israeli navy fires on Gaza aid flotilla

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PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
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It is a catchy tune, but wasn't the music I was referring to. Granted, I was never expecting you to comprehend the message anyway.

Myself, I tend to avoid exposing myself to stuttering copies of stuff that was done way back when Nosferatu came out, way before I was born. I have too many real images of dead, wounded and mass graves already floating around in my memory. Your nihilistic video references just can't compare.
 
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Of course you do, and that is exactly what the people who rigged the buildings to come down expect you to do.

Sigh. The more weird the story, the better it works. I assume you know about the ufo myths to feed the masses to keep the SR-71 hidden from the Russians. Who would believe people in the USA who claim to have seen an ufo. Make it as extreme as possible and people will believe it and do not look for the boring reality or history. Which in it's own right is just as spectacular, just less special effects and thus boring.

That doesn't even come close to explaining what happened, which is why neither the official "investigations" nor anyone has produced any semblance of experimental confirmation to support such notions, nor will anyone ever do so. Seriously, you might as well be defending theories of psychic spoon bending for all the demonstration of reproducibility you ever could have to support your beliefs.

Sigh.
I am not an expert but i have always asked my self this question :
How much anti sway techniques were used and what kind. And could that have been the reason for weakening in intense heat. Was the proper anti fire material used ? Or where materials used that where not in spec ?
And was all the steel which was from various different suppliers up to par ?

I know about all the stories about molten metal and thermite.
I was not aware that suddenly all people around the site where metallurgic experts who know what kind of material they are dealing with just by looking at it. I have seen pictures of clean cut bars of steel. However, it was not clear of these pictures where taking during the clean up or moments after the collapse. From the pictures i have seen it is clearly from during clean up while clean workers are cutting through metal bars with their specialist tools.

I do not like Occam's razor. But i feel your experts did use it. Forgetting aging of materials. Forgetting the effects of later in time performed modifications.
Forgetting the enormous amount of stress when a fully loaded boeing comes crashing in. Forgetting about errors of greed, use of out of spec materials, use of materials that do not adhere to build codes. How about non stop stress from moving in the wind every day for 30 years. Hair fractures, structural weaknesses... It is a lawsuit crazy country, you know.


I am most curious about these devices :

Viscoelastic (VE) dampers are dependent on both relative velocity and displacement to dissipate energy. VE damping system in Twin Towers is a double-layer shear damper using a 3M material, which is a rubber derivative, glued to steel plate and angle irons. This material will carry some load (which is temperature-dependent and would be less than the two-bolt connection as shown) as it displaces. As installed it has several functions:
1. It develops continuity moment at the end of joist girder, that is, the joist girders will behave as partial continuous members under Dead and Live load. It is partially restrained under Wind load.
2. It restrained the lower chord of the joist girder (in the direction perpendicular to the plane of the joist). Therefore it stabilizes the concrete diaphragm. Note that for a 4-inch thick concrete slab spanning 60 feet, it would buckle if there were no joist girder. It also transfers compression load through bottom chord.
3. Joist girder-column connection is a moment connection.
4. It reduces the energy to be absorbed by the joist girder and the columns under Wind load.

As the temperature rises, 3M materials would loose its load carrying capacity, i.e. its energy-dissipating capacity. This is equivalent as loosing the two-bolt connection because it will act as though there is gaps between the steel plate and the angle irons. As a result, several things would occur:
1. The joist girder is no longer a continuous member. Therefore, even under Dead and Live load, its top chord would rotate more relatively to its supporting column.
2. All the compression or tension force to the diaphragm would go through the top chords only.
3. More rotation between the top chord and its respective column under Wind load.
4. No more lateral restraint for the bottom chord and the joist girder could buckle laterally and the slab diaphragm would follow.

And the result is a tremendous demand on the connection between the top chord and its supporting column.
Let be clear that the VE damping system is a novelty design. First of its kind in the World. First of its kind implemented in a skyscraper. The reason I still think it is a design flaw is that:
In the 60’s and beginning 70’s there are many literatures about plastic design in steel including ASCE manual No 41. From J Heyman to Beedle, they all emphasize the importance of collapse mechanism in Limit Analysis. And in dealing with inelastic behavior such as VE damping system is engaging in Limit Analysis whether you want it or not because you have to think what will happen beyond the device limit.

http://www.designcommunity.com/discussion/7551.html

EDIT :

Another link :

http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/ser...0004001222000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes&ref=no

In this paper, the features of energy-absorbing capacities of the viscoelastic damper and its effect on the structure during earthquakes are investigated. To clarify the behavior of the structure with added viscoelastic dampers, a new analytical model for the viscoelastic damper taking into consideration the earthquakelike loading and the temperature effect, in good agreement with experimental results, and an advanced finite element formulation for the viscoelastic damper are developed. The proposed method could be implemented easily in the finite element program. In this study the behavior of a 10-story building equipped with viscoelastic dampers is examined while it is subjected to earthquake ground motions. Both analytical and experimental results show that the energy-absorbing capacity of the viscoelastic damper decreases with increasing the ambient temperature. Numerical examples show that the responses, including displacements and stresses, of the high-rise building to earthquake loadings are significantly reduced while viscoelastic dampers are added to it.

EDIT: From how stuff works even :

http://science.howstuffworks.com/wtc2.htm

n the end, they designed the towers so they could sway about 3 feet in either direction. To minimize the sway sensation, they installed about 10,000 visco-elastic dampers between support columns and floor trusses throughout the building. The special visco-elastic material in these dampers could move somewhat, but it would snap back to its original shape. In other words, it could give a little and then return to its initial position, absorbing much of the shock of the building's swaying motion.

The reason why i am so interested is how these systems would respond in a stress situation as during the impact, the fires and later on the collapse.
 
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kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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Myself, I tend to avoid exposing myself to stuttering copies of stuff that was done way back when Nosferatu came out, way before I was born. I have too many real images of dead, wounded and mass graves already floating around in my memory. Your nihilistic video references just can't compare.
While the imagery in the video can reasonably be described as nihilistic, that isn't what I was referring to either.

Back at you.
 

cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
86
That doesn't even come close to explaining what happened, which is why neither the official "investigations" nor anyone has produced any semblance of experimental confirmation to support such notions, nor will anyone ever do so. Seriously, you might as well be defending theories of psychic spoon bending for all the demonstration of reproducibility you ever could have to support your beliefs.

You're a truther. End of story.

Why are the rest of you wasting your time with this nut job? He will *never* believe a word you write, nor will any sane person reading this thread believe a word he writes.
 

PJABBER

Diamond Member
Feb 8, 2001
4,822
0
0
You're a truther. End of story.

Why are the rest of you wasting your time with this nut job? He will *never* believe a word you write, nor will any sane person reading this thread believe a word he writes.
LOL! QFT. It is all just a bit of amusing time wasting
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Let me make one comment about the last two or three pages of this thread, which have amounted to, IMHO, I furious assault by various pro Israeli fan clubbers to totally justify the Israeli position on what amounts to a USA dominated forum. Over matched against that on this forum are those few voices within the USA wilderness screaming bullshit. Why should I be surprised that I am on the losing popular side of that argument in a USA pro-Israeli forum of the great unwashed mean? All us voices of anti-Israeli wisdom are going is casting unwanted pearls of wisdom before self convinced swine. The surest way to get nowhere fast.

But there are two other far more important jokers in the deck, not only the USA POTUS who sets policy and the far more important far larger international community that the USA is only 5% a part of.

And when that 95% international community is really PO'd about Israel, you damn pro Israeli fan clubbers should realize, you are better off realizing that you should be peeing your own pants rather than spouting more bullshit.
 
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You're a truther. End of story.

Why are the rest of you wasting your time with this nut job? He will *never* believe a word you write, nor will any sane person reading this thread believe a word he writes.

I have tried to let him see beyond his eyes. But the ufo metaphor i presented (which is true, patriotism is enough to protect the country and weird magical ufo stories are effective means for those less patriotic individuals by letting them be occupied with their own imagination and anger( collective behaviour)) did not get true. I was hoping he would think in smaller more realistic conspiracy circles that can actually happen. At least, the way he thinks, grey blooded NSA agents will not come for him
 

Sclamoz

Guest
Sep 9, 2009
975
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Let me make one comment about the last two or three pages of this thread, which have amounted to, IMHO, I furious assault by various pro Israeli fan clubbers to totally justify the Israeli position on what amounts to a USA dominated forum. Over matched against that on this forum are those few voices within the USA wilderness screaming bullshit. Why should I be surprised that I am on the losing popular side of that argument in a USA pro-Israeli forum of the great unwashed mean? All us voices of anti-Israeli wisdom are going is casting unwanted pearls of wisdom before self convinced swine. The surest way to get nowhere fast.

But there are two other far more important jokers in the deck, not only the USA POTUS who sets policy and the far more important far larger international community that the USA is only 5% a part of.

And when that 95% international community is really PO'd about Israel, you damn pro Israeli fan clubbers should realize, you are better off realizing that you should be peeing your own pants rather than spouting more bullshit.

Yes because getting to the truth of what happened isn't important, its emotional reaction and opinion of Israel that's important!

Guess what? I don't give a flying fuck about Israel. I would be arguing the same stance if this was the US blockading coffee beans from Canada and US Navy Seals shot a bunch of Brits who were trying to run the blockade so Canada could get their Tim Horton's fix. The fact Israel is involved doesn't change anything, except to people like you and HIV who have this weird obsession.
 

bfdd

Lifer
Feb 3, 2007
13,312
1
0
Let me make one comment about the last two or three pages of this thread, which have amounted to, IMHO, I furious assault by various pro Israeli fan clubbers to totally justify the Israeli position on what amounts to a USA dominated forum. Over matched against that on this forum are those few voices within the USA wilderness screaming bullshit. Why should I be surprised that I am on the losing popular side of that argument in a USA pro-Israeli forum of the great unwashed mean? All us voices of anti-Israeli wisdom are going is casting unwanted pearls of wisdom before self convinced swine. The surest way to get nowhere fast.

But there are two other far more important jokers in the deck, not only the USA POTUS who sets policy and the far more important far larger international community that the USA is only 5% a part of.

And when that 95% international community is really PO'd about Israel, you damn pro Israeli fan clubbers should realize, you are better off realizing that you should be peeing your own pants rather than spouting more bullshit.
Says the guy who thinks suicide bombers are civilized.
 
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..utterly fails to address the physics of how the buildings came down, because you are unwilling to see beyond your own eyes and hence turn to psychological projection.

I give you the benefit of the doubt.
I have seen some of the video's demonstrating the collapse. But these where simplified models saturated with errors.

Can you provide me with links to video footage or information why the buildings
where falling faster then what should be possible or has occurred ?

Because the steel itself may not melt, but all those visco dampeners connecting the trusts supporting the concrete slabs with the inner and outer steel structures where made of material that can burn quickly and has a limited strength. Those visco dampeners would not need high temperatures to loose their strength. When those dampeners are no longer present, the outer structure and the inner structure become 2 separate structures that have to hold up by their own while being damaged. For as far as i know (maybe i am wrong) the whole strength of the WTC 1 and 2 where based on the outer and inner structure supporting each other while being connected through trusses that where supporting to the concrete slabs and where connected to the inner and out structure through the use of visco dampeners to reduce the sway of the building. If the number 10.000 is correct, this means that around 100 of these dampeners where used for each floor (concrete slab). In effect all floors where hold up by this artifical rubber that does not like extreme shocks or high temperatures. This is afcourse nothing to blame on these dampeners, they where used to increase the comfort by reducing sway which is caused by wind. During that day, the wind kept on pushing those buildings to you know. Combine that with steel columns that buckle. The collapse from an impact of an object with a weight of around 300.000 lb (140.000 kg)flying at 400 mph and a hot fire and increased stress because of partial collapse of the buildings is not that strange.

This is what i know. Now i would really be interested in your information.


notice i do not ever mention wtc 7 ?
 
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All i see are people who wanted 15 minutes of fame.

If you want an objective experiment. Build a smaller version of WTC 1 or 2 to the detail and do the same torture to it. I see normal buildings compared to the WTC while have been totally build in a different way. Not a correct comparison by an architect. Richard Gage makes strange comparisons for an architect. An architect would have mentioned how the building was set up and what materials would have been used. A step by step reconstruction of the construction of the WTC 1 and 2 is what i am missing. He only focuses on the steel. I was not aware that the WTC was 100% steel. And made of solid steel. I would never hire him as an architect for my house. He is a fake.

About WTC 7 many stories are present.


EDIT:

I have a few remarks about WTC 7. Was it not build as a larger structure then was originally planned ? With all kinds of structures to balance the load to the center ? WTC 7 was build similar as WTC 1 and 2 with the difference it was build on top of a fundament with a resulting shape of the load baring structure of the building like a mushroom. After the collapse it was very visible on pictures that the middle structure was still standing. Under that structure was the power station.

I wonder what happened to this power station. Because i have seen the effects of an exploding transformer. It sure seems like a bomb exploding and sounds like one too.

For got to mention about dust explosions. When you have a lot of oxygen and very fine particles material, an proper ignition can be enough for a dust explosion. It will look similar as has been seen with the WTC events. I see nothing special.

http://www.osha.gov/dts/shib/shib073105.html

ANOTHER EDIT:
Thermite does not run for weeks. It is a very violent reaction that burns fast. In the absence of oxygen or not enough oxygen it will stop. Besides, any reactive material can be used for a thermite reaction which is nothing more then a reduction of oxygen . The ignition point of thermite is lower then the maximum temperature reached when thermite is burning.
(This i have copied from literature, because i am not an expert.)
 
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You see what you want to see, and spout nonsense to defend it.

I feel like the mirror you are talking to while seeing your own reflection.

The problem here again is that these people assume there is nothing else found in a 110 story building but steel. No cables. No shafts. No pipes. No equipment. Only steel. Now this makes me want to laugh so loud my neighbours will get up set.

The error your expert Richard Gage makes is that he assumes that the entire event was static. That there was only a fire around those inner columns. And that is where he is wrong. The architects of the building do not want lawsuits so afcourse they will never ever admit that it is still possible that the building might have collapsed when it is tortured enough.

The thermite expert is much as an expert i am. Not ! Mr Jones wanted so much his muon fusion at room temperature. It never happened because of a flawed fundament. Now he has a new hobby for the last decade.

For example 1.17 : The collapse of the roof. I see a decrease in volume happening like a piston so afcourse the smoke is expelled from the inside of the building. Every thing that was happening can be explained with simple physics from children school.

EDIT: For the really controlled demolition buildings (20 levels)an enormous amount of charges where needed. For the WTC towers (110 levels each) only 5 where needed ( 5 exhaustions of phumes where shown by Richard Gage). You do understand that sounds a bit silly ? 5 puffs of smoke...

1:20 Is hilarious. When i blow air through a small hole in a cardboard, an increase in air pressure is right behind it. Not around it filling the entire room.

ANOTHER EDIT :

How about research into concrete.
Because most of the materials found in the dust (which was the concrete) can be found in the raw materials as well. The raw materials concrete is made off.
Sulfur can be found in concrete to improve strength.
Everything that is found for the thermite story can be found in the raw materials of concrete.

http://www.lmcc.com/concrete_news/0507/life_of_a_cement_grain.asp
 
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kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
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Every thing that was happening can be explained with simple physics from children school.
That much is true, but you still get it wrong. Granted, most school children understand the difference between "where" and "were", while you constantly use the former in place of the latter.
 
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That much is true, but you still get it wrong. Granted, most school children understand the difference between "where" and "were", while you constantly use the former in place of the latter.

Nice, i can debunk everything Richard Gage and his companions come up with and that from my armchair and a few minutes of looking through books and the web while i am making a lovely dinner. You are left with confronting me with typing errors. I had you in higher regard for a moment. Too bad, so sad. ^_^

EDIT:
And talking of free falling, if there where really explosions to speed up the process of demolition, then why is it that an explosion which is an expanding force in all directions is only pushing downwards while not obstructing everything around it and above it ? From the controlled demolition examples i have watched from other sites, it can be clearly seen that explosion take place. That is not the case here. Richard Gage story can only happen with implosions happening where the force is downwards sucking in the upper floors and from that same implosion an explosion downwards pushing down while not having a reaction force. That is true science fiction.

ANOTHER EDIT:
A random website about concrete fabrication.

http://www.cement.org/basics/concretebasics_history.asp

Portland cement, the fundamental ingredient in concrete, is a calcium silicate cement made with a combination of calcium, silicon, aluminum, and iron. Producing a cement that meets specific chemical and physical specifications requires careful control of the manufacturing process. The first step in the portland cement manufacturing process is obtaining raw materials. Generally, raw materials consisting of combinations of limestone, shells or chalk, and shale, clay, sand, or iron ore are mined from a quarry near the plant. At the quarry, the raw materials are reduced by primary and secondary crushers. Stone is first reduced to 5-inch size (125-mm), then to 3/4-inch(19 mm). Once the raw materials arrive at the cement plant, the materials are proportioned to create a cement with a specific chemical composition. Two different methods, dry and wet, are used to manufacture portland cement. In the dry process, dry raw materials are proportioned, ground to a powder, blended together and fed to the kiln in a dry state. In the wet process, a slurry is formed by adding water to the properly proportioned raw materials. The grinding and blending operations are then completed with the materials in slurry form. After blending, the mixture of raw materials is fed into the upper end of a tilted rotating, cylindrical kiln. The mixture passes through the kiln at a rate controlled by the slope and rotational speed of the kiln. Burning fuel consisting of powdered coal or natural gas is forced into the lower end of the kiln. Inside the kiln, raw materials reach temperatures of 2600 degrees F to 3000 degrees F (1430 degrees C to 1650 degrees C). At 2700 degrees F (1480 degrees C), a series of chemical reactions cause the materials to fuse and create cement clinker-grayish-black pellets, often the size of marbles. Clinker is discharged red-hot from the lower end of the kiln and transferred to various types of coolers to lower the clinker to handling temperatures. Cooled clinker is combined with gypsum and ground into a fine gray powder. The clinker is ground so fine that nearly all of it passes through a No. 200 mesh (75 micron) sieve. This fine gray powder is portland cement.

http://cementamericas.com/mag/cement_cement_concrete_environment/
 
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cubby1223

Lifer
May 24, 2004
13,518
42
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That much is true, but you still get it wrong. Granted, most school children understand the difference between "where" and "were", while you constantly use the former in place of the latter.

Ah, grammar attacks, the last resort of someone who has failed in an online argument
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Rather, he can't be expected to understand physics when he demonstrates such flagrant ignorance of basic grammar, and particularly when he continues making the same flagrant grammatical mistake even after having it pointed out to him.
 
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palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
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Can we please get back to laughing at Kyle and Flavio for their insatiable lust for Hamas love, rather than this lunatic-fringe truther nonsense?

Thanks ahead of time...
 
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