israeli navy fires on Gaza aid flotilla

[Harabec]

I have two conflicting views on this.

One is that we should have let them reach Gaza completely untouched. Result would be some page-20 headlines not one of you will give a shit about. This is where I lean to.

Another is going with full force, live fire on anyone who even blinks in an offensive manner. Bad PR, yes, no different than it is now. Objective complete, no one gives a shit anyway other than muslim protesters who I doubt know what they're protesting about.

I don't personally like half-assed attempts, all or nothing for me.

What should we have done? who knows...too late for that. Armchair generals are a dime a dozen and worth just as much.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

You should watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltCB4

Uh, the first video clearly shows the IDF being attacked. The second is for the most part just a news report on the subject. You have clear video of the IDF being attacked vs the Al Jazeera journalist making their usual claims.

 

[Lemon law]

Maybe another thing to point out is the fact that this the eighth such freedom flotilla but the first one to end up as a violent incident. Its my understanding, that in the other seven, Israel waited until the flotilla came within Israeli international waters before boarding and diverting the ships to Israeli ports. And in five such incidents, after inspection of the cargo, Israel trucked the aid to its Gaza intended destination.

But in Israel departing from that tried and true script created the danger that hotheads would resort to violence after an semi-illegal boarding, and as violence often does, it spins rapidly out of control.

 

[SamurAchzar]

You should watch:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pn-l_JltCB4

Any section of that rather stale 9 minute recording especially worthy of attention?

 

[Freshgeardude]

I have two conflicting views on this.

One is that we should have let them reach Gaza completely untouched. Result would be some page-20 headlines not one of you will give a shit about. This is where I lean to.

Another is going with full force, live fire on anyone who even blinks in an offensive manner. Bad PR, yes, no different than it is now. Objective complete, no one gives a shit anyway other than muslim protesters who I doubt know what they're protesting about.

I don't personally like half-assed attempts, all or nothing for me.

What should we have done? who knows...too late for that. Armchair generals are a dime a dozen and worth just as much.

except under international law, the israelis were allowed to do what they did and even entered with the intent to not use live fire. 5 out of 6 ships complied peacefully. 1 of the ships did not and attacked the israeli commandos as they landed, with metal rods, knives, stun grenades, and apparently 2 pistols.

 

[nageov3t]

I have two conflicting views on this.

One is that we should have let them reach Gaza completely untouched. Result would be some page-20 headlines not one of you will give a shit about. This is where I lean to.

what if the ship was hiding weapons?

 

[Freshgeardude]

Maybe another thing to point out is the fact that this the eighth such freedom flotilla but the first one to end up as a violent incident. Its my understanding, that in the other seven, Israel waited until the flotilla came within Israeli international waters before boarding and diverting the ships to Israeli ports. And in five such incidents, after inspection of the cargo, Israel trucked the aid to its Gaza intended destination.

this was a peaceful takeover on 5/6 ships last i checked. Israel has already offered to transfer the supplies for gaza. that will still probably happen.

But in Israel departing from that tried and true script created the danger that hotheads would resort to violence after an semi-illegal boarding, and as violence often does, it spins rapidly out of control.

yet again LL comes in spewing bullshit.

the boarding was completely LEGAL under international law. you simply want to deny israel is right in this, which isnt uncommon for you since you dont care if hamas lobs rockets into civilian territory.

 

[SamurAchzar]

I have two conflicting views on this.

One is that we should have let them reach Gaza completely untouched. Result would be some page-20 headlines not one of you will give a shit about. This is where I lean to.

Another is going with full force, live fire on anyone who even blinks in an offensive manner. Bad PR, yes, no different than it is now. Objective complete, no one gives a shit anyway other than muslim protesters who I doubt know what they're protesting about.

I don't personally like half-assed attempts, all or nothing for me.

What should we have done? who knows...too late for that. Armchair generals are a dime a dozen and worth just as much.

I originally shared your thoughts, but now, and with the footage coming from IDF, I actually don't think it's this bad of PR. The footage mostly shows Israeli troops being assaulted, clearly in a situation warranting self-defense. So much for "peaceful" support of the Palestinians, the people who are responsible are the same anti-social G8 protesters and professional hooligans. No way any moderates around the world are going to side with them, after they see the footage and hear expert opinion on the legality of the raid.

 

[linkgoron]

Maybe another thing to point out is the fact that this the eighth such freedom flotilla but the first one to end up as a violent incident. Its my understanding, that in the other seven, Israel waited until the flotilla came within Israeli international waters before boarding and diverting the ships to Israeli ports. And in five such incidents, after inspection of the cargo, Israel trucked the aid to its Gaza intended destination.

But in Israel departing from that tried and true script created the danger that hotheads would resort to violence after an semi-illegal boarding, and as violence often does, it spins rapidly out of control.

semi-illegal? Have you not read the sections in international law that clearly state that this was legal? you lost that point.

Anyway, you state yourself that in incidents before this one Israel passed on the humanitarian aid after inspecting it. Why didn't they just give Israel the aid? If all they wanted was to pass it on, they should have come peacefully.

So you blame Israel instead of the "hotheads"? Israel was not the one to resort to violence first (as your post indicated), how are they at fault here?

 

[linkgoron]

I originally shared your thoughts, but now, and with the footage coming from IDF, I actually don't think it's this bad of PR. The footage mostly shows Israeli troops being assaulted, clearly in a situation warranting self-defense. So much for "peaceful" support of the Palestinians, the people who are responsible are the same anti-social G8 protesters and professional hooligans. No way any moderates around the world are going to side with them, after they see the footage and hear expert opinion on the legality of the raid.

Israel has already lost the PR war. No matter how right they are.

 

[KMFJD]

Israel has already lost the PR war. No matter how right they are.

They need to hire some of the pallywood producers, their stuff is great

 

[jpeyton]

I originally shared your thoughts, but now, and with the footage coming from IDF, I actually don't think it's this bad of PR.

Yeah this is great PR......

......for the Palestinians.

Let's think about this for a second. There were 8 aid flotillas before this one, none of which got more than an inch of coverage on page 20 of the newspaper. I don't think most people even knew about the aid flotillas or the blockade before today.

Thanks to Israel's extremely intelligent and calculated move of boarding and assaulting the aid flotilla in international waters, the aid flotilla and the blockade of Gaza are now in the headlines worldwide, and all those headlines are not favorable at all to Israel's side of the case.

Bravo.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100531/wl_time/08599199299100

Israel faces a wave of international condemnation and growing pressure to end its blockade on Gaza after 15 activists - all of them apparently Turkish - were killed and more than 30 injured after Israeli commandos boarded a ship attempting to carry banned supplies to the Hamas-controlled enclave.

Israel's explanations for the pre-dawn assault failed to head off a growing diplomatic incident. Turkey accused Israel of "targeting innocent civilians", quickly withdrew its ambassador to Israel and called for an emergency United Nations security council meeting. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan cut short his trip to Latin America to return to Ankara. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, meanwhile, cancelled his upcoming White House visit in order to deal with the situation.

The EU and UN both called for an end to Israel's blockade on Gaza

Baroness Ashton, the EU foreign policy chief, demanded a "full inquiry" into the incident and called for "an immediate, sustained and unconditional opening of the crossing for the flow of humanitarian aid, commercial goods and persons to and from Gaza."

 

[Oric]

The reason why international community is trying to get past the blockade

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8654337.stm

The Israeli authorities also confirm the existence of four documents related to how the blockade works: how they process requests for imports into Gaza, how they monitor the shortages within Gaza, their approved list of what is allowed in, and a document entitled "Food Consumption in the Gaza Strip - Red Lines" which sets out the minimum calorie intake needed by Gaza's million and a half inhabitants, according to their age and sex.

The lack of clarity causes immense frustration not just among Gazans, but among aid groups, diplomats, and the United Nations - which has described Israel's blockade as "collective punishment"

The problem, they say, is not just the shortages themselves, but the unpredictability and changing nature of what is permitted for import.

Israeli officials have said, in the past, that they are concerned that building materials in particular could be misappropriated by Hamas for military ends.

But some Israeli commentators - even those who advocate a tough stance against Hamas - say that the strategy behind the much wider blockade is ill-defined, and harmful to Israel's international standing.

The BBC has received information from reliable sources that there are currently 81 items that are approved for import - from kidney beans to tinned meat - and as of March, shoes.

Among the large range of goods currently forbidden are jam, chocolate, wood for furniture, fruit juice, textiles, and plastic toys.

 

[Oric]

Also some more reading :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

 

[nageov3t]

maybe if they didn't elect terrorists into office and fire rockets at Israel, the blockade wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Jaskalas]

so, here is a video from the israeli's showing first hand birds eye view of the incident.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bU12KW-XyZE&feature=player_embedded

cant make that stuff up.

so who on here actually tried to claim israel started the violence?

Our resident Islamic terrorist sympathizers.

 

[Oric]

Israel could have should have stopped those ships without use of lethal force. It does not take a country such as Israel to know how to stop these ships from entering no-entrance zone. But to attack with lethal force in international waters means only thing : "I am the bully, I don't care for rest of the world, I can do whatever I wish to do"

Yes, Israel you can do whatever you want as long as you have the strength. I don't think this can be an eternally sustainable strategy

 

[jpeyton]

This editorial nails it perfectly, from Spiegel (Germany):

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,697834,00.html

Israel made a horribly calculated move, giving their pro-Palestinian opposition a tidal wave of bad PR to use against them.

 

[nageov3t]

Israel could have should have stopped those ships without use of lethal force. It does not take a country such as Israel to know how to stop these ships from entering no-entrance zone. But to attack with lethal force in international waters means only thing : "I am the bully, I don't care for rest of the world, I can do whatever I wish to do"

Yes, Israel you can do whatever you want as long as you have the strength. I don't think this can be an eternally sustainable strategy

what would you suspect would be the outcome of opening fire on an armed soldier?

 

[Freshgeardude]

Israel could have should have stopped those ships without use of lethal force. It does not take a country such as Israel to know how to stop these ships from entering no-entrance zone. But to attack with lethal force in international waters means only thing : "I am the bully, I don't care for rest of the world, I can do whatever I wish to do"

Yes, Israel you can do whatever you want as long as you have the strength. I don't think this can be an eternally sustainable strategy

Israeli commandos protected themselves after being attack by "peace activists" on one of 6 ships. five of the 6 ships peacefully surrendered.

under international law, israel was allowed to do this mission.

404 blame on israel not found

 

[Oric]

what would you suspect would be the outcome of opening fire on an armed soldier?

What is an armed soldier doing on a ship with a white flag on international waters ? You assume as proposed by the Israeli side, that everything started after the soldiers were attacked, there was live coverage from these ships, I guess not shown on US channels at the start moment of the attack. (The sattelite was jammed later) You could clearly hear gunshots from the Israeli side as everyone in the boats were taking cover. Anyway, power needs responsibility, Israel never takes the responsibility but likes the power. I guess that is not something to be proud of.

 

[jpeyton]

404 blame on israel not found

Exactly, nobody is blaming Israel for this.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/05/31/israel.gaza.raid.reaction/

Thanks Israel!

 

[Sclamoz]

http://idfspokesperson.com/2010/05/...assengers-attacking-idf-soldiers-31-may-2010/

The video on this page is from an Israeli boat. You can see the first Israelis to land were armed with paintball guns.

 

[nageov3t]

What is an armed soldier doing on a ship with a white flag on international waters ? You assume as proposed by the Israeli side, that everything started after the soldiers were attacked, there was live coverage from these ships, I guess not shown on US channels at the start moment of the attack. (The sattelite was jammed later) You could clearly hear gunshots from the Israeli side as everyone in the boats were taking cover. Anyway, power needs responsibility, Israel never takes the responsibility but likes the power. I guess that is not something to be proud of.

Israel is within its rights to search ships that have announced intentions to break its blockade... for all we know, maybe they were planning on making sure that they weren't smuggling in weapons or other blocked items before sending them on their way.

had the Turks not opened fire on the Israelis, their deaths could have been avoided.

 

[Red Dawn]

http://idfspokesperson.com/2010/05/...assengers-attacking-idf-soldiers-31-may-2010/

The video on this page is from an Israeli boat. You can see the first Israelis to land were armed with paintball guns.

Well never bring a paintball gun to a knife fight