I think it's disingenuous to include Ukraine/Putin because Putin's invasion of Georgia followed by Ukraine AFAIK had no bearing on NATO expansion. Putin also supplied a load of bullshit justifications for his attack such as "Ukraine has been taken over by Nazis"; it's obvious to me at least that his ambitions have nothing to do with current events. Hence I accused you of being disingenuous because the only people who peddle some other justification for the invasions are Russian state media / troll farms. I would suggest you limit your examples to what actual people are saying due to whatever bias as opposed to what people are likely being paid to peddle a narrative.There is nothing "Disingenuous" about those examples, maybe it seems you just don't like them.
That's fine. You hear these contextualized "understandings" of why some terrorist attack and unprovoked aggression may be "justified". Putin's offensive unprovoked aggressions have most certainly been "hand waved" away by people blaming the west for pushing NATO eastward. I would argue that NATO is not pushing eastward ... It's being pulled eastward due to Putin's aggression in the region and in Ukraine for over a decade.
Ok, not sure why, I responded to this and you've repeated yourself for no apparent reason.Those narrative's I posted exist by people choosing one side over the other instead of just condemning unprovoked aggression . They have to make everyone understand the “root causes” of the atrocity; to put it in the proper context; to remind us , who is ultimately at fault. Because they have chosen one side over the other when terrorists strike first with pearl harbor type cowardly attacks.
I'll post this again: What’s bullshit is to imply that in some way Israel deserves, or should have expected, the horror inflicted on it on Oct 7; that the attacked are somehow as guilty as the attackers; that terrorism is just another form of fighting back, a predictable response of the powerless to their oppression. Sorry, that opinion will never waver, no sense arguing it.
He did push for peaceful rebellion but he also sympathized and understood why it does not always go this way.MLK "ALWAYS" pushed for peaceful rebellion, and I think he would have been horrified and condemned in the most forceful way what Hamas did, and also how Israel continues to respond. This was justified when his daughter called out that nitwit Amy Schumer when she mentioned MLK in one of her diatribes. MLK "wait until the time is right" would have never been used by him today to justify any kind of terrorist style resistance. He would have "condemned and complained about the manner in which Hamas calls for justice"
The US sends billions to Israel and relatively fuck-all to Palestine. It's therefore understandable that a US-led effort is unlikely to help much here.I dunno man ... The world has proven decade after decade about giving "two shits" about the Palestinians, with peace talk after peace talk, The UN condemnations decades old of the occupation and the support of two state solution etc. US presidents decade after decade try to broker peace. Millions and billions of aid money decade after decade. The "world" isn't the problem. It's two religious factions who want the same land for religious reasons who over the years just can't get along and live and pray peacefully together.
What the fuck has Pearl Harbour got to do with this? Seriously. It has absolutely nothing in common with the topic.The bolded last sentence in this quote, I hope is not an acceptance of Hamas pearl harbor terrorist attacks. Again, the world HAS listened to valid grievances. There ARE other ways. No "freedom" for the Palestinians has been earned through these Hamas terrorist attacks - only death and destruction. Without Hamas aggression, these poor Palestinian pawns would still be alive. The ones who don't listen are the two sides in this conflict because both want ALL the land and both want each other "pushed into the sea"
Don't believe everything you see on the internet
This is sketchy at best so far.
Pretty fair summary. Only thing I would add is Hamas' strategy of pissing off the Israeli's so much that the response would cause international opinion to turn into a problem for Israel is absolutely working. The nut currently in charge in Israel is reacting exactly the way his enemy wants him to.So current observations:
Israel's air campaign is excessively aggressive and they are using 1000 and 2000lb bombs in urban areas which result in maximal collateral damage instead of SDBs. Causing mass casualties that might have been avoided through simply not giving a shit likely to significantly backfire both in the medium and long terms. Real bad.
Hamas seems to be doing a lot of dying which is good. Some Palestinians are mad at Hamas for getting them slaughtered.
Netanyahu still unfortunately in power and the right wing nuts in the government he needs to stay there obviously want to ethnic cleanse Palestine. This is bad.Pre
West Bank settlers, emboldened by those same elements in the government, are murdering Palestinians for their land. This is also bad.
Humanitarian situation in Gaza obviously quite poor. Israel insufficiently attentive and Hamas trying to use any relief to their own advantage. Again bad.
Perhaps worst of all is that Israel has absolutely zero fucking plan here and is being driven forward by a crazy old man who will cling to power no matter how high the bodies, on both sides, get piled despite having lost the confidence of almost his entire nation. There is no long term viable plan for what's happening or what will happen after military operations within Gaza itself conclude.pin
What "wrong" do you object to?
You will never have one without the other. Hamas has seen to that.
- Peace?
- Gaza being secured and absorbed?
Their massacre was an escalatory declaration of war that must be answered by regime change. And whatever cost in lives that Hamas imposes for that, it must be paid.
Or all of this will just happen again.
That Hamas exists will cost many lives. Correct that error and the people of Gaza, those who survive, will know peace.
I dare you to think of any alternative that does not require a delusion that Hamas will behave in the future. Oct 7th must conclude with Hamas's demise. Gaza belongs to Israel now. Or there will never be peace.
Pretty fair summary. Only thing I would add is Hamas' strategy of pissing off the Israeli's so much that the response would cause international opinion to turn into a problem for Israel is absolutely working. The nut currently in charge in Israel is reacting exactly the way his enemy wants him to.
It seems like their calculation was a hail Mary. The Palestinian cause was destroyed, nobody in power really gave a shit anymore, Israel was basically just slowly suffocating and taking over more and more Palestinian land, they were living like cattle, and so they played their worst and most horrific hand.This kind of Israeli response is what they wanted. Unfortunately for them the part where other entities, Iranian proxies, and Iran itself enter into a broader war that would threaten Israel as a state does not appear to be happening so far. Assuming that stays the case the most likely end is that most of them are exterminated.
They are more likely to meet at a Qatar underground bar and drink to each others success. Probably going to retire on the same island to live in mansions where their grand kids play together.Hopefully the leader of Hamas and netanyahu meet each other in hell.
Wow, this is a heck of a loaded question.
The Jewish people displaced by the Holocaust deserve to have homes, I wouldn't bother questioning that for a moment. The simple solution is that they should have got their homes back in Europe, but given that they were only gone from their homes maybe for a few years at most and that clearly wasn't feasible, the idea that they supposedly deserve some other bit of land that they have never called home let alone their parents, grandparents etc for many generations, AND that land has been lived on by people who have called it home for many generations, and literally the only reason why Zionism calls Palestine Israel is because their people lived there many, many centuries before is a delusional level of entitlement.
Imagine if Native Americans suddenly decided that they deserve all of "the land of their forefathers" back, not only that but they believe that they should rule over all others living in those lands. That's basically what Zionists believe. It's absolutely batshit crazy.
As I've said already in this thread, I sympathise with the idea of Zionism, but as soon as I factor in that they think they're entitled to what belongs to other people in order to achieve their aims, they can get fucked.
If you are an American , I can understand your lack of understanding and what it feels like being thrown away and displaced away from your lands by force , because you are a new nation with only 250 years of existence that havent witnessed any invasion or being forced to leave your lands for centuries.
No nation ever forgets its origins and its home land , no matter if centuries pass.
Someone forced the jews out of Israel by force , that doesnt mean Jews dont have an entitlement to return to their home land and create a state even if centuries have passed.
You can do that by war and reclaim what was yours or make it politically, Israel in 1947 was created politically and it is recognized by the majority of the nations in the planet.
I believe it is time for the Palestinians to create a state and start fresh with what they have, they just need to understand that it is better to have half of what you want than dont have anything at all.
ps. What essentially you are saying (in bolt) , is that Palestinians will lose Legitimation of having their own state in Palestine , if Jews take all the lands for a few generations. Is that what you are saying ???
Pretty fair summary. Only thing I would add is Hamas' strategy of pissing off the Israeli's so much that the response would cause international opinion to turn into a problem for Israel is absolutely working. The nut currently in charge in Israel is reacting exactly the way his enemy wants him to.
So current observations:
...
Perhaps worst of all is that Israel has absolutely zero fucking plan here and is being driven forward by a crazy old man who will cling to power no matter how high the bodies, on both sides, get piled despite having lost the confidence of almost his entire nation. There is no long term viable plan for what's happening or what will happen after military operations within Gaza itself conclude.
The flaw in that plan is Hamas does not only exist in Gaza. Hamas will be severely degraded but it won't be gone.Oh there's a plan, that's to slaughter everyone in Hamas and probably extends to anyone associated with Hamas wherever possible. I can get that and understand it. Doesn't make it better or anything but that is a plan.
So they can't even aim properly. Useless cowards.A good portion of those killed were IDF and many civilians deaths were from IDF crossfire, as confirmed by some of the civilians in interviews after the attack.
Well its hard to be precise when you are firing from helicopter gunships into crowds at a musical fest.So they can't even aim properly. Useless cowards.
The last thing i saw in regards to those videos, an OSINT account are saying that was at the border wall and all the people shot where Hamas (amazing how he can verify that but whatever)Well its hard to be precise when you are firing from helicopter gunships into crowds at a musical fest.
I was referring to Max Blumenthals rerport which was based mostly on Israeli sources, IDF and civilian interviews in Israeli media.The last thing i saw in regards to those videos, an OSINT account are saying that was at the border wall and all the people shot where Hamas (amazing how he can verify that but whatever)
https://nitter.net/Osinttechnical/status/1722454383827304575#m
here's some footage from 2 days ago within Gaza from Hamas
While i read quite a few articles on Grayzone, they have to be taken with a grain of salt as they tend to skew things a bit (thankfully he does provide links to the reports from news sources and it more or less lines up but without the inflammatory language he uses)I was referring to Max Blumenthals rerport which was based mostly on Israeli sources, IDF and civilian interviews in Israeli media.
October 7 testimonies reveal Israel’s military ‘shelling’ Israeli citizens with tanks, missiles - The Grayzone
Israel's military received orders to shell Israeli homes and even their own bases as they were overwhelmed by Hamas militants on October 7. How many Israeli citizens said to have been "burned alive" were actually killed by friendly fire? Several new testimonies by Israeli witnesses to the...thegrayzone.com