Israeli Cabinet passes loyalty bill, Arabs angry

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
Nothing wrong with this!! Immigrants who come to America and become citizens have to do sort of the same thing!!

Why would israel want to let people in who have no intentions of being loyal???

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians

JERUSALEM – Israel's Cabinet approved on Sunday a bill that would require new citizens to pledge a loyalty oath to a "Jewish and democratic" state, language that triggered charges of racism from Arab lawmakers who see it as undermining the rights of the country's Arab minority.

The measure was largely symbolic, since few non-Jews apply for Israeli citizenship. Nevertheless, it infuriated the Arab minority and stoked tensions with Palestinians at a time when fledgling peace talks are deadlocked over Israel's refusal to extend a moratorium on new building in West Bank Jewish settlements.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the bill reflected the essence of Israel at a time when he said many in the world are trying to blur the connection between the Jewish people and their homeland.

"The state of Israel is the national state of the Jewish people and is a democratic state in which all its citizens — Jews and non-Jews — enjoy full equal rights," he said. "Whoever wants to join us, has to recognize us."

Ahmad Tibi, an Arab lawmaker, called the move a provocation.

"Its purpose is to solidify the inferior status of Arabs by law," he said. "Netanyahu and his government are limiting the sphere of democracy in Israel and deepening the prejudice against its Arab minority."

Unlike their Palestinian brethren in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel's Arabs are citizens, with the right to vote, travel freely and collect generous social benefits. But they have long suffered from discrimination and second-class status. Arabs make up roughly one-fifth of Israel's 7 million people.

While the new bill would not force Arab citizens to profess their loyalty, a non-Jewish spouse of any Israeli would have to take the oath in order to receive citizenship.

Israel's Interior Ministry said several thousand people would be affected by the measure, while Adalah, an Arab advocacy group, said the number was about 25,000. The bill presumably would not affect Jewish newcomers, who automatically receive citizenship under Israel's "Law of Return."

Roni Schocken, spokesman for the Abraham Fund, a group that promotes coexistence between Israeli Jews and Arabs, said the new legislation added to what is becoming a "terrifying" atmosphere for Arabs. Efforts are under way in parliament, for instance, to punish groups that recognize the "Nakba," or catastrophe, the term that Palestinians use to describe the suffering caused by Israel's founding.

"It conveys a very strong message that Arabs are second-rate citizens," he said.

The bill — which still needs to pass a wider parliamentary vote — easily passed by a 22-8 margin. Only a handful of ministers, mostly from the centrist Labor Party, opposed it.

It was backed by Yisrael Beitenu, a hard-line nationalist party whose leader, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, openly questioned the loyalty of Israel's Arabs during last year's election campaign. The issue helped propel his party to a strong third place in parliamentary elections.

Many Israeli Arabs openly identify with the Palestinians, and in recent years, a small number of Arabs have been charged with spying for Israel's Arab enemies.

In the most controversial proposal, Lieberman called for all citizens, including Arabs, to swear an oath of loyalty to Israel as a Jewish state and wanted anyone refusing to do so to be stripped of their citizenship. That measure, widely seen as anti-Arab, was struck down by a ministerial committee last year.

"Obviously this is not the end of the issue of loyalty in return for citizenship, but this is a highly important step," he said.

The vote came during an impasse in Mideast peacemaking. Just a month after their launch at a White House ceremony, talks between Israeli and the Palestinians have become deadlocked over Israeli settlement construction in the West Bank.

Palestinians say they will not resume negotiations unless Israel extends a 10-month-old slowdown on new housing starts, which ended in late September.

Netanyahu has rejected an extension, but is considering compromises to keep the talks alive. Over the weekend, the Arab League gave the U.S., which has been mediating talks, another month to resolve the deadlock.

Under heavy international pressure, Netanyahu has been sounding out key Cabinet ministers but does not appear to have a majority for extending the building restrictions.

Lieberman has been a vocal critic of extending the settlement curbs. Netanyahu's decision to bring the bill to a Cabinet vote may be a way to soften Lieberman's opposition to extending the slowdown, though officials have denied there is any connection.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
Yes, due to the fact the US is predominantly Christian, the constitution should be changed so all those who immigrate to the US should take an oath to Christianity.
-- so you really need to get your facts straight before you open your mouth and insert your whole freakin foot all the way up to your knee!!

The problem with that is America is NOT the hotbed nor the seat of Christianity! It was never intended to be a safe haven for CHRISTIANS!!

Israel on the other hand is the national state of the Jewish people and is a democratic state in which all its citizens — Jews and non-Jews — enjoy full equal rights," he said. "Whoever wants to join us, has to recognize us
 

Londo_Jowo

Lifer
Jan 31, 2010
17,303
158
106
londojowo.hypermart.net
-- so you really need to get your facts straight before you open your mouth and insert your whole freakin foot all the way up to your knee!!

The problem with that is America is NOT the hotbed nor the seat of Christianity! It was never intended to be a safe haven for CHRISTIANS!!

Israel on the other hand is the national state of the Jewish people and is a democratic state in which all its citizens — Jews and non-Jews — enjoy full equal rights," he said. "Whoever wants to join us, has to recognize us


Maybe it would be best if all the Christians in the US stood up and chose to support lawmakers that would take the same actions in the US.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
-- so you really need to get your facts straight before you open your mouth and insert your whole freakin foot all the way up to your knee!!

The problem with that is America is NOT the hotbed nor the seat of Christianity! It was never intended to be a safe haven for CHRISTIANS!!

Israel on the other hand is the national state of the Jewish people and is a democratic state in which all its citizens — Jews and non-Jews — enjoy full equal rights," he said. "Whoever wants to join us, has to recognize us

If Jews and non-Jews enjoy equal rights, why do non-Jews have to swear an oath to a Jewish state, while Jews don't have to swear an oath to a non-Jewish state?
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,510
0
76
There is a difference between the US declaration of independence and israel's

http://www.mfa.gov.il/mfa/peace pro...claration of establishment of state of israel


namely:

The catastrophe which recently befell the Jewish people - the massacre of millions of Jews in Europe - was another clear demonstration of the urgency of solving the problem of its homelessness by re-establishing in Eretz-Israel the Jewish State, which would open the gates of the homeland wide to every Jew and confer upon the Jewish people the status of a fully privileged member of the comity of nations.


On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable.

ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
That's fine, but then don't pretend Jews and non-Jews are equal if state is Jewish by construction.
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
0
I don't remember taking an oath to a Christian and Democratic US.

Israel is a different case.

It has been shown quite clearly that this religious group needs to ensure their own protection. The country of Israel is this protection and to keep it as protection it needs to keep the religious majority their own religion.

It's a ugly thing but a need thing as no one but themselves can be counted upon to give them consistent protection, hell even Canada barged about how few jews we let into the country during WWII... Hatred is buried deep in most parts of the world (and rather shallow in other parts) and need only the right circumstances to come to the surface.

Maybe some day religion will not inspire hatred (be it victim or victimizer) but that day is far off. As it stands you can live in and alongside Israel if you respect them, the same can't be said of their neighbors.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Israel is a different case.

It has been shown quite clearly that this religious group needs to ensure their own protection. The country of Israel is this protection and to keep it as protection it needs to keep the religious majority their own religion.

It's a ugly thing but a need thing as no one but themselves can be counted upon to give them consistent protection, hell even Canada barged about how few jews we let into the country during WWII... Hatred is buried deep in most parts of the world (and rather shallow in other parts) and need only the right circumstances to come to the surface.

Maybe some day religion will not inspire hatred (be it victim or victimizer) but that day is far off. As it stands you can live in and alongside Israel if you respect them, the same can't be said of their neighbors.

That's fine, but don't pretend there is true equality there between Jews and gentiles. It's like saying there is equality between Jews and gentiles in a Synagogue.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Nothing wrong with this!! Immigrants who come to America and become citizens have to do sort of the same thing!!

Why would israel want to let people in who have no intentions of being loyal???

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/ml_israel_palestinians

JERUSALEM – Israel's Cabinet approved on Sunday a bill that would require new citizens to pledge a loyalty oath to a "Jewish and democratic" state, language that triggered charges of racism from Arab lawmakers who see it as undermining the rights of the country's Arab minority.

The measure was largely symbolic, since few non-Jews apply for Israeli citizenship. Nevertheless, it infuriated the Arab minority and stoked tensions with Palestinians at a time when fledgling peace talks are deadlocked over Israel's refusal to extend a moratorium on new building in West Bank Jewish settlements.

Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the bill reflected the essence of Israel at a time when he said many in the world are trying to blur the connection between the Jewish people and their homeland.

"The state of Israel is the national state of the Jewish people and is a democratic state in which all its citizens — Jews and non-Jews — enjoy full equal rights," he said. "Whoever wants to join us, has to recognize us."

Ahmad Tibi, an Arab lawmaker, called the move a provocation.

"Its purpose is to solidify the inferior status of Arabs by law," he said. "Netanyahu and his government are limiting the sphere of democracy in Israel and deepening the prejudice against its Arab minority."

Unlike their Palestinian brethren in the West Bank and Gaza Strip, Israel's Arabs are citizens, with the right to vote, travel freely and collect generous social benefits. But they have long suffered from discrimination and second-class status. Arabs make up roughly one-fifth of Israel's 7 million people.

While the new bill would not force Arab citizens to profess their loyalty, a non-Jewish spouse of any Israeli would have to take the oath in order to receive citizenship.

Israel's Interior Ministry said several thousand people would be affected by the measure, while Adalah, an Arab advocacy group, said the number was about 25,000. The bill presumably would not affect Jewish newcomers, who automatically receive citizenship under Israel's "Law of Return."

Roni Schocken, spokesman for the Abraham Fund, a group that promotes coexistence between Israeli Jews and Arabs, said the new legislation added to what is becoming a "terrifying" atmosphere for Arabs. Efforts are under way in parliament, for instance, to punish groups that recognize the "Nakba," or catastrophe, the term that Palestinians use to describe the suffering caused by Israel's founding.

"It conveys a very strong message that Arabs are second-rate citizens," he said.

The bill — which still needs to pass a wider parliamentary vote — easily passed by a 22-8 margin. Only a handful of ministers, mostly from the centrist Labor Party, opposed it.

It was backed by Yisrael Beitenu, a hard-line nationalist party whose leader, Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, openly questioned the loyalty of Israel's Arabs during last year's election campaign. The issue helped propel his party to a strong third place in parliamentary elections.

Many Israeli Arabs openly identify with the Palestinians, and in recent years, a small number of Arabs have been charged with spying for Israel's Arab enemies.

In the most controversial proposal, Lieberman called for all citizens, including Arabs, to swear an oath of loyalty to Israel as a Jewish state and wanted anyone refusing to do so to be stripped of their citizenship. That measure, widely seen as anti-Arab, was struck down by a ministerial committee last year.

"Obviously this is not the end of the issue of loyalty in return for citizenship, but this is a highly important step," he said.

The vote came during an impasse in Mideast peacemaking. Just a month after their launch at a White House ceremony, talks between Israeli and the Palestinians have become deadlocked over Israeli settlement construction in the West Bank.

Palestinians say they will not resume negotiations unless Israel extends a 10-month-old slowdown on new housing starts, which ended in late September.

Netanyahu has rejected an extension, but is considering compromises to keep the talks alive. Over the weekend, the Arab League gave the U.S., which has been mediating talks, another month to resolve the deadlock.

Under heavy international pressure, Netanyahu has been sounding out key Cabinet ministers but does not appear to have a majority for extending the building restrictions.

Lieberman has been a vocal critic of extending the settlement curbs. Netanyahu's decision to bring the bill to a Cabinet vote may be a way to soften Lieberman's opposition to extending the slowdown, though officials have denied there is any connection.

I disagree, having to declare allegiance to Judaism and the Jewish population rather than to the state and the people within (which would be all inclusive instead of exclusive as this IS) isn't something i would be prepared to do, of course, considering my heritage, i won't need to either way.

Scrap this piece of bullsheit, it's wrong, flat out.
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
0
That's fine, but then don't pretend Jews and non-Jews are equal if state is Jewish by construction.

Pretty much. I don't like Israel, I don't want my country to emulate anything from Israel, I don't want my country to support (not counting trade) or hinder Israel BUT I understand a need for this ugly country and why it exists.

If all the hatred towards and attacks upon Israel -edit- and jews in general -/edit- stopped tomorrow they would likely quickly melt away as a "Jewish" country and become a fairly normal country.

-edit- Might as well put in something about the OP.

This is why I say "why does Israel need the palis to recognize Israel as a jewish sate?". Through their own immigration policies they can control who can and can not enter the country, they don't need anyone else to reassure them that they are jewish. All it is is a ploy to spit in the faces of the arabs and strengthen their case against the "right of return" BS the arabs keep pushing.
 
Last edited:

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
Ultimately it's going to hurt Israel to put something this divisive in the loyalty oath. Do they really want to have people swear an oath to some bullsh!t they don't believe in?
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
0
Israel is a different case.

It has been shown quite clearly that this religious group needs to ensure their own protection. The country of Israel is this protection and to keep it as protection it needs to keep the religious majority their own religion.

It's a ugly thing but a need thing as no one but themselves can be counted upon to give them consistent protection, hell even Canada barged about how few jews we let into the country during WWII... Hatred is buried deep in most parts of the world (and rather shallow in other parts) and need only the right circumstances to come to the surface.

Maybe some day religion will not inspire hatred (be it victim or victimizer) but that day is far off. As it stands you can live in and alongside Israel if you respect them, the same can't be said of their neighbors.

Actually, it isn't a different case, my mother was a Jew, that makes me a Jew, the Jews are Jews by heritage, the religion has nothing to do with who is a Jew in the eyes of Israel.

"for their own protection" is Orthodox speak for separate but unequal. I find the excuses worthless and the more of this shit that keeps going the less i will care about Israel.

Take the public transportation, now many don't know this but if Rosa Parks were to ride a bus in Israel, she would be confined to the back of the bus and if she resisted, she would be arrested for it.

Not because she's black though, Orthodox cunts have deemed that much like Muslims, Jews aren't capable of self control so the women must be separated from the men on public transportation, same goes for a whole lot of other places.

I'm sorry Israel, i guess i'm not one of yours after all.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
It's like our pledge of allegiance. You put "under god" in it, means atheists don't really mean it when we say the pledge. It's just empty words. It's just laughable to put the word "indivisible" right after you put a phrase that divides people into believers and non-believers.
 

ZzZGuy

Golden Member
Nov 15, 2006
1,855
0
0
Actually, it isn't a different case, my mother was a Jew, that makes me a Jew, the Jews are Jews by heritage, the religion has nothing to do with who is a Jew in the eyes of Israel.

"for their own protection" is Orthodox speak for separate but unequal. I find the excuses worthless and the more of this shit that keeps going the less i will care about Israel.

Take the public transportation, now many don't know this but if Rosa Parks were to ride a bus in Israel, she would be confined to the back of the bus and if she resisted, she would be arrested for it.

Not because she's black though, Orthodox cunts have deemed that much like Muslims, Jews aren't capable of self control so the women must be separated from the men on public transportation, same goes for a whole lot of other places.

I'm sorry Israel, i guess i'm not one of yours after all.

What I had in mind was what happened during WWII and how most nations abandoned, ignored and/or aided in their persecution . This included allied and neutral nations. Simply put, they need their own country BUT due to it being a religious based country it's not a very pretty one. I still think this country should have been in Africa or somewhere less prone to conflicts -_-.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Yes, due to the fact the US is predominantly Christian, the constitution should be changed so all those who immigrate to the US should take an oath to Christianity.

Yeah...here's the current US oath:

I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God.


Israel's oath is pretty disgusting compared to modern standards, IMO.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
Actually, it isn't a different case, my mother was a Jew, that makes me a Jew, the Jews are Jews by heritage, the religion has nothing to do with who is a Jew in the eyes of Israel.

"for their own protection" is Orthodox speak for separate but unequal. I find the excuses worthless and the more of this shit that keeps going the less i will care about Israel.

Take the public transportation, now many don't know this but if Rosa Parks were to ride a bus in Israel, she would be confined to the back of the bus and if she resisted, she would be arrested for it.

Not because she's black though, Orthodox cunts have deemed that much like Muslims, Jews aren't capable of self control so the women must be separated from the men on public transportation, same goes for a whole lot of other places.

sadly that truly is the case...
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
I know Israel was founded as Jewish nation for Jews etc etc but this is pretty fucking stupid.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Its a totally separate side issue regarding Israel being a national home land for the Jews.

The total untruth is contained in, "Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said the bill reflected the essence of Israel at a time when he said many in the world are trying to blur the connection between the Jewish people and their homeland.

"The state of Israel is the national state of the Jewish people and is a democratic state in which all its citizens — Jews and non-Jews — enjoy full equal rights," he said. "Whoever wants to join us, has to recognize us."
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Which is an entire lie told over 3 million times, , a damn lie, and not a statistic.

One of the promises early Israel leaders made to the UN conditional to the formation of the State of was to treat all inhabitants of the former British mandate of Palestine equally, that promise is proving true of all Jews, only partially true for some Arabs,and totally untrue for Palestinians who went from first class citizens in the land of their birth to third class citizens with no rights at all.

Just for sake of review, Netanyuhu said, "Jews and non-Jews — enjoy full equal rights,"

It would be a credit to Israeli democracy if that were true, but its nothing but a damned lie and its time we ALL RECOGNIZE THAT LIE FOR WHAT IT IS.

And if the settler parties have their way, they already have plans to expel ALL ISRAELI ARABS.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
Which is an entire lie told over 3 million times, , a damn lie, and not a statistic.

One of the promises early Israel leaders made to the UN conditional to the formation of the State of was to treat all inhabitants of the former British mandate of Palestine equally, that promise is proving true of all Jews, only partially true for some Arabs,and totally untrue for Palestinians who went from first class citizens in the land of their birth to third class citizens with no rights at all.-- you have no proof of that...you are just speculating and eating your shrooms again!!

Just for sake of review, Netanyuhu said, "Jews and non-Jews — enjoy full equal rights,"

It would be a credit to Israeli democracy if that were true, but its nothing but a damned lie and its time we ALL RECOGNIZE THAT LIE FOR WHAT IT IS. -- of course you would know a lie...after over 1/2 of what you claim to know is dreamed up or comnjured up lies by you!!
And if the settler parties have their way, they already have plans to expel ALL ISRAELI ARABS. -- again you have no proof...your just foaming at the mouth!!
too funny...
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,561
4
0
As a Jew I find this offensive. I would not take such an oath if I wanted to emigrate to Israel.
 

nonlnear

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2008
2,497
0
76
Nothing wrong with this!! Immigrants who come to America and become citizens have to do sort of the same thing!!
Pledging allegiance to a "Jewish and democratic" state is NOTHING like what immigrants to the US pledge. American immigrants don't even pledge loyalty to the USA. Immigrants to the USA pledge to uphold and defend the Constitution (the laws of the state being subject to the Constitution of course). This means that if the USA were to flagrantly violate the Constitution in a manner that curtails the lawful functioning of government then an immigrant who took the oath could even take up arms against the state without violating the oath.
 
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