Israel: We Are At War

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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,061
10,242
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1) Unless those Palestine numbers come from an unaffiliated 3rd party I do not believe them. The Hamas health ministry have already lied about the number of deaths / casualties so I don't expect them to be honest with the total.

That figure was from over a week ago. They're carpet-bombing one of the most densely populated cities on the planet; there have been many pictures of civilian buildings demolished by air strikes, and you can be sure that no matter how many you've seen, you won't have seen them all.

So, 7000 air strikes in a densely populated civilian area and 32796 casualties. 32796 / 7000 = 4.69 casualties per air strike. That seems like an underestimate to me.
 
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Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,727
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That figure was from over a week ago. They're carpet-bombing one of the most densely populated cities on the planet; there have been many pictures of civilian buildings demolished by air strikes, and you can be sure that no matter how many you've seen, you won't have seen them all.

So, 7000 air strikes in a densely populated civilian area and 32796 casualties. 32796 / 7000 = 4.69 casualties per air strike. That seems like an underestimate to me.

Reading the article the number seems to have come from Hamas so I do not believe it. If it can be verified by 3rd parties who are out there to learn the truth then I will believe it. Even if the number is true we don't know how many of that number are actually Hamas. Would you find it surprising if every Hamas death is considered a civilian casualty by the Hamas run health ministry? I wouldn't.

It still does not change the fact that a strategy of Hamas is to put civilians in harms way by mixing military and civilian buildings and encouraging civilians to stay put rather than flee. Israel cannot strike Hamas targets and avoid civilians because they are intertwined so the choices are go ahead with the attack knowing it looks bad or allow Hamas to use human shields to prevent retaliation which just emboldens them to commit further atrocities in the future. It is designed to be a no win situation for Israel and their PR machine is good enough that it seems to be working.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,061
10,242
136
Reading the article the number seems to have come from Hamas so I do not believe it. If it can be verified by 3rd parties who are out there to learn the truth then I will believe it. Even if the number is true we don't know how many of that number are actually Hamas. Would you find it surprising if every Hamas death is considered a civilian casualty by the Hamas run health ministry? I wouldn't.

I have to say, it's a great tactic to deny any assertion that doesn't suit your viewpoint, and then to claim that even if the number of casualties is true that we don't know how many of those men, women and children were actually Hamas.

It still does not change the fact that a strategy of Hamas is to put civilians in harms way by mixing military and civilian buildings and encouraging civilians to stay put rather than flee. Israel cannot strike Hamas targets and avoid civilians because they are intertwined so the choices are go ahead with the attack knowing it looks bad or allow Hamas to use human shields to prevent retaliation which just emboldens them to commit further atrocities in the future. It is designed to be a no win situation for Israel and their PR machine is good enough that it seems to be working.

It's an interesting "fact" you assert there. The Palestinians purposefully forced their entire population into two areas that are a tiny fraction of the size of their original country so that Israel could have the rest and that they could kill them even easier. The Palestinians in your view are a really selfless bunch.
 
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Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,727
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I have to say, it's a great tactic to deny any assertion that doesn't suit your viewpoint, and then to claim that even if the number of casualties is true that we don't know how many of those men, women and children were actually Hamas.

I treat numbers from Hamas the same as I treat numbers from Russia, neither is a trustworthy source so I don't trust the number is accurate. 3rd party numbers I do trust. We also know Hamas do not distinguish between Hamas fighter and a civilian so if that number is Hamas provided (which it looks to be) we have no clue how many of it are civilians and how many are Hamas fighters and how many are made up like the 'nearly 1,000' in the hospital situation that was 1st reported by the Hamas run health ministry.

It's an interesting "fact" you assert there. The Palestinians purposefully forced their entire population into two areas that are a tiny fraction of the size of their original country so that Israel could have the rest and that they could kill them even easier. The Palestinians in your view are a really selfless bunch.

I specifically spoke about Hamas, not sure why you want to conflate the innocent Palestinian population with terrorists because they are distinctly not the same.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,061
10,242
136
I treat numbers from Hamas the same as I treat numbers from Russia, neither is a trustworthy source so I don't trust the number is accurate. 3rd party numbers I do trust. We also know Hamas do not distinguish between Hamas fighter and a civilian so if that number is Hamas provided (which it looks to be) we have no clue how many of it are civilians and how many are Hamas fighters and how many are made up like the 'nearly 1,000' in the hospital situation that was 1st reported by the Hamas run health ministry.

On what basis did you assert that the air strikes figure (which was attributed to the Israeli military) as "seems to have come from Hamas"?

I specifically spoke about Hamas, not sure why you want to conflate the innocent Palestinian population with terrorists because they are distinctly not the same.

I'll rephrase my previous counterpoint for you:

It's an interesting "fact" you assert there. Hamas purposefully forced the entire Palestinian population into two areas that are a tiny fraction of the size of their original country so that Israel could have the rest and that they could kill them all even easier. Hamas in your view are a really selfless bunch.
 
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K1052

Elite Member
Aug 21, 2003
46,885
34,850
136
Seems like Hezbollah intends to mostly sit this one out, Hamas having drawn a lot more heat than they are really interested in.
 

Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,727
3,152
136
On what basis did you assert that the air strikes figure (which was attributed to the Israeli military) as "seems to have come from Hamas"?

I was not discussing air strike figures. I was discussing the loss of life per the infographic @KMFJD posted. In your NYT article all mentions of loss of life are from the Hamas controlled ministry of health, a source that is not trustworthy.

I'll rephrase my previous counterpoint for you:

It's an interesting "fact" you assert there. Hamas purposefully forced the entire Palestinian population into two areas that are a tiny fraction of the size of their original country so that Israel could have the rest and that they could kill them all even easier. Hamas in your view are a really selfless bunch.

I still don't see how this follows when discussing how Hamas operate.
 

amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,012
2,284
136
Glad to see some quarters in US media asking serious questions about blind support for Israel.


And Sen Chris Van Hollen pointing out Israeli war crimes.

 
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GodisanAtheist

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2006
7,070
7,492
136
The US' love of Israel but general WASPy distrust to outright hatred of Jews has been a helluva tightrope for the US to walk.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,061
10,242
136
I was not discussing air strike figures. I was discussing the loss of life per the infographic @KMFJD posted. In your NYT article all mentions of loss of life are from the Hamas controlled ministry of health, a source that is not trustworthy.

So when you responded to me by quoting my post and in which you began your response with "Reading the article...", you largely ignored what I wrote (even though I was attempting to demonstrate that when one compares the air strike figures to the casualty figures that the latter seems pretty low). That's an odd way to communicate, I have to say.

I still don't see how this follows when discussing how Hamas operate.

Ok, I'll try to explain my counterpoint more simply:

I was attempting to demonstrate with my counterpoint that the assertion you made makes absolutely no sense when factoring in the history of Palestine. Hamas did not force Palestinians to live in spaces that are a tiny fraction of the original size of Palestine, Israel did.
 
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Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,727
3,152
136
So when you responded to me by quoting my post and in which you began your response with "Reading the article...", you largely ignored what I wrote (even though I was attempting to demonstrate that when one compares the air strike figures to the casualty figures that the latter seems pretty low). That's an odd way to communicate, I have to say.



Ok, I'll try to explain my counterpoint more simply:

I was attempting to demonstrate with my counterpoint that the assertion you made makes absolutely no sense when factoring in the history of Palestine. Hamas did not force Palestinians to live in spaces that are a tiny fraction of the original size of Palestine, Israel did.

I was discussing my distrust of the source of the civilian deaths / casualty numbers provided, the article you shared has numbers but they were provided by Hamas. Your rather weak demonstration does not pass muster, too many unknowns to make any firm assertions relating to deaths per strike.

Israel and a lot of support from the west. Given there were proposals in 1917 about splitting the land between Zionists and Palestinians it has been disputed for a long time.

Regardless of the history though Hamas are not forced to use the tactics they do, tactics that are intended to increase civilian suffering.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
The problem is that Israel is supposed to be our ally and Israel and it's allies continuously lie and propagandize to us. Here is another example. The is a larger video of the Isreali student that was being "harassed" at Harvard, that was spoken of as an example of Antisemitism on college campuses. I initially felt bad about it and then saw this video. Imagine someone stepping over me to take my picture as I lie on the ground, then having the gall to say he was attacked for being Jewish.


What exactly are you trying to prove with this "example?" An Israeli student at Harvard might have pretended to be victim of a hate crime, and so.... That means....what? That Israel itself, as in its government, is particularly dishonest? So if an American lies, then we should presume that the American government lies, or should we presume that all Americans lie? Or how about this: when Jussie Smollett claimed to be lynched when he actually wasn't, and had set up the whole thing himself, what did that say about black people? That they all lie, and all the supposed hate crimes are "fake?" Do you think the 400% increase in anti-semitic hate crimes we've seen these past 2 weeks is also fake? Did "the Jews" firebomb their own Synagogue in Berlin? Wow that is PATHETIC man. Truly disgusting.

One Israel-=all Israelis=Israeli Government. Or did you mean to say, that one Jew = all "the Jews?" It's the exact same error in logic, and it's exactly parallel, so...

I hate bigots of all stripes. But the absolute worst are people who claim to be against bigotry and are secretly bigots themselves. It's no better than republicans who are publicly anti-gay but have secret gay sex lives.

This thread is a new low for this forum, and your post just might be the lowest of the low.
 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,061
10,242
136
I was discussing my distrust of the source of the civilian deaths / casualty numbers provided, the article you shared has numbers but they were provided by Hamas. Your rather weak demonstration does not pass muster, too many unknowns to make any firm assertions relating to deaths per strike.

I didn't intend to prove the accuracy of the figures, that would make no sense. I thought you might acknowledge that 7000 air strikes in a heavily populated civilian area could easily cause that amount of casualties, so therefore the casualty figures are perfectly plausible.

Regardless of the history though Hamas are not forced to use the tactics they do, tactics that are intended to increase civilian suffering.

I don't think Hamas has an awful lot of choice given that they and ~2 million civilians are forced to stay in a concentration camp as a prelude to their elimination, but sure, Hamas is the real problem here. Not the vastly superior opponent which is carpet-bombing civilians in a campaign to reduce the people of Gaza to be "living in tents" as the IDF put it.
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,189
14,102
136
As you may have correctly presumed, my statement "No country on earth is engaged in more disinformation and lies than the Israeli state" is an opinion as there are no means to accurately verify it. But it is also not a matter that can be gauged quantitatively (as in number of lies or disinfo), but the breadth, scale and impact that it can have on a global basis.

All sides in any conflicts rely on disinfo to gain an edge. Sure the Pals do it too, just that they are crude and simple relying on inflating casualties. Not to say their casualties were not considerable given their huge densely packed population that has been subjected to virtually indiscriminate bombing. But the Pals are not as far thinking or as sophisticated as the Israelis in pulling off disinfo or outright lies like the beheaded babies which even the PMs spokesman was claiming.

Yes, Putin and other dictators, even democracies as the U.S engage in disinfo too, but whether they top the Israelis at it I dont know for sure, just that its a reasonable guess they do not. They also dont reach the scale and impact of Israeli lies and disinfo in terms of its effectiveness over decades of perpetuating myths and falsehoods esp in the West and their huge influence over much of the media that peddles it.

For Israel, disinfo and lies are critical to help it survive without being regarded as a pariah state by the rest of the world. This disinfo goes all the way back to 1948 and before. Much of these lies and disinfo have been debunked by Israeli historians when Israel declassified its war and military records in in the 1980s. They found that most of Israels myths re the birth of the nation were revealed to be fabrications.

Aside from "Palestinian advocacy" groups that rely on reputable external references (HRW run for many years by Ken Roth who is Jewish and Amnesty Int'l), I could build my case entirely from Israeli and Jewish sources, academics, and historians, who have been continuously debunking much of Israels lies and disinfo over the decades.

Let's just get this clear, you made an accusation against a sovereign nation, which was a very serious accusation. You claimed they are the most dishonest nation in the world. You now, after ignoring my point for awhile and instead responding to a different point I said was irrelevant, and me not letting the matter drop, have decided you had to admit that you did not prove the statement you made with your link, or with any other evidence. That wasn't very honest, was it? The fact is, your statement was hyperbole, no different than the accusations of "genocide," "apartheid" and "they're just like the Nazis" I keep hearing. You guys LOVE to make these kinds of remarks. Doesn't matter if you know you can prove them or not, does it? Because the entire point is to de-legitimize the world 's only Jewish state in other people's eyes. Why is that?

Now you try to suggest that we should consider Palestinian lies somehow less important because they are "crude." LOL, I hate to break it to you, but a lie is a lie. And just to be clear, those alleged lies that your source claims were made by Israel are mainly in the nature of claiming they didn't do something bad to Palestinians. So they're saying we didn't kill people that they actually killed. While the Palestinians are accusing them of killing all sorts of people they didn't kill. It's the exact same lie in reverse. However, there is one key difference. Whether Israel lies about a specific thing like using white phosphorous, their total Palestinian civilians casualty figures are corroborated by the same aid organizations that hate Israel like you do. So they aren't lying about the big picture. Only the Pals are doing that. But somehow we should consider the one worse than the other, because one is too "crude" to be important. Pretty much the same thing that's been all over this thread: the only lives that matter are the ones taken by Israel, while the ones taken Palestinians are irrelevant and not worthy of discussion. Just insert "lies" for lives, and it's exactly the same double standard.

Oh and it gets better. Now you're "making a reasonable guess" (as opposed to a declaratory statement showing no doubt) that Israel tells more lies than the US or even Russia. LOL. Your "reasonable guesses" mean exactly nothing.

Have you considered the fact that Israel has a free press, which Russia does not and never has, and that it's press is overall quite left leaning? Which means any time they tell a lie, they have a significantly higher chance of getting caught and exposed. There was never a chance of that in the lie factory of Soviet Russia, and Putin's lies only get exposed outside their border. So if we're trafficking in "reasonable guesses," I'd say Russia lies more than Israel or any democracy on the planet. By an order of magnitude.

And finally, you made the "look this Jew agrees with me" ploy. You have any idea how many times I've seen that? Holocaust deniers citing Noam Chomsky to bolster their claims. Israel haters quoting other Jews who agree with them? You do know that it doesn't matter, right? I mean, seriously, an American historian named Howard Zinn wrote multiple books painting the United States as the world's worst villain, attaching millions of deaths to the US that were committed by other nations whose government we may have aided in some way. So all those deaths were on America. Now, shouldn't we believe Zinn because he is, after all, an American, and no American would accuse his country of doing something bad if it wasn't true, right?

Out of curiosity, have you even read any of those books by the Israeli historians you refer to? Like Benny Morris or Avi Schlaim, for example. They are two of the most oft quoted by Israel haters. I've actually read several of their books (The Iron Wall by Schlaim and Righteous Victims by Morris are the 2 I recall at the moment). Be aware that they are not only controversial but entire books have been written claiming they are bad scholarship. You'd really have to digest both sides of the argument by reading a lot of books. Which is why I tend to rely on undisputed facts, like the Palestinians rejecting statehood 4 times, in these kind of debates. I doubt you've even read your own books, let alone those on the other side.

In any event, you have not made your case, not even close.
 
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MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
22,004
20,241
136
so now we can't take any Jew who criticizes Israel seriously. this pro-zionist has automatically disqualified all of them, all Jewish journalists, scholars, whatever, as long as you are critical of Israel in regards to palestine, the pro-zionists automatically disqualify you. don't dare be a jew and criticize Israel with facts, your Jew-ness is a scarlet letter then.

the pro zionists remind me of MAGA people mentally, in regards to this specific issue.

who the fuck is comparing Russia with Israel. This is all nonsense. It's not relevant at all. The pro zionist drivel when they are frantically defending apartheid states and genocide.

Only the Palestinians lie according to this Zionist. He gives Israel credit for having free press but then discredits everything critical of Israel that exists by the free press and scholars of Israel.

You are disgusting fuck and I am not surprised that @fskimospy agrees with you.

Not surprised at all.
 
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Timorous

Golden Member
Oct 27, 2008
1,727
3,152
136
I don't think Hamas has an awful lot of choice given that they and ~2 million civilians are forced to stay in a concentration camp as a prelude to their elimination, but sure, Hamas is the real problem here. Not the vastly superior opponent which is carpet-bombing civilians in a campaign to reduce the people of Gaza to be "living in tents" as the IDF put it.

AHH so Hamas had no other choice but to kill and rape and take hostages. What utter nonsense.

And yes Hamas are the real problem, they explicitly do not want Israel to exist and with that as their goal they are never going to accept a peace or 2 state proposal.

Do you think Palestinians would be better or worse off if Hamas didn't dig up water pipes to make rockets to shoot at Israel? Do you think Palestinians would be better or worse off if Hamas did not embed themselves in the civilian population? Do you think Palestinians would be better or worse off if Hamas did not divert aid to use for their own ends? Nothing Hamas does actually helps the Palestinian people.
 
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Racan

Golden Member
Sep 22, 2012
1,124
2,019
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When all is said and done the final total casualty figures will be close to the numbers reported by the Palestinians.

WHAT IS THE TRACK RECORD FROM PAST WARS?​

Throughout four wars and numerous bloody skirmishes between Israel and Hamas, U.N. agencies have cited the Health Ministry’s death tolls in regular reports. The International Committee of the Red Cross and Palestinian Red Crescent also use the numbers.

In the aftermath of war, the U.N. humanitarian office has published final death tolls based on its own research into medical records.

In all cases the U.N.'s counts have largely been consistent with the Gaza Health Ministry’s, with small discrepancies.

— 2008 war: The ministry reported 1,440 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 1,385.

— 2014 war: The ministry reported 2,310 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 2,251.

— 2021 war: The ministry reported 260 Palestinians killed; the U.N. reported 256.

While Israel and the Palestinians disagree over the numbers of militants versus civilians killed in past wars, Israel’s accounts of Palestinian casualties have come close to the Gaza ministry’s. For instance, Israel’s Foreign Ministry said the 2014 war killed 2,125 Palestinians — just a bit lower than the ministry’s toll.

 
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mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,061
10,242
136
AHH so Hamas had no other choice but to kill and rape and take hostages. What utter nonsense.

I'll grant you that rape isn't ever warranted. But how you can with a straight face say that it's nonsense that Hamas need to kill while Israel is carpet-bombing Palestinian civilians is really sick, and you should take some time to consider that. And if you think that Israeli soldiers have never raped anyone then your naivety knows no bounds.

And yes Hamas are the real problem, they explicitly do not want Israel to exist and with that as their goal they are never going to accept a peace or 2 state proposal.

Neither does Israel (well, Netanyahu at least). If they wanted peace, they wouldn't be carpet-bombing civilians: it's a sure-fire method of inspiring a new generation of people to fight them. It is utterly inhumane.

Do you think Palestinians would be better or worse off if Hamas didn't dig up water pipes to make rockets to shoot at Israel? Do you think Palestinians would be better or worse off if Hamas did not embed themselves in the civilian population? Do you think Palestinians would be better or worse off if Hamas did not divert aid to use for their own ends? Nothing Hamas does actually helps the Palestinian people.

You've talked as if Israel and Palestine's share of land has been static and Hamas et al are unhappy with an arrangement that has stood for decades. If that's what you really believe, you need to educate yourself. Israel takes. Palestinians are unhappy with that. To be fair, Palestinians were never happy with the two-state solution, but neither would you be if some group of countries decided that half of your country would be given to a bunch of foreigners who think they're entitled to it, then they take more. Israel's strategy further fuels the conflict. You also talk of Hamas taking aid and diverting it. How much money does Israel take to fund its war machine?

Palestine isn't going to exist any more in my lifetime, Israel will see to that. Palestinians, if they're not eliminated entirely will be reduced to living in ghetto refugee camps. I expect Hamas and others will fight until they can't. I would in their position. Wouldn't you? To that end, generally speaking I'm not going to wag my fingers at those with their backs against the wall due to the manner in which they fight for their freedom. I expect desperate people to do desperate and at times horrifying things.

On the other hand, I am absolutely going to criticise the side that has the freedom to choose its tactics and decides to go with tactics that most civilised people at least question to be war crimes. Israel is in absolutely no danger of losing in its campaign against Palestine, they must have like 100x the funding that their opponents get and they have the strategic land advantage. At this point they're playing with their food and trying to achieve their aims without raising the ire of "civilised nations" too much.
 
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amenx

Diamond Member
Dec 17, 2004
4,012
2,284
136
Let's just get this clear, you made an accusation against a sovereign nation, which was a very serious accusation. You claimed they are the most dishonest nation in the world. You now, after ignoring my point for awhile and instead responding to a different point I said was irrelevant, and me not letting the matter drop, have decided you had to admit that you did not prove the statement you made with your link, or with any other evidence. That wasn't very honest, was it? The fact is, your statement was hyperbole, no different than the accusations of "genocide," "apartheid" and "they're just like the Nazis" I keep hearing. You guys LOVE to make these kinds of remarks. Doesn't matter if you know you can prove them or not, does it? Because the entire point is to de-legitimize the world 's only Jewish state in other people's eyes. Why is that?
Dude, you are in a forum where opinions are routinely expressed. The link does not establish proof of anything, only samples of routine disinfo that Israel engages in. Yes, I do believe that Israel is the most dishonest nation in the world simply because they have to be to prop up their Zio project from disintegrating into a pariah state due to its numerous violations of int'l laws, the Geneva Conventions, UN resolutions and humanitarian laws. (you want proof of these, lists are ready)

You say terms like genocide and apartheid are "hyperbole". Do you disagree that what the Zio-state is doing in the West Bank is not apartheid with their stealing lands, establishing settlements connected with Jewish only roads that corral Pal communities like sheep and restrict their movements, tear up their farm lands and limit their water supplies is not a disgusting form of apartheid? Aside from Hebron where Pals shops, market place have shut down due to streets connecting to it being Jews only streets and where checkpoints are setup everywhere that harass Pals when going to schools or hospitals or their homes (you want proof of these, its also available). The overwhelming take from all that is the horrific inequality and subjugation of another people deemed racially inferior to the Jews. Anyone saying that is not apartheid would also have to be a very dishonest person.

ALL THAT is not widely known in the US/West because the Lobby and MSM they influence prevent such disturbing info about the Zio state from spreading. Therefore a continuous torrent of lies and disinfo to cover it up is required to prevent Israel from becoming the pariah state it deserves to be. That is what I base my opinion on. You can deflect all you want in demanding some sort of mathematical proof that Russia or whoever lies more than Israel to somehow 'absolve it' from its sordid state but its all just deflection.

Re the term 'genocide', its a matter of degree and method. Some are calling Gaza "A Textbook Case of Genocide". You can bend the term in whichever way you want to arrive at whatever conclusion you want, but it also seems like a deflection from other points you dont like to hear.

Re the Israeli historians, I have read enough excerpts from their works (esp Ilan Pappe) who base their work on actual Israeli war and military documents that were classified after the 1948 war to prevent their damaging nature from hurting the Israeli narrative. Decades later, the records were declassified and revealed that the Jews were not the purported victims who were about to be over-run by their (hopelessly weak and disorganized) neighbors and where most of the Pals were ethnically cleansed through brute force and not simply left their homes for greener pastures.

You may fish for your minor deflection points and deflect away. I know thats all you are interested in is to shift discussion away from examples I provided like West Bank apartheid which really hurt the Zios image, to other less impactful areas like precise definitions or other inconsequential points. I actually believe you are a genuine part of the Zio-disinfo campaign, esp when you mentioned the term apartheid as 'hyperbole' when you VERY WELL KNOW that it exists on a horrible level in the West Bank ( "Judea and Samaria" as you would call it).
 
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