israeli navy fires on Gaza aid flotilla

[senseamp]

When looking at the unofficial lists that have been published it seems pretty selft explanitory.

The prohibited items include anything that could be used to make a weapon or fortification, and anything perceived as a luxury/entertainment or non-necessity type item.

That's not going to fly going forward.

 

[flavio]

LOL oh noes potato chips!!111 What will gazans ever do without them?

Yes, all kinds of food, livestock, fishing supplies, stuff for greenhouses, stuff for hatcheries, seeds, etc.

So you lied when you said they were only targeting weapons.

NO IT ISN'T. You can't keep repeating yourself without providing sources. You say the UN has called the blockade illegal, and you have yet to provide sources proving this.

For the 20th time.

Please tell me how people are starving. 73 life expectancy, 4 kids per woman, special refugee organization just for them, world-record holders in humanitarian aid.

How the fuck is life expectancy or number of kids relevant? The only way it would be even remotely relevant is if you compared just before the blockade to now.

please, show me some starvation. i dare ya.

http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20070820_starving_gaza/

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-...eli-blockades-effects-palestinians-2010-06-01

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=6817

LOL!. IDF navy seals boarded the ships, al jazeera cameraman reported turkish commanders trying to kidnap 4 israeli soldiers, passengers "defending themselves" start attacking the soldiers and then a fire-fight breaks out.

Israelis shot at the ship, then attacked dropping armed commandos from helicopter, passengers defended themselves.

at this point you have become a lobbyist for jihadist. even when detailed facts coming from historically pro-palestinian sources conflict with the hamas narrative, you refuse to accept it.

There are no facts coming from pro-Palestinian sources that contradict what I've said.

You are an Israeli apologist. You keep avoiding the question whether you're one of those hasbara/megaphone people. Very telling.

the IDF soldiers acted in self-defense. they had every right to board the ship,

No, they attacked before they even boarded. The boarding attempt was an attack. They had no right to attack the ship. The passengers defended themselves.

and if they didn't the legitimacy of the blockade would be reduced and would set the stage for more challenges and potential conflicts.

Hell yes! The illegitimacy of the blockade is now known to the world.

 

[flavio]

The prohibited items include anything that could be used to make a weapon or fortification, and anything perceived as a luxury/entertainment or non-necessity type item.

Fuck Israel if they think they can deny people luxuries or entertainment.

Luxuries like fishing poles, seeds, greenhouse equipment, hatchery supplies, livestock, meat, irrigation supplies, dried fruit, heaters,...

Sounds totally reasonable.

 

[PJABBER]

That's not going to fly going forward.

How about the complete disarmament of Hamas, the UN enforced designation of Gaza as a demilitarized zone and a UN monitored line that the Israelis cannot cross unless they are attacked?

 

[senseamp]

How about the complete disarmament of Hamas, the UN enforced designation of Gaza as a demilitarized zone and a UN monitored line that the Israelis cannot cross unless they are attacked?

Maybe, but collective punishment definitely not.

 

[flavio]

How about the complete disarmament of Hamas, the UN enforced designation of Gaza as a demilitarized zone and a UN monitored line that the Israelis cannot cross unless they are attacked?

How about a disarmament of Hamas and Israel?

 

[PJABBER]

Maybe, but collective punishment definitely not.

I agree, it is the people of both Gaza and Israel that have suffered for lack of a solution.

This blockade is a stop gap.

Until someone disarms Hamas, and it will likely be the Israelis rather than the U.N., though they have shown remarkable restain thus far even as they were attacked by 10,000 Hamas rockets and suicide bombers, the problems will continue.

I am a pessimist in this matter. I believe resolution will only come out of war. All else is prelude and positioning.

 

[ConstipatedVigilante]

How about a disarmament of Hamas and Israel?

flavio, you keep saying that the Israeli navy fired on the ship, which would change the story quite a bit from the commandos being the only attack. Can you provide a link that mentions Israeli boats firing on the flotilla?

 

[werepossum]

When looking at the unofficial lists that have been published it seems pretty selft explanitory.

The prohibited items include anything that could be used to make a weapon or fortification, and anything perceived as a luxury/entertainment or non-necessity type item.

Perhaps. I really don't have a problem with Israel saying we're not allowing you any luxuries because you freely elected a fucking terrorist organization dedicated to our destruction as your leadership and you fire rockets and mortars into our towns. I'm just saying that they should explain themselves. Note that I have no problem with collective punishment, from our bombing Nazi Germany even though they weren't all Nazis to my being unable to buy Cuban cigars because my leadership decrees it so. Nations must be treated as nations, they are simply too big to deal with them individually.

 

[senseamp]

Perhaps. I really don't have a problem with Israel saying we're not allowing you any luxuries because you freely elected a fucking terrorist organization dedicated to our destruction as your leadership and you fire rockets and mortars into our towns. I'm just saying that they should explain themselves. Note that I have no problem with collective punishment, from our bombing Nazi Germany even though they weren't all Nazis to my being unable to buy Cuban cigars because my leadership decrees it so. Nations must be treated as nations, they are simply too big to deal with them individually.

If you have no problem with targeting civilians for collective punishment, what's your beef with Hamas?

 

[werepossum]

If you have no problem with targeting civilians for collective punishment, what's your beef with Hamas?

Umm, they are terrorists.

I realize that in your world denying someone chocolate may be much more heinous than, say, lobbing rockets into neighborhoods or kidnapping or torturing people to death. Please realize that in my world the opposite is true.

 

[GuitarDaddy]

Maybe, but collective punishment definitely not.

You guys scream about collective punishment, what do you call it when rockets are fired on the Isreali civillian population?

When will you guys ever understand that the instant you resort to an act of war and kill or attempt to kill civillians you give up all right to claim persicution or mis treatment. It's kind of tough feeling sorry for Palestinians because Isreal denies them chocolate when the official government of Gaza officially subscribes to the death of all Isrealis.

 

[senseamp]

Umm, they are terrorists.

I realize that in your world denying someone chocolate may be much more heinous than, say, lobbing rockets into neighborhoods or kidnapping or torturing people to death. Please realize that in my world the opposite is true.

But if you have no problem with targeting civilians for collective punishment, what's your problem with the above? You already said you are fine with bombing civilians as we did with Nazi Germany.

 

[senseamp]

You guys scream about collective punishment, what do you call it when rockets are fired on the Isreali civillian population?

Collective punishment.

When will you guys ever understand that the instant you resort to an act of war and kill or attempt to kill civillians you give up all right to claim persicution or mis treatment.

Does that apply to Israel or only Hamas?

It's kind of tough feeling sorry for Palestinians because Isreal denies them chocolate when the official government of Gaza officially subscribes to the death of all Isrealis.

Kinda hard feeling sorry for Israelis too, since their government targets civilians for collective punishment as well.

 

[flavio]

flavio, you keep saying that the Israeli navy fired on the ship, which would change the story quite a bit from the commandos being the only attack. Can you provide a link that mentions Israeli boats firing on the flotilla?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire

http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0531/ra...laims-israelis-fired-activists-boarding-ship/

Here's a quote from one of Anandtech's Israel supporters...

They have already admitted to shooting rubber bullets and using concussion grenades to try to protect their landing people.

 

[flavio]

Perhaps. I really don't have a problem with Israel saying we're not allowing you any luxuries because you freely elected a fucking terrorist organization dedicated to our destruction as your leadership and you fire rockets and mortars into our towns.

Israelis kill Palestinians -> Palestinians fire rockets -> Israelis bomb Palestinians-> Palestinians blow up shit -> Israels kill Palestinians.....repeat.

 

[werepossum]

Quote:
Originally Posted by werepossum View Post
Umm, they are terrorists.

I realize that in your world denying someone chocolate may be much more heinous than, say, lobbing rockets into neighborhoods or kidnapping or torturing people to death. Please realize that in my world the opposite is true.
But if you have no problem with targeting civilians for collective punishment, what's your problem with the above? You already said you are fine with bombing civilians as we did with Nazi Germany.

You seriously want to know my beef with terrorism? Seriously? You see no difference between a blockade (or a war) and you expect a rational response on my beef with terrorism?

Unfuckingbelievable. You have now established the moral equivalency between a blockade denying someone chocolate and terrorism - they are both collective punishment. Your mum must be so proud.

 

[flavio]

You seriously want to know my beef with terrorism?

Yeah terrorism sucks when either side does it.

 

[senseamp]

You seriously want to know my beef with terrorism? Seriously? You see no difference between a blockade (or a war) and you expect a rational response on my beef with terrorism?

Unfuckingbelievable. You have now established the moral equivalency between a blockade denying someone chocolate and terrorism - they are both collective punishment. Your mum must be so proud.

You said you are fine with bombing civilian population when you mentioned Nazi Germany. So it's not just about denying them chocolate.

 

[werepossum]

You said you are fine with bombing civilian population when you mentioned Nazi Germany. So it's not just about denying them chocolate.

Except in this case, it is.

 

[senseamp]

Except in this case, it is.

But you have no problem with collective punishment of civilian population, up to and including bombing, which Israel has done as well.
Plus, in "this case," Hamas hasn't killed any civilians, Israel has.

 

[Atheus]

Isreal supporters: What would you do if you were a Palestinian? Simply accept that you will never be free? Flee your own country?

It always amazes me that Americans of all the people of the world, whose entire culture is based on revolution and independence, believe the Palestinians should be denied their freedom.

I realize that in your world denying someone chocolate may be much more heinous than, say, lobbing rockets into neighborhoods or kidnapping or torturing people to death. Please realize that in my world the opposite is true.

And you - so you would have no problem with some other nation controling your import of luxury goods? This wouldn't be worth fighting over? Wasn't there some small arguement about tea in the 18th century...

 

[PJABBER]

Collective punishment..

The Israelis have been entirely too kind to Hamas and it has led to nothing more than an unnecessary standoff where people like you can claim "collective punishment," when it really is just a form of limited war.

While I am all for peace, Hamas is not and therefore with continuing belligerency there is a casus belli and Israel would be fully justified in attacking Hamas with all the resources necessary to destroy them.

That they have not is truly amazing, for no State seeking a peaceful existence is obligated to tolerate the lawlessness and attacks which come from such a neighbor. And especially as Israel left Gaza to allow a chance for peaceful co-existence.

War is not limited to actions between militaries. As in the war against Germany that all know so well, the population also engages, and, specifically to this case, it was the population of Gaza that empowered the leadership of Hamas and they are not innocent parties to whatever the Hamas leadership does in their name.

The light touch of the current blockade can be made much heavier, but a direct invasion to remove Hamas from power is the only reasonable course for the Israelis.

All else is prevarication.

As Hamas since its founding has been waging war against Israel, even as Israel left Gaza to allow for a Palestinian governed State, you can argue and do that Hamas has a right to continue to wage war against an Israeli State that opposes Hamas' "freedom" to kill Jews and denies them chocolate and coriander.

But, such a "right," recognized only by other fanatical Islamists and the libtards as we find at ATP&N, is entirely subject to how long Israel is willing to tolerate it.

As the more powerful State, and we all know that in war might makes right, Israel should recognize there is going to be no compromise and act to ensure the safety and security of its population. If the Israeli government does not do so then they must be replaced until one defends the nation from such genocidal intent or bows in a defeat easily won.

Guess which one is the more likely outcome?

 

[Sclamoz]

Isreal supporters: What would you do if you were a Palestinian? Simply accept that you will never be free? Flee your own country?

If I was in charge of Palestine I would negotiate a complete surrender. The Palestinians fought multiple wars against Israel and lost and now they're just dragging it out making their own lives worse while their enemy gets stronger and they get weaker and poorer.

 

[Atheus]

If I was in charge of Palestine I would negotiate a complete surrender. The Palestinians fought multiple wars against Israel and lost and now they're just dragging it out making their own lives worse while their enemy gets stronger and they get weaker and poorer.

You're not in charge you're an ordinary guy - what do you do?