israeli navy fires on Gaza aid flotilla

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linkgoron

Platinum Member
Mar 9, 2005
2,395
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Oh well, I'm sure we'll get more than one conflicting reading of the San Remo Manual:

Here's one!

Note, I am only quoting the exact wording from the document, and highlighting one sub-section. Make of it what you will:

you copied sub-section 47.

47. The following classes of enemy vessels are exempt from attack:

(a) hospital ships;
(b) small craft used for coastal rescue operations and other medical transports;
(c) vessels granted safe conduct by agreement between the belligerent parties including:
(i) cartel vessels, e.g., vessels designated for and engaged in the transport of prisoners of war;
(ii) vessels engaged in humanitarian missions, including vessels carrying supplies indispensable to the survival of the civilian population, and vessels engaged in relief actions and rescue operations;
(d) vessels engaged in transporting cultural property under special protection;
(e) passenger vessels when engaged only in carrying civilian passengers;
(f) vessels charged with religious, non-military scientifc or philanthropic missions, vessels collecting scientific data of likely military applications are not protected;
(g) small coastal fishing vessels and small boats engaged in local coastal trade, but they are subject to the regulations of a belligerent naval commander operating in the area and to inspection;
(h) vessels designated or adapted exclusively for responding to pollution incidents in the marine environment;
(i) vessels which have surrendered;
(j) life rafts and life boats.


here the NEXT sub-section:

Conditions of exemption

48. Vessels listed in paragraph 47 are exempt from attack only if they:
(a) are innocently employed in their normal role;
(b) submit to identification and inspection when required; and
(c) do not intentionally hamper the movement of combatants and obey orders to stop or move out of the way when required.



For those questioning which section of San Remo I cite, try "103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:"

You're missing half of sub-section 103.

If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies, subject to:

(a) the right to prescribe the technical arrangements, including search, under which such passage is permitted; and
(b) the condition that the distribution of such supplies shall be made under the local supervision of a Protecting Power or a humanitarian organization which offers guarantees of impartiality, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
By the way, all the claims of the boarding of the ships being illegal because they were carrying humanitarian aid might be void because by carrying hundreds of "activists" they are no longer classed as humanitarian (the same as if you carry a ship full of bandages plus a bunch of guns).
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,143
10
81
Israeli fucked up on this one. they attacked a ship in interanational waters (and fucked up doing it).

no suprise most are against it.

both sides in this fight are wrong and have been doing questionable things for years. sadly its going to continue until one side is destroyed
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
Gotta love the Non Prof John Argument of, "The Israelis have guns, they can do whatever they want!"

So to Somalia pirates and bank robbers, but guns provide them no legitimacy.

And why engage in forum pissing contests, others and not us will decide, and I suspect this will very soon hit the UN. And I also suspect Israel is going to lose badly there.

If nothing else, Israel may lose a very valuable ally in Turkey. And may cause the UN to forward the Goldstone report to the Hague for prosecution.

Only time will tell.

We are engaging in this "forum pissing contest" because you made a claim that was clearly a load of crap. When we pointed this out you all of a sudden backtrack and say not to argue.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,545
9,876
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Question for you Lemon Law.

The SWAT teams breaks down your door, do you:

A. offer no resistance and comply with their orders
or
B. Charge at them with baseball bats screaming "you have no right to be here"

A. causes you a little inconvenience while B gets you killed.

Which would you choose?

Well, what if this SWAT team were operating outside of their legal jurisdiction (equivalent to international waters) and w/o a warrant from a judge.

Say they were doing so because they suspected you had drugs but a just completed and legally sanctioned search of your house (equivalent to the customs checks) specifically said otherwise.

This rogue SWAT team doesn't believe this so they break into your home in the early morning and you pick up a bat, as you say above, and scream "you have no right to be here" and rush them and they shoot you dead plus kill your son (early reports from the Israeli side put the dead @ 10-14) who is armed with a heavy and very sharply pointed Star Wars figurine and then they beat up your wife, who has come to your defense.

Who would be more in the wrong here?

Point is, we can all make our neat little analogies and pretend they represent the entire truth while righteously poking holes in others' competing analogies 'till the cows come home.

Hey, I sure as HELL wouldn't have wanted to be an Israeli commando rappelling down those lines and if I were, and I saw my mates being bum-rushed and overpowered and then shots were fired, I sure as hell would have responded with lethal force.

My point is, on balance, I consider this an unfortunate Israeli clusterfuck.

They won the battle, but it did not advance their cause in the ongoing war.
 

Aegeon

Golden Member
Nov 2, 2004
1,809
125
106
Well, what if this SWAT team were operating outside of their legal jurisdiction (equivalent to international waters) and w/o a warrant from a judge.

Say they were doing so because they suspected you had drugs but a just completed and legally sanctioned search of your house (equivalent to the customs checks) specifically said otherwise.
But it appears in this case the Israeli troops had the equivalent of a warrant and international law justifying the boarding and search so your analogy sucks.

(Boardings in international waters to enforce blockades of this general type are definitely legal, the US has done it and intended to do it with North Korean transports in the past, with the North Korean transport turning back to North Korea in the second case.)
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
if the swat team knocks on your door and you open fire on them, whether or not their initial knocking was legal is going to be a far distant concern.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,545
9,876
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But it appears in this case the Israeli troops had the equivalent of a warrant and international law justifying the boarding and search so your analogy sucks.

Your interpretation, which may prevail.

My small point was that all analogies tend to suck and can be savaged, including Prof Johns, including mine.

My larger point is that this was, on balance, an Israeli overreation and misstep. It may have been a tactical victory, but I believe it will prove to be a strategic mistake.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,545
9,876
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if the swat team knocks on your door and you open fire on them, whether or not their initial knocking was legal is going to be a far distant concern.

As a neighbor, how would you feel about it?

What would you envision the resulting publicity to be like?

Would you think it would be a victory for those police, or not?

These are some highly relevant strategic questions when you consider, on balance, the wisdom of this particular Israeli move.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
As a neighbor, how would you feel about it?

What would you envision the resulting publicity to be like?

Would you think it would be a victory for those police, or not?

These are some highly relevant strategic questions when you consider, on balance, the wisdom of this particular Israeli move.
as a neighbor, I have a hard time condemning a soldier for responding to gunfire with gunfire.

it might not have been the best possible move, but what should the response have been to being fired on?
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,545
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as a neighbor, I have a hard time condemning a soldier for responding to gunfire with gunfire.

So would I, as I have specifically stated in this thread.

However, you have avoided answering the questions I asked in response to your stated scenario.

That's a slick sidestep, but not an honest one.
 

jpeyton

Moderator in SFF, Notebooks, Pre-Built/Barebones
Moderator
Aug 23, 2003
25,375
142
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BAHAHAHAHA

Woke up this morning and the headlines were exactly what I expected, and exactly what the Gaza activists wanted.

Mission accomplished. Thanks Israel!
 

CitizenKain

Diamond Member
Jul 6, 2000
4,480
14
76
Only Israel would claim that in attacking another ship, THEY are the victims. I guess when you get used to killing children, the thought of someone fighting back is a surprise.
 

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
Oct 9, 1999
46,545
9,876
146
BAHAHAHAHA

Woke up this morning and the headlines were exactly what I expected, and exactly what the Gaza activists wanted.

Mission accomplished. Thanks Israel!

Oh, man, this is why so many posters have it in for you.

There is nothing to cheer about regarding this clusterfuck.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
83
91
Only Israel would claim that in attacking another ship, THEY are the victims. I guess when you get used to killing children, the thought of someone fighting back is a surprise.
the ship announced their intent to break the blockade. Israel offered to bring the supplies to Gaza themselves and the activists refused.

I feel like that's damn good cause to give Israel a reason to want to search the ships... if they were truly interested in providing aid to Gaza, why not simply let Israel bring the supplies in themselves?
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
Only Israel would claim that in attacking another ship, THEY are the victims. I guess when you get used to killing children, the thought of someone fighting back is a surprise.

Killing children? So, I guess you hate every country in the world since every country that has been in a war has killed children at one time or another, including the US.
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
0
76

posted this link earlier in the thread, but lets see here....


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE&feature=player_embedded

thermal cameras with a birds-eye-view and ground-eye-view, vs an Al Jazeera reporter. HAHAHAHAA

bias on both sides can be called, sure, but with a clearer picture on the israeli's side, the reporter cant really hold any strong evidence. seems like he is throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks
 
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