Israeli air raid struck UN Observation Post

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

What matters is only if Israel is targetting civilians. Infrastructre, apartment buildings ect are fair game. So again, why are there not more civilian deaths in this war with the amount of missiles used and ground forces in?

You guys brought this to the table, I am asking for your reasoning when faced with some basic facts.

Is an Israeli bus "fair game" if there is a member of IDF riding on it?

Hez and Hamas policy dictates civilians are fair game. To them that bus if fair game, another good reason for this war.

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: RichardE


Hez and Hamas policy dictates civilians are fair game. To them that bus if fair game, another good reason for this war.

This is the tit for tat violence that is going to send us all into WWIII. Israel kills some Palestinians or Lebanese or whoever or Palestinians kill some Israelis then they avenge those deaths which leads to more deaths and more revenge. It never stops until everyone is dead.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

What matters is only if Israel is targetting civilians. Infrastructre, apartment buildings ect are fair game. So again, why are there not more civilian deaths in this war with the amount of missiles used and ground forces in?

You guys brought this to the table, I am asking for your reasoning when faced with some basic facts.

Is an Israeli bus "fair game" if there is a member of IDF riding on it?

Hez and Hamas policy dictates civilians are fair game. To them that bus if fair game, another good reason for this war.

So if Hamas and Hez change policy from "blowing up civilians riding to work" to "blowing up transportation infrastructure", i.e. buses, you would have no problem with them, since you have already said that infrastructure is "fair game". It's simply the language you object to, not the act of blowing up a bus?

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

What matters is only if Israel is targetting civilians. Infrastructre, apartment buildings ect are fair game. So again, why are there not more civilian deaths in this war with the amount of missiles used and ground forces in?

You guys brought this to the table, I am asking for your reasoning when faced with some basic facts.

Is an Israeli bus "fair game" if there is a member of IDF riding on it?

Hez and Hamas policy dictates civilians are fair game. To them that bus if fair game, another good reason for this war.

So if Hamas and Hez change policy from "blowing up civilians riding to work" to "blowing up transportation infrastructure", i.e. buses, you would have no problem with them, since you have already said that infrastructure is "fair game". It's simply the language you object to, not the act of blowing up a bus?

I think we can easily sum up Richard's position thusly:
Israelis: not fair game
Everyone else in the region: fair game.

 

[senseamp]

The mind makes wonderful distinctions when its convenient. Targeting civilians "terrorism", targeting apartment buildings full of civilians "fair game."

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

What matters is only if Israel is targetting civilians. Infrastructre, apartment buildings ect are fair game. So again, why are there not more civilian deaths in this war with the amount of missiles used and ground forces in?

You guys brought this to the table, I am asking for your reasoning when faced with some basic facts.

Is an Israeli bus "fair game" if there is a member of IDF riding on it?

Hez and Hamas policy dictates civilians are fair game. To them that bus if fair game, another good reason for this war.

So if Hamas and Hez change policy from "blowing up civilians riding to work" to "blowing up transportation infrastructure", i.e. buses, you would have no problem with them, since you have already said that infrastructure is "fair game". It's simply the language you object to, not the act of blowing up a bus?

How can I object to what a countries policy is? The point is, and one that you seem to be missing rather purposefully, Hez and Hamas directly target civilians. No "what if" that is what is happening. You seem to love to bring out hypothetical situations, which is useless. Right now, as of this momment, Hez and Hamas target civilians. I love the fact you shed no tears for any Israel civilians killed but scream about the unfairness of any arab civilians killed. Like watching Israelies die?

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

What matters is only if Israel is targetting civilians. Infrastructre, apartment buildings ect are fair game. So again, why are there not more civilian deaths in this war with the amount of missiles used and ground forces in?

You guys brought this to the table, I am asking for your reasoning when faced with some basic facts.

Is an Israeli bus "fair game" if there is a member of IDF riding on it?

Hez and Hamas policy dictates civilians are fair game. To them that bus if fair game, another good reason for this war.

So if Hamas and Hez change policy from "blowing up civilians riding to work" to "blowing up transportation infrastructure", i.e. buses, you would have no problem with them, since you have already said that infrastructure is "fair game". It's simply the language you object to, not the act of blowing up a bus?

How can I object to what a countries policy is? The point is, and one that you seem to be missing rather purposefully, Hez and Hamas directly target civilians. No "what if" that is what is happening. You seem to love to bring out hypothetical situations, which is useless. Right now, as of this momment, Hez and Hamas target civilians. I love the fact you shed no tears for any Israel civilians killed but scream about the unfairness of any arab civilians killed. Like watching Israelies die?

You are losing the arguement and getting defensive. Since you already called bombing of apartment buldings "fair game," you don't really have a leg to stand on when pretending to care about civilians being killed. As far as Israeli civilians, I do feel bad for them, and I do hope Israel goes after Hezbollah, but that doesn't absolve them of moral responsibility for killing civilians in Lebanon. Unlike you, I am not excusing killing of civilians on either side.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: ThePresence
For those who are already somehow convinced that Israel deliberately hit the UN post, kindly explain the motivation Israel would have to do such a blatantly stupid act?

The current offensive (with limited regard for Lebanese civilians) is blatantly stupid. But you pose a reasonable question.

It seems far more likely this act was an accident or incompetence. Either way, when you drop munitions . . . you are responsible for the outcomes. At some point, Israel and supporters of Israeli aggression can't just say, "Hezbollah started it," or "oops, mistakes happen."

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

What matters is only if Israel is targetting civilians. Infrastructre, apartment buildings ect are fair game. So again, why are there not more civilian deaths in this war with the amount of missiles used and ground forces in?

You guys brought this to the table, I am asking for your reasoning when faced with some basic facts.

Is an Israeli bus "fair game" if there is a member of IDF riding on it?

Hez and Hamas policy dictates civilians are fair game. To them that bus if fair game, another good reason for this war.

So if Hamas and Hez change policy from "blowing up civilians riding to work" to "blowing up transportation infrastructure", i.e. buses, you would have no problem with them, since you have already said that infrastructure is "fair game". It's simply the language you object to, not the act of blowing up a bus?

How can I object to what a countries policy is? The point is, and one that you seem to be missing rather purposefully, Hez and Hamas directly target civilians. No "what if" that is what is happening. You seem to love to bring out hypothetical situations, which is useless. Right now, as of this momment, Hez and Hamas target civilians. I love the fact you shed no tears for any Israel civilians killed but scream about the unfairness of any arab civilians killed. Like watching Israelies die?

You are losing the arguement and getting defensive. Since you already called bombing of apartment buldings "fair game," you don't really have a leg to stand on when pretending to care about civilians being killed. As far as Israeli civilians, I do feel bad for them, and I do hope Israel goes after Hezbollah, but that doesn't absolve them of moral responsibility for killing civilians in Lebanon. Unlike you, I am not excusing killing of civilians on either side.

Civilians die in war. It is up to them to make sure there leaders do not cause conflict.

I am not getting defensive, just understand you are being pathetic. I am still waiting for a reason on how Israel is targetting civilians, yet only 400 have been killed. You guys defend organizations that have it in there policies to kill civilians, yet you cry when civilians die. You are hypocrites, plain and simple.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: ThePresence
For those who are already somehow convinced that Israel deliberately hit the UN post, kindly explain the motivation Israel would have to do such a blatantly stupid act?

The current offensive (with limited regard for Lebanese civilians) is blatantly stupid. But you pose a reasonable question.

It seems far more likely this act was an accident or incompetence. Either way, when you drop munitions . . . you are responsible for the outcomes. At some point, Israel and supporters of Israeli aggression can't just say, "Hezbollah started it," or "oops, mistakes happen."

Although we rarely - if ever - agree on anything, I find you to be one of the more level-headed and intelligent people on this board.

That being said, I think it's way to premature to know yet if the current offensive is stupid or not. We will only know what it accomplished once it's over, and even then it may not be immediately apparent. The fact is, Israel had to do something. Hezbollah, entered Israel and completely unprovoked, attacked, abuducted and killed Israeli soldiers. They could not just sit back and bomb another empty Hezbollah training facility. The problem with fighting Hezbollah and their ilk is that they attack from among a civillian population knowing that Israel will hesitate to strike back. They are in essence using the civillians as a human shield. So Israel is faced with two choices: Either sit back and take it, and let the terror organizations win again and again and abduct and attack more soldiers, or to continually warn all civillains to leave the area and then attack the Hezbolla positions in the civillian areas. They chose option 2 obviously, it's really the only choice they had. The fact that civillians die is tragic, but that's what happens in war, and it will continue to happen.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

What matters is only if Israel is targetting civilians. Infrastructre, apartment buildings ect are fair game. So again, why are there not more civilian deaths in this war with the amount of missiles used and ground forces in?

You guys brought this to the table, I am asking for your reasoning when faced with some basic facts.

Is an Israeli bus "fair game" if there is a member of IDF riding on it?

Hez and Hamas policy dictates civilians are fair game. To them that bus if fair game, another good reason for this war.

So if Hamas and Hez change policy from "blowing up civilians riding to work" to "blowing up transportation infrastructure", i.e. buses, you would have no problem with them, since you have already said that infrastructure is "fair game". It's simply the language you object to, not the act of blowing up a bus?

How can I object to what a countries policy is? The point is, and one that you seem to be missing rather purposefully, Hez and Hamas directly target civilians. No "what if" that is what is happening. You seem to love to bring out hypothetical situations, which is useless. Right now, as of this momment, Hez and Hamas target civilians. I love the fact you shed no tears for any Israel civilians killed but scream about the unfairness of any arab civilians killed. Like watching Israelies die?

You are losing the arguement and getting defensive. Since you already called bombing of apartment buldings "fair game," you don't really have a leg to stand on when pretending to care about civilians being killed. As far as Israeli civilians, I do feel bad for them, and I do hope Israel goes after Hezbollah, but that doesn't absolve them of moral responsibility for killing civilians in Lebanon. Unlike you, I am not excusing killing of civilians on either side.

Civilians die in war. It is up to them to make sure there leaders do not cause conflict.

Well, that can be used to justify killing of any civilians.
Israeli civilians elected their leaders too. Are Israeli civilians fair game too? Or only non-Israeli ones?

I am not getting defensive, just understand you are being pathetic. I am still waiting for a reason on how Israel is targetting civilians, yet only 400 have been killed. You guys defend organizations that have it in there policies to kill civilians, yet you cry when civilians die. You are hypocrites, plain and simple.

You just defended killing of civilians yourself in the same post. What does that make you?

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

What matters is only if Israel is targetting civilians. Infrastructre, apartment buildings ect are fair game. So again, why are there not more civilian deaths in this war with the amount of missiles used and ground forces in?

You guys brought this to the table, I am asking for your reasoning when faced with some basic facts.

Is an Israeli bus "fair game" if there is a member of IDF riding on it?

Hez and Hamas policy dictates civilians are fair game. To them that bus if fair game, another good reason for this war.

So if Hamas and Hez change policy from "blowing up civilians riding to work" to "blowing up transportation infrastructure", i.e. buses, you would have no problem with them, since you have already said that infrastructure is "fair game". It's simply the language you object to, not the act of blowing up a bus?

How can I object to what a countries policy is? The point is, and one that you seem to be missing rather purposefully, Hez and Hamas directly target civilians. No "what if" that is what is happening. You seem to love to bring out hypothetical situations, which is useless. Right now, as of this momment, Hez and Hamas target civilians. I love the fact you shed no tears for any Israel civilians killed but scream about the unfairness of any arab civilians killed. Like watching Israelies die?

You are losing the arguement and getting defensive. Since you already called bombing of apartment buldings "fair game," you don't really have a leg to stand on when pretending to care about civilians being killed. As far as Israeli civilians, I do feel bad for them, and I do hope Israel goes after Hezbollah, but that doesn't absolve them of moral responsibility for killing civilians in Lebanon. Unlike you, I am not excusing killing of civilians on either side.

Civilians die in war. It is up to them to make sure there leaders do not cause conflict.

Well, that can be used to justify killing of any civilians.
Israeli civilians elected their leaders too. Are Israeli civilians fair game too? Or only non-Israeli ones?

I am not getting defensive, just understand you are being pathetic. I am still waiting for a reason on how Israel is targetting civilians, yet only 400 have been killed. You guys defend organizations that have it in there policies to kill civilians, yet you cry when civilians die. You are hypocrites, plain and simple.

You just defended killing of civilians yourself in the same post. What does that make you?

A realist. Civilians die in a war, the difference is Hez and Hamas go only for civilians, Israel does not. You defend Hez and Hamas, you sympathize with organizations that kill civilans on purposely, and publicly state that is what they do.

 

[senseamp]

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: RichardE

What matters is only if Israel is targetting civilians. Infrastructre, apartment buildings ect are fair game. So again, why are there not more civilian deaths in this war with the amount of missiles used and ground forces in?

You guys brought this to the table, I am asking for your reasoning when faced with some basic facts.

Is an Israeli bus "fair game" if there is a member of IDF riding on it?

Hez and Hamas policy dictates civilians are fair game. To them that bus if fair game, another good reason for this war.

So if Hamas and Hez change policy from "blowing up civilians riding to work" to "blowing up transportation infrastructure", i.e. buses, you would have no problem with them, since you have already said that infrastructure is "fair game". It's simply the language you object to, not the act of blowing up a bus?

How can I object to what a countries policy is? The point is, and one that you seem to be missing rather purposefully, Hez and Hamas directly target civilians. No "what if" that is what is happening. You seem to love to bring out hypothetical situations, which is useless. Right now, as of this momment, Hez and Hamas target civilians. I love the fact you shed no tears for any Israel civilians killed but scream about the unfairness of any arab civilians killed. Like watching Israelies die?

You are losing the arguement and getting defensive. Since you already called bombing of apartment buldings "fair game," you don't really have a leg to stand on when pretending to care about civilians being killed. As far as Israeli civilians, I do feel bad for them, and I do hope Israel goes after Hezbollah, but that doesn't absolve them of moral responsibility for killing civilians in Lebanon. Unlike you, I am not excusing killing of civilians on either side.

Civilians die in war. It is up to them to make sure there leaders do not cause conflict.

Well, that can be used to justify killing of any civilians.
Israeli civilians elected their leaders too. Are Israeli civilians fair game too? Or only non-Israeli ones?

I am not getting defensive, just understand you are being pathetic. I am still waiting for a reason on how Israel is targetting civilians, yet only 400 have been killed. You guys defend organizations that have it in there policies to kill civilians, yet you cry when civilians die. You are hypocrites, plain and simple.

You just defended killing of civilians yourself in the same post. What does that make you?

A realist. Civilians die in a war, the difference is Hez and Hamas go only for civilians, Israel does not. You defend Hez and Hamas, you sympathize with organizations that kill civilans on purposely, and publicly state that is what they do.

I didn't defend Hez or Hamas, or sympathised with them, nor have I advocated or justified killing of civilians by either side, unlike you.
You are the one who called bombing apartment buildings "fair game," and tried to absolve Israel of any responsibility in knowingly killing civilians.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

I think you highlight a common fallacy of policy . . . the false dichotomy. Israel had a HOST of choices. Launching hundreds of sorties and artillery shells into civilian areas was a bad decision for the simple fact that the potential negatives were essentially guaranteed (high civilian death toll, decimation of civilian infrastructure, regional/worldwide condemnation) while potential positives were unlikely (truly destroy Hezbollah in Lebanon, dramatically curtail Iranian/Syrian support, reduce rocket/missile attacks into northern Israel). Granted, the last one might be possible but will likely require Israel to occupy southern Lebanon . . . not a good outcome for either country.

Regardless, the US and Israeli argument that they are "doing it for the best interests of Lebanon" rings hollow. It's abundantly clear that Israel (as I'm sure many nations believe) considers the life of any single Israeli to be worth far more than the life of any innocent citizen of another country. When the rubber hits the road, Hezbollah is providing social services in Lebanon . . . while Israel destroys more of the country and the US supplies the weapons.

Hezbollah really sux . . . but just like the US mess in Iraq . . . Israel has made the mistake of drawing attention itself. In essence, instead of highlighting a problem and advancing a realistic solution, Israel has created new problems while doing little to actually address the original concern.

 

[ThePresence]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
I think you highlight a common fallacy of policy . . . the false dichotomy. Israel had a HOST of choices. Launching hundreds of sorties and artillery shells into civilian areas was a bad decision for the simple fact that the potential negatives were essentially guaranteed (high civilian death toll, decimation of civilian infrastructure, regional/worldwide condemnation) while potential positives were unlikely (truly destroy Hezbollah in Lebanon, dramatically curtail Iranian/Syrian support, reduce rocket/missile attacks into northern Israel). Granted, the last one might be possible but will likely require Israel to occupy southern Lebanon . . . not a good outcome for either country.

You say they had a host of options... what were they?
They attempt to avoid civillian casulties, they warned the civillains to leave, what more can they do?

Regardless, the US and Israeli argument that they are "doing it for the best interests of Lebanon" rings hollow. It's abundantly clear that Israel (as I'm sure many nations believe) considers the life of any single Israeli to be worth far more than the life of any innocent citizen of another country. When the rubber hits the road, Hezbollah is providing social services in Lebanon . . . while Israel destroys more of the country and the US supplies the weapons.

That's not true. They consider it equal. Unfortunately it has been made abundantly clear that most of the world values Palestinians etc. civillians more than Israeli. Hezbollah did not just burst onto the scene, they have been shooting rockets at Israeli towns for years, for which Israel showed considerable restraint, which continually emboldened them. Of course that's all forgotten now. They sit in the Lebanese parliament, they are part of the Lebanese government.

Hezbollah really sux . . . but just like the US mess in Iraq . . . Israel has made the mistake of drawing attention itself. In essence, instead of highlighting a problem and advancing a realistic solution, Israel has created new problems while doing little to actually address the original concern.

What is your solution? What other options were there?

 

[5150Joker]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Normally I would say Israel is so wrong in what they are doing to Lebanon. I would totally disagree with them.

However, on the other forums I go to... the people who support Hezbollah say the most barbaric things.

I dont know if it is because people on this forum are afraid to truely express their opinions out of a fear of getting banned or because the people who support Israel are actually sane compred to those fanatical hezbollah lovers.

I choose the Israel side in this one.
If Hezbollah had the weapons Israel had ..... yeah ... so therefore ****** happens..

Go Israel.

Aimster you can relax bro. The Mossad won't come knocking at your door anytime soon if you criticize Israel.

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: RichardE
A realist. Civilians die in a war, the difference is Hez and Hamas go only for civilians, Israel does not. You defend Hez and Hamas, you sympathize with organizations that kill civilans on purposely, and publicly state that is what they do.

If Israel is not going after civilians I wonder why they are using cluster bombs in civilian areas .

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: peachee
The UN post was "shelled 14 times by Israeli artillery." This was "deliberate targeting." - bbc

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5215366.stm

This is a clear act of war against the world community. Israel seems to be really trying to start WWIII. We need to take away Israel's weapons of war so it can learn to make peace.

Take away their weapons and there will be peace. No Israel

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Siwy

Originally posted by: RichardE
A realist. Civilians die in a war, the difference is Hez and Hamas go only for civilians, Israel does not. You defend Hez and Hamas, you sympathize with organizations that kill civilans on purposely, and publicly state that is what they do.

If Israel is not going after civilians I wonder why they are using cluster bombs in civilian areas .

Wow... Israel must have a pretty weak military... with full exertion for 2 weeks... the most they can kill is 300 people... WOW. All the arab world needs then are about 10,000 men with pitchforks, and they could crush teh IDF and liberate Palestine. At this rate it would take 33 weeks to kill off the 10,000 pitchfork weilding Mujaheeden...

C'mmon seriously guys... it would be one thing if this was a discussion on Israel's success or failure in avoiding civillian casualties. That would be a rational argument. But arguing that Israel is deliberately trying to kill civillians is just plain assanine. If Israel wanted to kill civillians they would... it would take no effort, they wouldn't even have to target them, they could just use different weapons... and they could still claim the civillian deaths were collateral damage. There just is absolutely no logic behind the idea of the bombings being deliberate.

-Max

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: EagleKeeper

Originally posted by: peachee
The UN post was "shelled 14 times by Israeli artillery." This was "deliberate targeting." - bbc

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5215366.stm

This is a clear act of war against the world community. Israel seems to be really trying to start WWIII. We need to take away Israel's weapons of war so it can learn to make peace.

Take away their weapons and there will be peace. No Israel

For every 25 missiles launched, there is 1 civilian death. That is a costly policy on targeting civilians. Do you honestly think Israel is such a bad shot with precision missiles?

 

[Siwy]

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Siwy

Originally posted by: RichardE
A realist. Civilians die in a war, the difference is Hez and Hamas go only for civilians, Israel does not. You defend Hez and Hamas, you sympathize with organizations that kill civilans on purposely, and publicly state that is what they do.

If Israel is not going after civilians I wonder why they are using cluster bombs in civilian areas .

Wow... Israel must have a pretty weak military... with full exertion for 2 weeks... the most they can kill is 300 people... WOW. All the arab world needs then are about 10,000 men with pitchforks, and they could crush teh IDF and liberate Palestine. At this rate it would take 33 weeks to kill off the 10,000 pitchfork weilding Mujaheeden...

C'mmon seriously guys... it would be one thing if this was a discussion on Israel's success or failure in avoiding civillian casualties. That would be a rational argument. But arguing that Israel is deliberately trying to kill civillians is just plain assanine. If Israel wanted to kill civillians they would... it would take no effort, they wouldn't even have to target them, they could just use different weapons... and they could still claim the civillian deaths were collateral damage. There just is absolutely no logic behind the idea of the bombings being deliberate.

-Max

Israel is known for its collective punishment methods ~ it does not need to kill 100,000 civilians. A fraction of them is enough as long as the rest of them are terrorized, become refugees and have their lives shattered.

Israel?s history is full of such acts, it?s nothing new.

Destruction of UN post using a "a precision-guided missile after six hours of shelling" - and that is after UN contacted Israeli troops 10 times to stop! - shows how determined they are to carry out their devastation and preventing the world from knowing the details by getting rid of ?the eyes of UN? ~ as the Irish UN commander stationed in that area called the UN post, today in an interview on CNN.

And of curse Israel army will apologize, carry out a full and meticulous but fruitless investigation of ?itself? and in the end decide that it was an innocent mistake, as it has done countless of times before.

 

[Doboji]

Originally posted by: Siwy

Originally posted by: Doboji

Originally posted by: Siwy

Originally posted by: RichardE
A realist. Civilians die in a war, the difference is Hez and Hamas go only for civilians, Israel does not. You defend Hez and Hamas, you sympathize with organizations that kill civilans on purposely, and publicly state that is what they do.

If Israel is not going after civilians I wonder why they are using cluster bombs in civilian areas .

Wow... Israel must have a pretty weak military... with full exertion for 2 weeks... the most they can kill is 300 people... WOW. All the arab world needs then are about 10,000 men with pitchforks, and they could crush teh IDF and liberate Palestine. At this rate it would take 33 weeks to kill off the 10,000 pitchfork weilding Mujaheeden...

C'mmon seriously guys... it would be one thing if this was a discussion on Israel's success or failure in avoiding civillian casualties. That would be a rational argument. But arguing that Israel is deliberately trying to kill civillians is just plain assanine. If Israel wanted to kill civillians they would... it would take no effort, they wouldn't even have to target them, they could just use different weapons... and they could still claim the civillian deaths were collateral damage. There just is absolutely no logic behind the idea of the bombings being deliberate.

-Max

Israel is known for its collective punishment methods ~ it does not need to kill 100,000 civilians. A fraction of them is enough as long as the rest of them are terrorized, become refugees and have their lives shattered.

Israel?s history is full of such acts, it?s nothing new.

Destruction of UN post using a "a precision-guided missile after six hours of shelling" - and that is after UN contacted Israeli troops 10 times to stop! - shows how determined they are to carry out their devastation and preventing the world from knowing the details by getting rid of ?the eyes of UN? ~ as the Irish UN commander stationed in that area called the UN post, today in an interview on CNN.

And of curse Israel army will apologize, carry out a full and meticulous but fruitless investigation of ?itself? and in the end decide that it was an innocent mistake, as it has done countless of times before.

Well you have a right to your opinion... I for one don't believe that Israel is purposely targetting civillians. I believe Israel is in the right in this war.. and I will now shutup and put my money where my mouth is... gonna donate a couple hundred bucks to the IDF through the Libi fund. Enjoy your pointless arguments...

-Max

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: cirrrocco

Originally posted by: Genx87

lets say you are part of a country thats landlocked and has a wall around you.you have no guns. and you hate your oppressors. are you just going to enjoy that life..and live until ur 90.

No!1 if you have balls you are going to use whatever means necesarry to kick your opressors out.

==================

edit zionists!! I am not anti semitic. I am just thinking from a paelstinians POV...they think they want to kick out the israelis and they cant do shet!! , so they brainwash the unemployed and ship em to kill innocent people...

so dont pull the semitism strawman....

If I had a brain and decided to use it. I would look at the history of what I am doing and decide, hmm blowing up that bus of school kids hasnt worked for the past 35 years, maybe I will save myself the trouble and look within.

But again, that would require

A. A brain
B. Using it

Something that doesnt seem to happen a lot in those territories, or in the ME in general.

 

[Mardeth]

Damn Im pissed.

Israel just lost the last little support I had for them. A fellow countryman of mine died. All the points about it being a war and therefore anything goes are moot. This wasnt sharpnel hitting someone while they were strolling around or even a stray bullet. This was a direct hit on their bomb shelter. After the PM promised that theyd be safe. After them calling Israelis 10 times within the last 6 hours that the bombing was getting close... Not being hit once but several times...

For an army/airforce that supposed to be one of the best their aim/intelligence sucks. For a country always bitching how everybody hates them, they sure dont try very hard at keeping the "friends" they have.

 

[firewall]

With all this mess in the middle east, and our unconditional support for Israel, we are just creating more anti-American sentiments in a major part of the world. Put Israel on one side, the Muslim countries on the other... yeah... our foreign policy is proving itself to be very really successful... :disgust:

Mardeth, sorry for your loss....