israeli navy fires on Gaza aid flotilla

[SamurAchzar]

I'm just amazed at how low and stupid the Hamas choir can go, releasing pictures of soldiers clearly supporting Israel's claims. I guess they will shoot their legs clean off just to humiliate a Jewish soldier.

Anyway, I hope the Israeli government learned a lesson, and next time, the commandos will be sent in their regular battle gear with clear "shoot to kill" ROE, and fuck the world. Let Arduan bitch for all he likes, it's not worth the life of one Israeli soldier.

 

[Pulsar]

I don't know why people show you anything flavio. Your method of operation is pretty transparent.

When people give you a reputable news source that you disagree with, you say it's propaganda. When people give you pictures, you say they can't prove where they came from, or that they are doctored.

Yet when you find a news source that says something you agree with, then it's suddenly ok. When you find pictures that you agree with, then they're valid and must be real.

It's pointless arguing with you. You aren't interested in discourse. In point of fact, you're a lot like those so-called humanitarians. You're spoiling for a fight and just looking for someone to give it to you.

So, one last time.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_flotilla_raid

Though the boarding of five of the ships passed without serious incident, the boarding of the MV Mavi Marmara turned deadly when activists aboard the ship clashed violently with the Israeli landing party immediately after the latter rappelled onto the deck.[3][2][11][12]

(So Israel just decided to randomly attack one ship, but take control of the others peacefully?)

The sequence of events is disputed. Israeli soldiers rappelled onto the deck from helicopters.[17] Passengers say that the Israelis opened fire before boarding, while Israelis say that the firing occurred after soldiers were ambushed by passengers, and have released a video that shows events of the landing to back up their assertion.[17][18][19][20][21]

According to Israeli authorities and some reporters present, activists attacked its troops with live ammunition from pistols wrested from soldiers.
What reason would these humanitarian reports have to lie?

Hamas refused to allow this shipment into Gaza unless Israel released all individuals detained from the flotilla and agreed to allow the flotilla organizers deliver the supplies directly into Gaza, including construction materials, without Israeli inspections.[29][30]

Sounds like they are really worried about their people having shortages of critical supplies.

The Gaza Freedom Flotilla, comprised of eight ships, was organized to break Israel's naval blockade of the Gaza Strip.[36]

Unlike previous attempts, this flotilla, the largest sent by far, was dominated not by the Free Gaza Movement, which sent only one small passenger boat, but by three ships sent by an Islamic aid group from Turkey, the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedom and Humanitarian Relief (IHH).[19]

Before the raid occurred, the movement released a statement announcing: "A violent response from Israel will breathe new life into the Palestine solidarity movement, drawing attention to the blockade.”[43][44]

The flotilla organisers rejected Israel's offer, saying that Israelis would not let the reconstruction aid into Gaza,[77] and further "This mission is not about delivering humanitarian supplies, it's about breaking Israel's siege on 1.5 million Palestinians...[74][78][36]

Some of the activists who would later die during the MV Mavi Marmara clash spoke of dreams of martyrdom. Ali Khaider Benginin told his family before leaving, "I am going to be a shahid; I dreamt I will become a shahid – I saw in a dream that I will be killed."[81] His wife also said that he "constantly prayed to become a martyr."[82] On 3 June, the IDF released footage from a Press TV interview before the raid in which a flotilla passenger says, "With the help of God, I will be a shahid."[83]. On 29 May, Aljazeera broadcast footage of some activists on the MV Mavi Marmara participating in a chant invoking battle against Jews.[82][84][/I]

According to Espen Goffeng, a 38-year-old activist from Norway who sailed aboard the Mavi Marmara, "[t]hey [IDF commandos] started off with some kind of paintball bullets with glass in them that left terrible soft tissue wounds. And then rubber bullets. And then live ammunition afterwards. And that's when things started to get really dangerous."[15]

A senior military Norwegian officer Palle Ydstebø said that the pictures show no military weapons and many common items found on any boat, but that some of the items are effective battlefield weapons, including types of weapons used in the intifada, and indicate that some activists may have premeditated violence.[160]

Many legal assessments of the Gaza flotilla raid were published subsequent to the event. International law experts (and non-lawyers) differed over the legality of the Israel action. Some, such as Harvard Law School Professor Dershowitz, Chicago Law School Professor Posner, and Johns Hopkins international law Professor Wedgwood, said that the naval blockade, the boarding in international waters, and the use of force were in accord with long-standing international law.[215][216][217]

Others, in contrast, such as İstanbul Bilgi University Law Department Dean Turgut Tarhanlı said that the blockade was illegal, or agreed with University of Dundee international law professor Robin Churchill that the boarding on the high seas was illegal, or agreed with international law professor Said Mahmoudi that the use of force was not proportional and was therefore illegal.[218][219][220] Both sides generally agreed that Israel was required to respond with only a proportional use of force in the face of violent resistance; whether the force used was proportional was disputed by some.[7][221]

I'm done.

 

[senseamp]

I'm just amazed at how low and stupid the Hamas choir can go, releasing pictures of soldiers clearly supporting Israel's claims. I guess they will shoot their legs clean off just to humiliate a Jewish soldier.

Anyway, I hope the Israeli government learned a lesson, and next time, the commandos will be sent in their regular battle gear with clear "shoot to kill" ROE, and fuck the world. Let Arduan bitch for all he likes, it's not worth the life of one Israeli soldier.

Iran would love for Israel to take that position.

 

[flavio]

monodweiss, lol?

why do you accuse everyone of lying?

You are the one who lies. You accuse me of lying, then when i provide sources and images you go on another tanget.

Here, I'll post the sources again:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100602/ap_on_re_eu/eu_gaza_ships_terror_ties

Turkish aid group has TIES TO FLOTILLA BOUND SHIP

Bin Laden connection:

Wrong.
http://mondoweiss.net/2010/06/terror-smear-against-ihh-springs-from-a-familar-source.html

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?ID=177457

night-vision goggles and bullet proof vests on-board:

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177342

Ammunition dump:

http://www.jpost.com/Headlines/Article.aspx?id=177475

JPost is an Israeli propaganda site. Please post evidence from credible sources.

Even as such JPost does not say they had weapons or ammo. They say "may have had ammo".

In short. You have been busted for lying.

Jews are dogs:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk&playnext_from=TL&videos=xK7NQ6k8OUQ

Propaganda video from propagandist "palwatch" which shows people (we don't know who) saying something (we don't know what).

Forgive me if I don't trust "palwatch" to tell me who they are or what they are saying.

Find a credible source.

Hamas rally:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SCR1-jRf5HY&playnext_from=TL&videos=kCkICPKJRKk

Anymore questions?

Another youtube propaganda video (with comments disable LOL).

Find a credible source.

The "20 truckloads of aid" was largely worthless.

Straight up lie.

Hamas has said it won't allow any of the aid enter Gaza, even though the IDF has it waiting at the crossing.

Tell me flavio, if Gaza is starving, why won't Hamas accept the aid?

"Gaza officials have refused roughly 20 truckloads of aid confiscated from the "Freedom Flotilla," saying the goods were broken and that they would not accept goods while any flotilla activists were still detained"

The problem with "aid to gaza" is that there is no place to store it.

You made this up.

We know this because the boat was loaded with non-aid materials.

No the boats were loaded with thousands of tons of aid.

The only reason the activists would not allow inspection is because they had something to hide.

Lie. They did not want to allow Israel to commandeer their ship ilegaly and steal half the aid.

The argument that israel wants to end aid to Gaza

Nobody made that argument. Straw man.

So feel free to accuse me of being a lying scumbag, it won't change your amusing yet offensive knee-jerk apologism for islamist trolls.

Back up your claims with credible sources or nobody is going to take you seriously.

Also, why won't you answer if you're one of those hasbara/megaphone people?

 

[jpeyton]

I'm not sure why anyone here would trust Israeli propaganda after they doctored the audio of the footage being released:

http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/id...o-clip-washington-posts-kessler-must-retract/

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=289874

 

[flavio]

I don't know why people show you anything flavio. Your method of operation is pretty transparent.

Yes, prove the propagandists wrong with reason and facts.

When people give you a reputable news source that you disagree with, you say it's propaganda.

No, when they give me jpost or youtube I call them on it.

When people give you pictures, you say they can't prove where they came from

Exactly, pictures from blog sites that aren't being used on any credible news site are extremely suspect.

Yet when you find a news source that says something you agree with, then it's suddenly ok.

Yes, almost all credible news sources support my position.

It's pointless arguing with you. You aren't interested in discourse.

I'm interested in rational discourse of facts. Not the propaganda and insults that IHV engages in.


In point of fact, you're a lot like those so-called humanitarians. You're spoiling for a fight and just looking for someone to give it to you.

Though the boarding of five of the ships passed without serious incident, the boarding of the MV Mavi Marmara turned deadly when activists aboard the ship clashed violently with the Israeli landing party immediately after the latter rappelled onto the deck.[3][2][11][12]

(So Israel just decided to randomly attack one ship, but take control of the others peacefully?)

The were injuries on the other ships.

But yes, Israel did attack this ship.

"The crack of an Israeli sound grenade and a hail of rubber bullets from above were supposed to disperse activists, but instead set them in motion. And when three Israeli commandos slid down ropes out of helicopters to take over the ship, a crowd set upon them."

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/05/world/europe/05reconstruct.html?ref=world

Israel attacked the passengers defended their ship. This is clear cut.

The sequence of events is disputed. Israeli soldiers rappelled onto the deck from helicopters.[17] Passengers say that the Israelis opened fire before boarding, while Israelis say that the firing occurred after soldiers were ambushed by passengers, and have released a video that shows events of the landing to back up their assertion.[17][18][19][20][21]

All videos have shown Israel attacking a ship doing nothing illegal and the passengers defending themselves. IDF was trying to ambush the ship.

You like YouTube videos? Here ya go.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltCB4

According to Israeli authorities and some reporters present, activists attacked its troops with live ammunition from pistols wrested from soldiers.
What reason would these humanitarian reports have to lie?

They're not lying, after the Israelis attacked the ship the some passengers defended themselves with guns wrestled away from their attackers.

Hamas refused to allow this shipment into Gaza unless Israel released all individuals detained from the flotilla and agreed to allow the flotilla organizers deliver the supplies directly into Gaza, including construction materials, without Israeli inspections.[29][30]

Sounds like they are really worried about their people having shortages of critical supplies.

Sounds like their worried about the kidnapped humanitarians.

 

[flavio]

I'm not sure why anyone here would trust Israeli propaganda after they doctored the audio of the footage being released:

http://maxblumenthal.com/2010/06/id...o-clip-washington-posts-kessler-must-retract/

http://www.maannews.net/eng/ViewDetails.aspx?ID=289874

"The IDF admitted today in a press release that it doctored audio footage from its exchanges with the Gaza flotilla in order to paint the flotilla passengers as anti-Semites."

Ooops!

 

[fallenangel99]

Israel edited the Gaza convoy tapes:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/06/gaza.flotilla.recordings/index.html?hpt=T2

I don't know - this seems such a bad, bad move on Israel's part (and to use Holocaust references too)

 

[SamurAchzar]

Iran would love for Israel to take that position.

What Iran likes or doesn't like will stop being a factor pretty soon, regardless of what Israel does. Happily, Israel is not even on the top 3 of the countries that should be worried of a nuclear Iran.

Now, Israel has put itself in a corner where, because of weak-handed policies and an apologetic government, Muslims like Arduan feel free to stomp on it with no - even diplomatic - reply, and countries around the world nearly denounce its legitimacy. Who respects a country who apologizes for defending itself? What a joke of a country releases terrorists who attacked soldiers and got caught on TAPE, just to score some diplomatic points?

 

[nageov3t]

Israel should allow all future ships to dock in Gaza and just let them sit there and starve on the docks until they consent to have their cargo inspected.

 

[flavio]

What a joke of a country releases terrorists who attacked soldiers and got caught on TAPE, just to score some diplomatic points?

They weren't terrorists and the IDF got caught on TAPE (probably digital actually) attacking a humanitarian ship in international waters.

 

[Lemon law]

Just to show how deep in denial Israel is, they refused to call the ship they boarded by its proper name, the Rachel Corrie, and instead insisted on calling it by its presale name of the Linda.

How stupid is that? Short answer, almost as stupid as Condi Rice, a serial liar of the worst kind.

 

[flavio]

Israel should allow all future ships to dock in Gaza and just let them sit there and starve on the docks until they consent to have their cargo inspected.

All ships coming into Israel should be inspected for weapons and banned from haing any livestock, seeds, fishing supplies, or meat.

 

[flavio]

Israel edited the Gaza convoy tapes:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/06/gaza.flotilla.recordings/index.html?hpt=T2

I don't know - this seems such a bad, bad move on Israel's part (and to use Holocaust references too)

Makes you wonder how many times they've pulled this shit in the past and got away with it.

 

[nageov3t]

All ships coming into Israel should be inspected for weapons and banned from haing any livestock, seeds, fishing supplies, or meat.

ok, the Gazan navy is welcome to enforce that blockade.

 

[senseamp]

What Iran likes or doesn't like will stop being a factor pretty soon, regardless of what Israel does. Happily, Israel is not even on the top 3 of the countries that should be worried of a nuclear Iran.

Now, Israel has put itself in a corner where, because of weak-handed policies and an apologetic government, Muslims like Arduan feel free to stomp on it with no - even diplomatic - reply, and countries around the world nearly denounce its legitimacy. Who respects a country who apologizes for defending itself? What a joke of a country releases terrorists who attacked soldiers and got caught on TAPE, just to score some diplomatic points?

Every time there is a consensus forming on what to do with Iran, all it needs is a boat and a box of chocolates to send that back to square one. But hey, if Israel and its apologists want to stick to a blockade of civilian goods that only furthers Iranian diplomatic goals, while achieving none of Israel's (Shalit still captive, Hamas still in power, etc), I can't stop you.

 

[senseamp]

Makes you wonder how many times they've pulled this shit in the past and got away with it.

Gotta love the Israeli can do (anything we want and get away with it) spirit.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Every time there is a consensus forming on what to do with Iran, all it needs is a boat and a box of chocolates to send that back to square one. But hey, if Israel and its apologists want to stick to a blockade of civilian goods that only furthers Iranian diplomatic goals, while achieving none of Israel's (Shalit still captive, Hamas still in power, etc), I can't stop you.

Again Iran isn't the problem as Israel. If the European idiots want to "punish" Israel by letting Iran pursue nukes that will be very capable of reaching their capitals, it's their right.
I believe that Obama will have to take action if Iran actually makes a warhead (no stories, a real living warhead). He won't risk a nuclear arms race in the Mid East, and his Arab allies are going to give him a true inferno until he does something. Probably Iranians won't fuck a chap called "Hussein" so they'll back down in the last moment. They'll just economically and diplomatically extort the stupid, weak west.

 

[senseamp]

Again Iran isn't the problem as Israel. If the European idiots want to "punish" Israel by letting Iran pursue nukes that will be very capable of reaching their capitals, it's their right.
I believe that Obama will have to take action if Iran actually makes a warhead (no stories, a real living warhead). He won't risk a nuclear arms race in the Mid East, and his Arab allies are going to give him a true inferno until he does something. Probably Iranians won't fuck a chap called "Hussein" so they'll back down in the last moment. They'll just economically and diplomatically extort the stupid, weak west.

Just like Bush did something about a nuclear Pakistan or nuclear North Korea. Once Iran tests a nuke it's a done deal. Plus next thing that will happen is Israel testing it's own nuke to show they got one too, which will legitimize Iran's.
Arab allies don't have influence, if they did, Obama would be pressing Israel to change the blockade much more than he is.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Just like Bush did something about a nuclear Pakistan or nuclear North Korea. Once Iran tests a nuke it's a done deal. Plus next thing that will happen is Israel testing it's own nuke to show they got one too, which will legitimize Iran's.
Arab allies don't have influence, if they did, Obama would be pressing Israel to change the blockade much more than he is.

Sorry buddy but you're weak on Middle East politics. Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Abu-Dahbi, Kuwait, Egypt, and basically everyone outside immediate Iranian control in the Middle East is begging US to do something about the nukes of Iran. Now, do you know how much the leaders of these countries actually care about the Palestinians?
Let me tell you:

0.

Not only did Jordan massacred them in Black September, Egypt is the anvil to Israel's hammer in this blockade, yet no one speaks a word. No one gives a fuck about the Palestinians, they're a pet cause to keep the street mob happy, but beyond that their significance is negligible. The longer they keep their skirmish with Israel the better, it takes all eyes off the poverty and problems in Arab countries themselves.

Israel will never publicly test nukes, it serves absolutely no point other than to focus international attention on its arsenal. Ambiguity works just fine, why mess with it?

The chances of a nuclear Iran exist but are slim, one way or another. Someone will stop the madness - perhaps Iranians themselves.

Whatever Israel does or whatever diplomatic sanctions are imposed, this is all just a game in which the Mullahs sit on the side and laugh at the stupidity of westerns. You think sanctions will do anything other than make them more determined to get the golden bargaining chip? Ha. Oh, how the Mullahs would love sanctions, a way to deepen the control of their people and make them hate the west even more.

It's either a military operation or let them stop it on their own accord. Nothing more.

But anyway, this has nothing to do with the flotilla circus so I'll leave the debate where it is. We'll wait and see, who knows?

 

[flavio]

ok, the Gazan navy is welcome to enforce that blockade.

Maybe with NATO.

 

[SamurAchzar]

Maybe with NATO.

Of course, because Gaza is right in the middle of the North Atlantic.

 

[pcgeek11]

Maybe with NATO.

NATO is worthless.

 

[flavio]

releasing pictures of soldiers clearly supporting Israel's claims.

What pictures.

Anyway, I hope the Israeli government learned a lesson, and next time, the commandos will be sent in their regular battle gear with clear "shoot to kill" ROE, and fuck the world.

If they learned there lesson they will end the illegal blockade.

 

[flavio]

Of course, because Gaza is right in the middle of the North Atlantic.

Of course because, they never have any forces near Israel.