palestinian government/people, and agreements as to how the Zionist desires would be catered for.