Next ship stopped to get equipped with live streaming satellite video. And Israel already tried this Rambo sh!t, blew up in their face
This thread can be summed up thusly:
In this corner...facts.
And in this corner...DAMMIT, ISRAEL IS AT FAULT.
more like:
in this corner ... reason
and in this corder ... giyus
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Or maybe we can better describe it as.
In one corner are a fairly small number of totally pro Israeli fan clubbers whose main facts are based on the assumption that Israel can do no wrong.
In the other corner are a comparatively small number of people somewhat oppositely convinced Israel has been wrong in the past and is wrong again this time.
Standing on the sidelines are billions of other less opinionated people half way watching subsequent events unfold. And its that group that really matters, and if Israel is not damn careful, world opinion could turn decidedly against Israel. And if it does, Israel is going to be toast. Or alternately world opinion could stay with Israel.
But that is the battlefield right now and on such battlefields, the most thuggish loses.
This thread can be summed up thusly:
In this corner...facts.
And in this corner...DAMMIT, ISRAEL IS AT FAULT.
^^^
now you're just being selectively ignorant and have dropped to a new low of pathetic. You have your temporary talking point and are trying to milk it for all it's worth.
Israel should sink the next ship the same way North Korea sank the South Korean vessel. The "international community" for sure will wait and demand 100% proof of what happened before coming to any action!
But you all know what's absolutely fucking hilarious? I'm relatively new here to AT P&N, I was searching around, reading some of the old threads in here - you all have had the same argument on the same topic with the same opponent users for years on end!
Oh, but this time for sure the words will make a difference! Now is surely the time my opponent will see the errors in his ways! This incident has made large strides in bringing the world to resolution!
Fact is the blockade has not deposed Hamas, but has left Israel more isolated internationally. Why? Because targeting civilian goods instead of focusing on weapons has left the people of Gaza more dependent on Hamas, and more supportive of it's policies. And it turned this blockade from a legitimate security measure to prevent weapon imports to an act of collective punishment on civilian population, something no longer accepted from a country that expects to be accepted as a civilized nation.
Fact is the blockade has not deposed Hamas, but has left Israel more isolated internationally. Why? Because targeting civilian goods instead of focusing on weapons has left the people of Gaza more dependent on Hamas, and more supportive of it's policies. And it turned this blockade from a legitimate security measure to prevent weapon imports to an act of collective punishment on civilian population, something no longer accepted from a country that expects to be accepted as a civilized nation.
israel hasn't been targeting civilian goods, or else it wouldn't be the principal supporter of Gaza, while the arab states do absolutely nothing.
the "blockade" is solely about preventing weapons smuggling and keeping hamas operatives from kidnapping israeli soldiers.
it's not against the rules.
And no international body has managed to come up with a compelling argument other than gazans are starving (not true) and they need more aid (not true again).
we have video, eye-witness testimony, interviews, and sound-video footage showing exactly what the passangers did.
Hamas = Gazan will for the destruction of Israel and the extermination of the Jews.
Or maybe we can better describe it as.
In one corner are a fairly small number of totally pro Israeli fan clubbers whose main facts are based on the assumption that Israel can do no wrong.
You are being disingenuous in saying that the blockade has only targeted civilian goods.
you think israel gives a flying shit about the international community if its desires conflict with israel's right to live in peace?
israel hasn't been targeting civilian goods, or else it wouldn't be the principal supporter of Gaza, while the arab states do absolutely nothing.
the "blockade" is solely about preventing weapons smuggling and keeping hamas operatives from kidnapping israeli soldiers.
many countries place blockades on their enemies - north korea, iran, cuba, iraq, etc.
it's not against the rules.
And no international body has managed to come up with a compelling argument other than gazans are starving (not true) and they need more aid (not true again).
palestinians have more than enough aid to last them centuries, and a very young capable population that could be part of a future economy independent of israel.
but endless handouts and eternal victimhood is far more lucrative. why should palestinians make peace when their homicidal actions are minimized, and israel's reactions are portrayed to be acts of random aggression against innocent civilians?
we have video, eye-witness testimony, interviews, and sound-video footage showing exactly what the passangers did.
of course BBC and the rest of the world media refuse to print anything critical of the hamas narrative, and continue to quote the passengers who were deported from the flotilla.
they still believe more people were killed and israel covered it up.
people accuse israel of handling this wrong, no they didn't. they put an extradionary amount of energy into showing their side, including bringing cameras and video along with them.
no other military does this. US and british forces bar military from accessing their operations until after the fight is over, and mainstream presses never question NATO spokesperson.
turkey bars the media and kurdistan, and pakistan bars media from their war in the north.
i especially love turkey's outrage here, considering their ugly oppression of the kurdish people.
hundreds of kurdish children die every day in south east turkey of starvation.
the international community continues to say nothing about turkey's disgusting apartheid-like policies towards their kurds.
when will we see their military tried for war crimes? when will the UN issue an emergency session to attend to the rights and needs of defenseless kurds?
for now they're on their own, as the UN, the left, and EU are too busy up israel's ass.
every time turkey has ruthlessly responded to kurdish terrorism, the EU has commended turkey and recognized their right to self-defense, never using words like "disproportionate use of force."
and just so every knows, nearly 3x as many people have died since the 1970s in turkey's war than the last 100 years of conflict between israel and palestinians.
No no no you have it all wrong!
They only want to exterminate the current population of Jews. Once they have been destroyed, Hamas will then agree to humanely govern over any new converts to the Jewish faith!
It's not the religion they seek to destroy, only those who currently believe in it!
I do believe that the path of jihad is expressed in many ways and there are innumerable dupes that subscribe to propaganda that validates their own hatred for a "freedom culture."Q: Why are Islam and the Left, as you demonstrate in "The Grand Jihad," not such strange bedfellows?
A: "For all their disagreements on matters like women's rights, gay rights and abortion, Islam and the Left are in harmony on big-picture matters: They are authoritarian, totalitarian in the sense of wanting to control all aspects of human existence, virulently anti-capitalist, and regard the individual as existing merely to serve the collective.
Consequently, they have the same obstacle in common: our freedom culture - i.e., Western liberalism, U.S. constitutional republicanism, and their foundation, individual liberty.
Historically, Islam and the Left ally when there is a common enemy.
But I'd stress that what I am talking about here is an alliance, not a merger.
...our policy-makers obsess over "one tactic, terrorism" while ignoring terrorism's goal: Islamization through the implementation of Sharia (Islamic law)."
I asked him to explain.
He replied: "From the beginning of my involvement in counterterrorism in the early nineties, I've been struck by the government's portrayal of terrorists as beasts who kill for no better reason than to kill - as if the fact that they are brutal means that they are insane.
Government does this as part of its narrative that terrorists couldn't possibly be accurately representing a well-grounded interpretation of Islam, and therefore must be `perverting' or `hijacking' Islam, or must be traitors against the `true Islam.'
"There is a logic to terrorism. It is jihad, the purpose of which is to implement, spread, defend or vindicate Sharia, the Muslim legal code. Sharia is deemed in Islamist ideology to be the necessary precondition to Islamicizing a society.
Once you realize that, you quickly realize that the same Sharia-driven campaign can be waged, and is being waged, by non-violent means, and that the violent and non-violent methods are inextricably linked."
I didn't say that at all, and you are being disingenuous in claiming I did. I will leave you with rest of your strawman argument.
LOL! Last I read anything from Hamas, they just view the extermination of the Jews as a first step. If you are an unbeliever, your time will come, just you wait!
Myself, I actually believe they will kill the atheists and the progressives first as the greatest violators of Islamic mores. But I have also read they would like to keep them around as willing slaves.
It is amazing is how those of the "progressive" left, like many who post here, have allied with those who would destroy them without mercy, right after they take care of the rest of us.
Lie. They target lots of non-weapon items. Chocolate, fishing supplies, potato chips, meat.
It is in this case.
In reality they have come up with an argument, the people of Gaza are starving (you've been proved wrong on this several times) and they do need more aid.
Yep, Israel shot at the ship, then attacked it from helicopter, passengers defended themselves.
Hey are you one of those hasbara/megaphone peeps?
LOL oh noes potato chips!!111 What will gazans ever do without them?
NO IT ISN'T. You can't keep repeating yourself without providing sources. You say the UN has called the blockade illegal, and you have yet to provide sources proving this.
Please tell me how people are starving. 73 life expectancy, 4 kids per woman, special refugee organization just for them, world-record holders in humanitarian aid.
please, show me some starvation. i dare ya.
LOL!. IDF navy seals boarded the ships, al jazeera cameraman reported turkish commanders trying to kidnap 4 israeli soldiers, passengers "defending themselves" start attacking the soldiers and then a fire-fight breaks out.
at this point you have become a lobbyist for jihadist. even when detailed facts coming from historically pro-palestinian sources conflict with the hamas narrative, you refuse to accept it.
the IDF soldiers acted in self-defense. they had every right to board the ship, and if they didn't the legitimacy of the blockade would be reduced and would set the stage for more challenges and potential conflicts.
though i imagine you want that.
Do you support Hamas, their goals and their methods or do you believe they should be removed from power?
The Gazans are starving metaphorically. True, they can still build their own rockets and launch them into Israel, but without potato chips and chocolate it's hardly worth watching them be launched.
Seriously, Israel needs to explain why some of these things are on the prohibited list. I have no problem with them prohibiting anything they wish, but if they have justification they should make it as public as possible. It's just good politics.
I don't support any government that targets civilians for collective punishment, as Hamas has done with their rocket attacks. I apply that same standard to Israeli government.