israeli navy fires on Gaza aid flotilla

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kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
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So, you do support a massive barrier to separate Gaza from Egypt and Israel. Why is that, when the existence of a barrier of any kind is proscribed by the ICJ?

Being blindered to the reality of what brought about a barrier system in the first place, the ICJ proposes open borders with free flow of people and goods. How smart is that and why should anyone take such an opinion seriously?
The problem here is that you don't compherend the IJC ruling, which leaves your argument worthless.

Again, in the interest of debate, take a shot at proposing a solution to this dilemma - what exactly would you propose that is effectively going to stop Hamas attacks on Israel and Israel, in turn, responding?
I support Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine, but I don't expect you to comprehend it, and hence I've no interest in debating it with you.

Does that mean that you and flavio are figments of PJABBER's imagination?
No, it means your impressions of me and Flavio are just as deranged as PJabber's.

The muslim states control the UN through the non-alignment movement and OIC.
That's quite the crackpot conspiracy theory you have there.
 

Noobtastic

Banned
Jul 9, 2005
3,721
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That's quite the crackpot conspiracy theory you have there.

what?

are you so blind?

like i said - explain to me why oppressive islamic dictatorships sit on the most premier human rights council on earth? why islamic-sponsored genocides, including on-going ones - continue unabated?

why israel is subject to more attention than all other nations combined?

the un is a complete joke and even its leadership admits it.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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Even if you weren't so flagrantly bigoted against Arabs and absurdly biased towards Zionism; I've never seen you demonstrate anything even approaching the mental capacity needed to comprehend the real answers to your questions. So, enjoy your crackpot conspiracy theory, I've no illusions of being able to to dispel you of it.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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The problem here is that you don't compherend the IJC ruling, which leaves your argument worthless.

As Hamas sock puppet #2, with a bullet, (so sad, cousin flavio is still Hamas sock puppet #1!) how would you know?

You refuse to engage in a rational discussion as you much prefer to engage in a knee jerk rejection of all evidence that is contrary to the Hamas position. Both you and flavio have certainly failed abysmally to make your case and have resorted to the pathetic one liners that you find so useful in your playground. Too bad grown ups don't value such meaningless rejoinders.

But, why shouldn't we argue about style when there is so little substance coming from the two of you? :awe:

I support Peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine, but I don't expect you to comprehend it, and hence I've no interest in debating it with you.
Oh my, a UN resolution that does absolutely nothing to address the attendant relocation of half a million plus Israelis that would be required! They don't count!

Oh my, a UN resolution that does nothing to address or abate the ongoing attacks against Israel and Jews! They don't count!

Oh my, a UN resolution that supports a NON-EXISTENT PLO! What mushrooms are these people eating???

From Wiki,

The PLO has no central decision-making or mechanism that enables it to directly control its factions, but they are supposed to follow the PLO charter and Executive Committee decisions. Membership has fluctuated, and some organizations have left the PLO or suspended membership during times of political turbulence, but most often these groups eventually rejoined the organization. Not all PLO activists are members of one of the factions - for example, many PNC delegates are elected as independents.

Present members include:

What a bunch of hoodlums that no one would want in the neighborhood.

Of course, the Arab states have been quite forcefully and violently pushing them into pathetic refugee camps for 60 years rather than accepting them as their own landed citizens. Think of it, NO ARAB STATE will accept the permanent residency of this population. Neither will Turkey or Syria or Iran.

Haven't they heard of how the U.S. has open borders for Mexicans and Central Americans to come in and get a free ride to citizenship after just a year or two of illegal residency? Why can't the Arabs be more like progressives in the U.S.?

The vast majority of so called Palestinians and their children and their grand children have never ever lived in the area that is Israel.

But the UN would like them to supplant the Israelis, a productive and democratic state. Why?

But, but, but, where are your sponsors in this list, the put upon Hamas?

Isn't Hamas PLO? That is what they claim!

The conflict that Hamas is responsible for and that you and fellow sock puppet flavio are inordinately pleased to support through your propagandizing is called Wakseh among Palestinians, meaning humiliation, ruin, and collapse as a result of self-inflicted damage.

If the other ne'er do well Palestinians hate Hamas, or is it the other way round, they must be something else altogether. Not that you would know.

No, it means your impressions of me and Flavio are just as deranged as PJabber's.
Hmm. Derangement, if such it is, is your basing your arguments on faulty presuppositions and ass-umptions and then struggling to defend them ad nauseum without contributing anything substantive to the debate. Or it might be your failure to consider the faults that have been laid out in your arguments by many here. Or it might be in the inadequacy of your references, in which you place the greatest undeserved faith.

I personally believe it is your failure to recognize and acknowledge the true insanity of the Hamas brand of theocratic nihilism. I am flummoxed by both you and cousin flavio's absolute failure to condemn what I would characterize as the unremitting corruption, nay, evil of entities such as Hamas.

Oh, you do equivocate that some (maybe the families of the Fatah Palestinians that were laid down on the ground and shot?) may find issue with Hamas, but you yourself do not as you continue to place all blame on the Israelis for everything that you think might stick from your slap dash posting.

It is too bad, but not unexpected, that you are unwilling to engage in any substantive debate and, like cousin flavio, rely on high school rejoinders that have nothing behind them but your playground say so.

Well, maybe these characteristics are not really derangement, though it comes across like that. Probably they are just reflections of a lack of a moral core or reflections of a lack of rational values. Maybe you and cousin flavio are just another pathetic twin set of critical thinking failure prone post modern education system rejects that are incapable of seeing value in values like democracy and human rights.

Who knows, though all may wonder? Even in the otherwise pleasant circumstances of the waning hours of a lovely summer's eve. :awe:
 
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Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
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A totally respectful anand tech moderator question, motivated by curiosity, as this single thread nears 20,000 reads and 70 pages, with no sign of stopping yet, is this the largest single thread in anand tech P&N history or not?
 

Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
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LL, my WTC 7 thread was locked at 82 pages, 2049 posts, so we are only getting close here.

Anyway, New footage of flotilla attack contradicts Israeli account, smuggled out by an American passenger. I recommend watching the second video first, as it is an interview which plays notable clips of the footage while elaborating on the context.


Israel's account was that they dropped down into a raging mob of people, got attacked, and then were forced to use live ammo.

the Mavi marra' account was that israelis fired live ammo and stun grenades while repelling down.

THIS video, as well as the Israeli videos, do not show israeli commandos taking action which agrees with mavi marra's side, rather like every video out there, show the israeli side.



This discussion on the actual conflict has been over for days already. Israelis landed into a mob waiting to attack.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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That they are, and our US government and mainstream media caught red handed being the unabashed mouthpieces of Israeli victimhood lies which they always have been. In that regard, I also recommend reading this statement from Kenneth O'Keefe, another passenger on the ship. While I hope some will take the time to read the whole thing, I'll quote the last paragraph here, as it really sums up the situation well (emphasis mine):

And lastly I have one more challenge. I challenge any critic of merit, publicly, to debate me on a large stage over our actions that day. I would especially love to debate with any Israeli leader who accuses us of wrongdoing, it would be my tremendous pleasure to face off with you. All I saw in Israel was cowards with guns, so I am ripe to see you in a new context. I want to debate with you on the largest stage possible. Take that as an open challenge and let us see just how brave Israeli leaders are.
 
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Freshgeardude

Diamond Member
Jul 31, 2006
4,506
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That they are, and our US government and mainstream media caught red handed being the unabashed mouthpieces of Israeli victimhood lies which they always have been. In that regard, I also recommend reading this statement from Kenneth O'Keefe, another passenger on the ship. While I hope some will take the time to read the whole thing, I'll quote the last paragraph here, as it really sums up the situation well (emphasis mine):



cowards with guns? LOL that's what you call COMMANDOS, trained killers, to use paintball guns as remorse while they courageously repel down onto a boat with nutcase jihadists ready to die for their "cause"

I would have loved to see those commandos come in with tar-21s and just spray the worthless pieces of shit claiming to be "peaceful activists" because israel had every right to do such once they were being attacked.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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Hehe, I wonder why people want do disgrace themselves by being apologists for a disgraced state of Israel.
 

nageov3t

Lifer
Feb 18, 2004
42,808
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Hehe, I wonder why people want do disgrace themselves by being apologists for a disgraced state of Israel.
makes about as much sense as human rights activists working towards advancing the goal of Iranian hegemony over the Middle East.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
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I don't see a single Israeli firing while approaching the boat, or while repelling down from the chopper. Did I miss something?
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
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Israelis caught red handed starting this fight.

Rather than conjecturing as you do, I watched the film clips.

1. There is no representation of what happened on the top deck when one group of Israelis fast-roped in and another group of Israelis attempted a ship side boarding. The helicopter mounted night vision optics videos that were released with comments by the Israeli military were much better placed topside to capture the flow of events. Those films irrefutably show the lethal force beatings which were inflicted on the initial boarders who were unable to offer any resistance due to the number and ferocity of the attackers.

2. The filmmaker states she was below decks for the duration of the attempted assault. Moreover, she admits to being completely ignorant of even the sounds of paintball guns, explosives or the discharge of live rounds and refuses to characterize any of the sounds recorded on the video. Her commentary itself is only valid as an observation of the flow of events in her immediate proximity and that seems limited to observing the movement and treatment of men injured during the assault.

3. She claims that it was a peaceful group but the film actually shows men with iron rods and gas masks preparing to repel the Israeli boarding. The Israelis were alongside the ship as of 11P according to her statements, the boarding occurred at 4A, five full hours later.

4. By her account the "peaceful" people were preparing to repel the Israeli boarding party by use of non-lethal force. This contradicts all the statements made that this group of 50 to 100 men somehow panicked at the sight of the Israeli boarding party and spontaneously reacted by trying to beat them to death. As she was not present during the attack on the Israelis, her comments as to the subsequent actual flow of events is meaningless.

Note the speed of the chase boats as this ship refused to obey commands to heave to and stop the blockade run. Anyone falling into the sea at that speed, especially from height, had a serious risk of death. The activists that used water hoses and iron clubs to repel the Israeli boarders while the ships were moving at speed were using lethal means.

5. She excuses the life threatening injuries inflicted on the Israelis as being somehow "non-violent" in that they did not "lynch" the two soldiers that they captured. She praises that medical treatment was given to them instead of execution. In reality, the capture of soldiers by a violent enemy is no small matter and the protocol of any military unit that I have been associated with is that a rescue by all means is attempted as soon as possible.

The very fact that this group was able to isolate and capture at least two troops may have been one of the primary reasons for an escalation to the use of lethal force by the Israelis. The other reason that has been recounted is the use of the captured soldiers sidearms against the remainder of the assault force. Both actions fully justify the use of Israeli lethal force in response.

6. Based on the film that is available, both Israeli and this woman's, it is obvious that that there was a contingent of peacenicks and "journalists" that were used as cover for a contingent of 50 to 100 violent "martyrdom action" activists that prepared for five full hours to attack with lethal force (beating with solid steel rods, knifing, use of water hoses to knock boarding Israelis into the sea.)

It is obvious that the Israelis went in with much too soft an expectation and it cost them some severe injuries. It will not be a mistake they will make again.

It is now clear that there was much bragging and encouragement of an active resistance to the anticipated boarding by Israelis enforcing the announced and forewarned blockade. This blustering occurred before the ships left harbor and indicates full premeditation of violent resistance as well as a hope that the violence would result in martyrdom death.

It is now doubly obvious that the five hours that elapsed between the Israelis positioning their boarding parties and their actually commencing a boarding operation in response to the ship not pulling over when instructed to do so were also used by the shipboard "activists" to anticipate and prepare a violent response rather than any form of peaceful compliance.
 
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senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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Rather than conjecturing as you do...

... it is obvious that that there was a contingent of peacenicks and "journalists" that were used as cover for a contingent of 50 to 100 violent "martyrdom action" activists that prepared for five full hours to attack with lethal force (beating with solid steel rods, knifing, use of water hoses to knock boarding Israelis into the sea.)

BWAHAHAH, you got nice sense of humor, bro
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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I don't see a single Israeli firing while approaching the boat, or while repelling down from the chopper. Did I miss something?
Yeah, you are most obviously missing something, trying singing along to this song and you might figure out what.

makes about as much sense as human rights activists working towards advancing the goal of Iranian hegemony over the Middle East.
People who respect human rights don't share your delusions.

Anyway, another interview with another American member of the Freedom Flotilla, retired Army colonel State Department official, Ann Wright.
 
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Noobtastic

Banned
Jul 9, 2005
3,721
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People who respect human rights don't share your delusions.

Anyway, another interview with another American member of the Freedom Flotilla, former retired Army colonel State Department offcal, Ann Wright.

wow, another interview?

holy crap man, i'm convinced!

all that video footage showing the homicidal intent of the "activists" the worthless cargo on ship, the marty tapes and confirmed jihadist link (which you have ignored in spite of being mentioned 9 times) and yet you still cling to victimhood?

the majority of americans don't buy into the pallywood script. another hamas dramedy bites the dust.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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By the way, note that in this video which I linked previously, one can see the break of dawn behind the ship, proving Israel attacked them after they had turned back to sea to avoid confrontation.
 
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