Israeli terrorist attack kills 8 Canadians

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: lozina
Israel is now engaging in the same terrorism that they claim to be fighting against. Someone explain the difference between what Israel is doing to the civilians and civilian infrastructure of Lebanon to what a terrorist would do .... *crickets*

Actually there is one difference: Israeli officials continue to go on the air and make statements like "we are going after the people responsible" and "we are only trying to destroy Hezbollah" and"doing everything we can to avoid civilian casualties" while the "terrorists" don't try to make such claims. But please, look at Israel's actions- what they are targetting and who is getting killed. Then you see it would be just as ridiculous as if Osama Bin Laden publically said he wasn't trying to target civilians. Would that make everything better with 9/11?

Actions > Words.

It's called a war. I would imagine that at this stage, some of it would be pretty similar on both sides. However, I'm guessing that the Israeli military isn't specifically targetting civilian people, but it is obviously targetting national infrastructure that civilians use. In addition, civilians will die in some of the warfare. Isn't it crazy that countries target important strategic points and resources during a war?!

What do you actually expect to happen during a war like this? Do you expect both sides to fight with nerf guns?

 

[BBond]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: BBond
I'd really like to see some of you people enjoying your vacation wherever then have a neighboring country with vastly superior military power start bombing YOU after they cut off every means of escape -- airports, rail, roads, ports -- I'd love to hear your take on the ethics of their actions if YOU were the victims.

I'd be running into the freaking hills if I had to instead of staying in the same area that is controlled by Hezbollah. Is every single road shut down? Or just the major highways?

In addition, I try not to spend my vacations in hell holes that I know are controlled by a terrorist organization that attacked another country.

Bierut is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Sidon is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. The road to Damascus is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Bierut Airport is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Lebanon's ports are NOT controlled by Hezbollah.

Haven't you been watching or reading the NEWS??? Israel is attacking major civilian population centers to get to Hezbollah. IIRC, the Geneva Conventions forbid nations from attacking civilian population centers.

It looks like the Israelis learned very well from their Nazi oppressors.

Some World Response:Switzerland, Amnesty, Physicians Condemn Israeli War Crimes

Freda Guttman-IMEMC - Wednesday, 05 July 2006, 11:40

Switzerland said Monday that Israel has been violating international law in its Gaza offensive by heavy destruction and endangering civilians in acts of collective punishment that are banned under the Geneva conventions on the conduct of warfare



"There is no doubt that has not taken the precautions required of it in international law to protect the civilian population and infrastructure," it said. It added that 's destruction last week of the main Gaza electricity power station and its attack on the office of the Palestinian prime minister was unjustified. It also urged to free Hamas legislators, including eight ministers who have been seized.



The 1949 Conventions established in 1949 are regarded as the cornerstone of international law on the obligations of warring and of occupying powers. Both the principle of proportionality and the ban on collective punishment are found in the Fourth Geneva Convention, which spells out the obligations of occupying powers toward the civilian population under their control.



, as the depository of the conventions, has a responsibility to call meetings if it finds general problems with the implementation of the treaty, but it does not have any special powers to interpret the document. There was no indication from the Swiss government that they were planning to implement a meeting.



Physicians for Human Rights-Israel and Amnesty International, also cited the deliberate attacks by Israeli forces against civilian property and infrastructure in the Gaza Strip as being in violation of international humanitarian law and constitute war crimes.


Amnesty urged to take urgent measures to remedy the long-term damage it has caused and immediately restore the supply -- at its own cost -- of electricity and water to Gazans. "As the occupying power, is bound under international law to protect and safeguard the basic human rights of the Palestinian population."

As well, Amnesty International reminded the international community, of its obligation under the Geneva Conventions to act. The deliberate destruction of the Gaza Strip?s only electricity power station, water networks, bridges, roads and other infrastructure is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and has major and long-term humanitarian consequences for the 1.5 million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip. According to the Fourth Geneva Convention, "collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited" (article 33) as is the destruction of private or public property, "except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations" (Article 53). The Convention requires all states party to it to search for and ensure the prosecution of perpetrators of the war crime of "causing extensive destruction ... not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly". "Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects" is also a war crime under Article 8 (b) (ii) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

Israel is using the same tactics is Lebanon that they used in Gaza. Hitler would be proud of his students.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: BBond
Bierut is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Sidon is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. The road to Damascus is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Bierut Airport is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Lebanon's ports are NOT controlled by Hezbollah.

Are you saying that there is no Hezbollah presence in these areas that are targetted? Anyways, if Lebanon allowed Hezbollah to fester in the country and gain significant power and made no steps to reign them in, then they should expect the consequences.

I'm not sure if Israel is actively targetting civilians at all.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: lozina
Israel is now engaging in the same terrorism that they claim to be fighting against. Someone explain the difference between what Israel is doing to the civilians and civilian infrastructure of Lebanon to what a terrorist would do .... *crickets*

Actually there is one difference: Israeli officials continue to go on the air and make statements like "we are going after the people responsible" and "we are only trying to destroy Hezbollah" and"doing everything we can to avoid civilian casualties" while the "terrorists" don't try to make such claims. But please, look at Israel's actions- what they are targetting and who is getting killed. Then you see it would be just as ridiculous as if Osama Bin Laden publically said he wasn't trying to target civilians. Would that make everything better with 9/11?

Actions > Words.

It's called a war. I would imagine that at this stage, some of it would be pretty similar on both sides. However, I'm guessing that the Israeli military isn't specifically targetting civilian people, but it is obviously targetting national infrastructure that civilians use. In addition, civilians will die in some of the warfare. Isn't it crazy that countries target important strategic points and resources during a war?!

What do you actually expect to happen during a war like this? Do you expect both sides to fight with nerf guns?

This isn't a war, it's a massacre. A war is fought between two armies belonging to different states. Israel is just targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure. They have absolutely no moral ground anymore. They have crossed every line imaginable.

Also, Osama Bin Laden declared "war" on America long before he initiated the attack on 9/11. So using your stupid crooked logic I guess that justifies the murdering of innocent civilians when the towers were hit, since "It's called a war". I hope you get hit with a rocket.

 

[RabidMongoose]

Originally posted by: lozina
This isn't a war, it's a massacre. A war is fought between two armies belonging to different states. Israel is just targetting civilians and civilian infrastructure. They have absolutely no moral ground anymore. They have crossed every line imaginable.

It's not anywhere near a massacre. Israel is targetting the country's infrastructure as they are responsible for what has really happened. However, they should not be targetting the civilian population.

Also, Osama Bin Laden declared "war" on America long before he initiated the attack on 9/11. So using your stupid crooked logic I guess that justifies the murdering of innocent civilians when the towers were hit, since "It's called a war".

If the US did something to warrant an all out war, then it would be justified to them, but you're talking about specifically targetting civilians. Are the Israelis specifically targetting civilians? I don't think so. However, I would expect some civilian deaths in the war.

I hope you get hit with a rocket.

You must be a very emotional person if you wish death upon other anonymous people on the Internet. That is actually hilarious.

I hope that you get banned for what you just said.

 

[linkgoron]

Originally posted by: BBond

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: BBond
I'd really like to see some of you people enjoying your vacation wherever then have a neighboring country with vastly superior military power start bombing YOU after they cut off every means of escape -- airports, rail, roads, ports -- I'd love to hear your take on the ethics of their actions if YOU were the victims.

I'd be running into the freaking hills if I had to instead of staying in the same area that is controlled by Hezbollah. Is every single road shut down? Or just the major highways?

In addition, I try not to spend my vacations in hell holes that I know are controlled by a terrorist organization that attacked another country.

Bierut is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Sidon is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. The road to Damascus is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Bierut Airport is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Lebanon's ports are NOT controlled by Hezbollah.

The road to damascus was destroyed to try and stop Hezbullah from getting more ammo, the airport just the same.

Haven't you been watching or reading the NEWS??? Israel is attacking major civilian population centers to get to Hezbollah. IIRC, the Geneva Conventions forbid nations from attacking civilian population centers.

It looks like the Israelis learned very well from their Nazi oppressors.

Yeah Israel Is on the verge of puting Arabs in showers

Some World Response:Switzerland, Amnesty, Physicians Condemn Israeli War Crimes

Freda Guttman-IMEMC - Wednesday, 05 July 2006, 11:40

Switzerland said Monday that Israel has been violating international law in its Gaza offensive by heavy destruction and endangering civilians in acts of collective punishment that are banned under the Geneva conventions on the conduct of warfare

"There is no doubt that has not taken the precautions required of it in international law to protect the civilian population and infrastructure," it said. It added that 's destruction last week of the main Gaza electricity power station and its attack on the office of the Palestinian prime minister was unjustified. It also urged to free Hamas legislators, including eight ministers who have been seized.

The 1949 Conventions established in 1949 are regarded as the cornerstone of international law on the obligations of warring and of occupying powers. Both the principle of proportionality and the ban on collective punishment are found in the Fourth Geneva Convention, which spells out the obligations of occupying powers toward the civilian population under their control.

, as the depository of the conventions, has a responsibility to call meetings if it finds general problems with the implementation of the treaty, but it does not have any special powers to interpret the document. There was no indication from the Swiss government that they were planning to implement a meeting.

Physicians for Human Rights-Israel and Amnesty International, also cited the deliberate attacks by Israeli forces against civilian property and infrastructure in the Gaza Strip as being in violation of international humanitarian law and constitute war crimes.

Amnesty urged to take urgent measures to remedy the long-term damage it has caused and immediately restore the supply -- at its own cost -- of electricity and water to Gazans. "As the occupying power, is bound under international law to protect and safeguard the basic human rights of the Palestinian population."

As well, Amnesty International reminded the international community, of its obligation under the Geneva Conventions to act. The deliberate destruction of the Gaza Strip?s only electricity power station, water networks, bridges, roads and other infrastructure is a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and has major and long-term humanitarian consequences for the 1.5 million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip. According to the Fourth Geneva Convention, "collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited" (article 33) as is the destruction of private or public property, "except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations" (Article 53). The Convention requires all states party to it to search for and ensure the prosecution of perpetrators of the war crime of "causing extensive destruction ... not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly". "Intentionally directing attacks against civilian objects" is also a war crime under Article 8 (b) (ii) of the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

Israel is using the same tactics is Lebanon that they used in Gaza. Hitler would be proud of his students.

:disgust:


If Israel wanted to kill as many civilians as they could, you'd see Lebanon wiped out.

 

[fornax]

I now expect that great humanitarian, Steven Haprer, to ignore the death of his fellow citizens, or to issue some idiotic response like some posters here, " war is war, what can we do". Those were probably just filthy Arabs with Canadian passports anyway, who cares. It's not someone we could make political capital out of, like that Iranian woman with dual citizenship.

Edit: typos

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Ronstang
If you stay in a war zone you may be killed especially if you hang out near potential targets. Doesn't take a huge IQ to figure that one out. Vacationing anywhere in that region of the world is such a huge risk that it makes absolutely no sense to do so. Stay in the First World if you expect safety.

You never had any respect for Israel to begin with so don't pretend like you ever did. You are one of the Muslim apologists around here and make attempts to justify just about anything they do in the world.

Israel closed down the airport so they couldn't leave.

Smack Down you still spewing your mis-information?
According to the article theose 8 people were no ttrying to even attempting to leave. Nor did they want to leave.
They had arrived from Canada to spend the Summer Holidays....

Lebanese TV reports said some of the victims were from the same family and had come from Canada to spend the summer holidays in Aitaroun.

So again which leads me toi believe you know squat about whats going on!

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/...east/index.html?section=cnn_topstories

Have you read any news about what israel is bombing. By the airport beging closed I meant blown up by israel. Get clue.

THE AIRPORT WAS NOT BLOWN UP. Good god, put a bullet in your head and do the species a favor. The news report you yourself linked to clearly says that the airport was not blown up.

OK, to be absolutely correct, the runway has several giant craters in it, compliments of the IDF, making it completly useless. You can't get out of Lebanon via the Beruit airport. Israel is also destroying the roads out of Lebanon to Syria, so you can't drive out. Israel is also blockading the country by sea so you can't get out by boat. So how are supposed to get out?

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: jimkyser

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Ronstang
If you stay in a war zone you may be killed especially if you hang out near potential targets. Doesn't take a huge IQ to figure that one out. Vacationing anywhere in that region of the world is such a huge risk that it makes absolutely no sense to do so. Stay in the First World if you expect safety.

You never had any respect for Israel to begin with so don't pretend like you ever did. You are one of the Muslim apologists around here and make attempts to justify just about anything they do in the world.

Israel closed down the airport so they couldn't leave.

Smack Down you still spewing your mis-information?
According to the article theose 8 people were no ttrying to even attempting to leave. Nor did they want to leave.
They had arrived from Canada to spend the Summer Holidays....

Lebanese TV reports said some of the victims were from the same family and had come from Canada to spend the summer holidays in Aitaroun.

So again which leads me toi believe you know squat about whats going on!

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/...east/index.html?section=cnn_topstories

Have you read any news about what israel is bombing. By the airport beging closed I meant blown up by israel. Get clue.

THE AIRPORT WAS NOT BLOWN UP. Good god, put a bullet in your head and do the species a favor. The news report you yourself linked to clearly says that the airport was not blown up.

OK, to be absolutely correct, the runway has several giant craters in it, compliments of the IDF, making it completly useless. You can't get out of Lebanon via the Beruit airport. Israel is also destroying the roads out of Lebanon to Syria, so you can't drive out. Israel is also blockading the country by sea so you can't get out by boat. So how are supposed to get out?

That's quite true, but there is a big difference between leveling an airport and taking out the runways. When you destroy the runways, you remove the ability to use the runways for 2+ days. When you completely destroy an airport ("blow it up"), you make the entire airport completely unusable for at least a month or two. If the intent of Israel was to completely destroy the infrastrure, they would have destroyed the whole airport.

 

[envy me]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: jimkyser

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: JEDIYoda

Originally posted by: smack Down

Originally posted by: Ronstang
If you stay in a war zone you may be killed especially if you hang out near potential targets. Doesn't take a huge IQ to figure that one out. Vacationing anywhere in that region of the world is such a huge risk that it makes absolutely no sense to do so. Stay in the First World if you expect safety.

You never had any respect for Israel to begin with so don't pretend like you ever did. You are one of the Muslim apologists around here and make attempts to justify just about anything they do in the world.

Israel closed down the airport so they couldn't leave.

Smack Down you still spewing your mis-information?
According to the article theose 8 people were no ttrying to even attempting to leave. Nor did they want to leave.
They had arrived from Canada to spend the Summer Holidays....

Lebanese TV reports said some of the victims were from the same family and had come from Canada to spend the summer holidays in Aitaroun.

So again which leads me toi believe you know squat about whats going on!

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/...east/index.html?section=cnn_topstories

Have you read any news about what israel is bombing. By the airport beging closed I meant blown up by israel. Get clue.

THE AIRPORT WAS NOT BLOWN UP. Good god, put a bullet in your head and do the species a favor. The news report you yourself linked to clearly says that the airport was not blown up.

OK, to be absolutely correct, the runway has several giant craters in it, compliments of the IDF, making it completly useless. You can't get out of Lebanon via the Beruit airport. Israel is also destroying the roads out of Lebanon to Syria, so you can't drive out. Israel is also blockading the country by sea so you can't get out by boat. So how are supposed to get out?

That's quite true, but there is a big difference between leveling an airport and taking out the runways. When you destroy the runways, you remove the ability to use the runways for 2+ days. When you completely destroy an airport ("blow it up"), you make the entire airport completely unusable for at least a month or two. If the intent of Israel was to completely destroy the infrastrure, they would have destroyed the whole airport.

And if you remove the ability to use the runways for 2 days, and issue a warning that rockets will be fired in a few hours than you are just adding insult to injury.

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

Originally posted by: BBond
Bierut is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Sidon is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. The road to Damascus is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Bierut Airport is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Lebanon's ports are NOT controlled by Hezbollah.

Are you saying that there is no Hezbollah presence in these areas that are targetted? Anyways, if Lebanon allowed Hezbollah to fester in the country and gain significant power and made no steps to reign them in, then they should expect the consequences.

I'm not sure if Israel is actively targetting civilians at all.

Israel has targetted cities where the Lebonese Christians are in control, so I really doubt there is any Hezbollah presence there.

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: jimkyser
OK, to be absolutely correct, the runway has several giant craters in it, compliments of the IDF, making it completly useless. You can't get out of Lebanon via the Beruit airport. Israel is also destroying the roads out of Lebanon to Syria, so you can't drive out. Israel is also blockading the country by sea so you can't get out by boat. So how are supposed to get out?

That's quite true, but there is a big difference between leveling an airport and taking out the runways. When you destroy the runways, you remove the ability to use the runways for 2+ days. When you completely destroy an airport ("blow it up"), you make the entire airport completely unusable for at least a month or two. If the intent of Israel was to completely destroy the infrastrure, they would have destroyed the whole airport.

Ah, but if you return a day or two later and blow up any repairs that have been made, as the IDF has done, you can keep the airport unuseable for as long as you want. Today they also blew up several fuel storage tanks, so the airplanes can't get fuel even if the runway was useable. On top of that, if you were to try to use a smaller airport, the IDF has declared an air blockade so they would most likely shoot you down. The fact is that you can't get out of Lebanon right now no matter how hard you want and the IDF is doing everything they can to keep it that way.

 

[bctbct]

Frankly I am shocked by some of the responses in this thread. I am looking for a logical explanation.

1. Hezbollah makes numerous attacks against Isreal.
2. Isreal in an effort to show this group they will not tolerate attacks against them, attacks back.
3. Unfortunately some visitors from other countries are caught in crossfire.
4. Some people here underestimate how much damage Isreal can do, suggest them switching to bow and arrows.

For the record I am totally against Iraq because a) its a complete waste of time and money b) Iraq did not attack us, let alone on our soil

Isreal has been the whipping boy for every country in the middle east and its based on religious persecution.

My understanding is that 3 of the cabinet members for the Lebaneese PM belong to Hezbollah.

Fess up if you're problem with Isreals action are based on your religious beliefs.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: envy me

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: envy me

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: envy me

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

I am unsure about the situation for this attack. It was an air strike targeting a place where civilians and terrorists were together. So I am assuming it is some sort of building, or street, or other "location". Proper precautions were not taken to isolate the terrorists from the civilians.

I'm not sure what exactly they could have done in a time of war. What is your suggestion? I personally expect civilian deaths in a war.

I don't see how any civilian would willfully hangout in a place occupied by military groups in a time of war (asside from journalists and reporters)

Who knows...we don't even know if these people were killed from a stray missile or anything else.

Instead of these "precision strikes" which cause collateral damage. Why not send in tanks and troops and isolate the few terrorists. It's very easy to be hiding away in the sky and firing rockets. The number of civilians killed in the Lebanon side far outnumber the number of Israeli's involved. "Air strikes" are their solution to everything.

LOL, I love how you display your utter ignorance. The people Israel is going after are not going to just wait around while tanks come after them. Good lord you are stupid.

So you agree with their careless missile firing tactics in which innocents get killed then?

1) Define "innocent." Much of the Lebonese population supports Hezbollah. I'm not saying that it makes everything right, but it is a consideration.

Innocent meaning civilians. Not armed fundamentalists. People like you or I who live and work in peace.



2) This is war. Innocent people get killed. Try to find a war where innocent people don't get killed.

If it is war then how come the official Lebanese army is not involved?


3) Read your last statement. Which side are you talking about? The Lebanese are firing unguided rockets into Israel. They are specifically targeting "innocent civilians." The Israeli forces are firing rockets into Lebanon. The only different between the two sides is that the Israeli rockets are targeted, meaning they are trying to hit a certain structure whereas the Lebanese are firing in the general direction of cities. Based on that, I would say the Lebanese are more in the wrong than the Israelis (note that I said more in the wrong because both sides are in the wrong here). The point is, the Israeli's ARE killing civilians, but it does not appear to be intentional while the Lebanese are killing civilians are it DOES appear to be intentional.

Firstly Hezbollah, NOT the Lebanese are firing the rockets. Secondly, they were firing the rockets at military bases.

4) All members of Hezbollah are listed as civilians in death statistics.

Proof? Links? Articles? Anything to back that up?

I'd be happy to help out. First, Hezbollah has been firing the rockets at population centers. I have NO CLUE where you have gotten the idea that they were doing anything different. The rockets being fired are UNGUIDED. The odds of it hitting a military base are very, very small. They have to fire hundreds to hit a military base once. Sure, you can say that they are trying to hit military bases, but the only way you can say that is knowing that they are much, much more likely to hit civilians. Since they keep firing them even though most that do hit something actually hit civilians, then they are in reality knowlingly targeting civilians. Oh, and here's your proof. Read through any of the stories. In fact, here's one about them hitting a train station. Even better, how about Al Jazeera admitting that they target cities.

Furthermore, Hezbollah is a PART OF LEBANON. They are a recognized political party in the country and (as of 2003 at least) had 11 members in parliment. To note, I am not saying they *control* all of Lebanon, only that they are a top player.

To get to your last point re the involvement of the Lebanese army. From my understanding they have not gotten involved because it is not an invasion with the intent to occupy. There are two key ideas you need to be aware of. First, the Israeli army is superior in every respect. The Lebanese will lost in a battle. Second, there is no way Israel will stay in the country for very long, it will have to bow to international political pressure. Because of this, there is no reason for the Lebanese military to be destroyed for no significant gain.

 

[envy me]

Originally posted by: bctbct
Frankly I am shocked by some of the responses in this thread. I am looking for a logical explanation.

1. Hezbollah makes numerous attacks against Isreal.

After Israel fired onto a beach strip in Gaza (during which time Israel was attacking Gaza) breaking the cease-fire in the region.


2. Isreal in an effort to show this group they will not tolerate attacks against them, attacks back.

By invading another country.

3. Unfortunately some visitors from other countries are caught in crossfire.

Even more unfortuneate if you knew any of the ones killed.

4. Some people here underestimate how much damage Isreal can do, suggest them switching to bow and arrows.

Is killing 100+ civilians worth the lives of 2 soldiers? Both sides have had casualties (moreso on the non-Israel side)

For the record I am totally against Iraq because a) its a complete waste of time and money b) Iraq did not attack us, let alone on our soil

Isreal has been the whipping boy for every country in the middle east and its based on religious persecution.

My understanding is that 3 of the cabinet members for the Lebaneese PM belong to Hezbollah.

Fess up if you're problem with Isreals action are based on your religious beliefs.

 

[envy me]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: envy me

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: envy me

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: envy me

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

I am unsure about the situation for this attack. It was an air strike targeting a place where civilians and terrorists were together. So I am assuming it is some sort of building, or street, or other "location". Proper precautions were not taken to isolate the terrorists from the civilians.

I'm not sure what exactly they could have done in a time of war. What is your suggestion? I personally expect civilian deaths in a war.

I don't see how any civilian would willfully hangout in a place occupied by military groups in a time of war (asside from journalists and reporters)

Who knows...we don't even know if these people were killed from a stray missile or anything else.

Instead of these "precision strikes" which cause collateral damage. Why not send in tanks and troops and isolate the few terrorists. It's very easy to be hiding away in the sky and firing rockets. The number of civilians killed in the Lebanon side far outnumber the number of Israeli's involved. "Air strikes" are their solution to everything.

LOL, I love how you display your utter ignorance. The people Israel is going after are not going to just wait around while tanks come after them. Good lord you are stupid.

So you agree with their careless missile firing tactics in which innocents get killed then?

1) Define "innocent." Much of the Lebonese population supports Hezbollah. I'm not saying that it makes everything right, but it is a consideration.

Innocent meaning civilians. Not armed fundamentalists. People like you or I who live and work in peace.



2) This is war. Innocent people get killed. Try to find a war where innocent people don't get killed.

If it is war then how come the official Lebanese army is not involved?


3) Read your last statement. Which side are you talking about? The Lebanese are firing unguided rockets into Israel. They are specifically targeting "innocent civilians." The Israeli forces are firing rockets into Lebanon. The only different between the two sides is that the Israeli rockets are targeted, meaning they are trying to hit a certain structure whereas the Lebanese are firing in the general direction of cities. Based on that, I would say the Lebanese are more in the wrong than the Israelis (note that I said more in the wrong because both sides are in the wrong here). The point is, the Israeli's ARE killing civilians, but it does not appear to be intentional while the Lebanese are killing civilians are it DOES appear to be intentional.

Firstly Hezbollah, NOT the Lebanese are firing the rockets. Secondly, they were firing the rockets at military bases.

4) All members of Hezbollah are listed as civilians in death statistics.

Proof? Links? Articles? Anything to back that up?

I'd be happy to help out. First, Hezbollah has been firing the rockets at population centers. I have NO CLUE where you have gotten the idea that they were doing anything different. The rockets being fired are UNGUIDED. The odds of it hitting a military base are very, very small. They have to fire hundreds to hit a military base once. Sure, you can say that they are trying to hit military bases, but the only way you can say that is knowing that they are much, much more likely to hit civilians. Since they keep firing them even though most that do hit something actually hit civilians, then they are in reality knowlingly targeting civilians. Oh, and here's your proof. Read through any of the stories. In fact, here's one about them hitting a train station. Even better, how about Al Jazeera admitting that they target cities.

Furthermore, Hezbollah is a PART OF LEBANON. They are a recognized political party in the country and (as of 2003 at least) had 11 members in parliment. To note, I am not saying they *control* all of Lebanon, only that they are a top player.

To get to your last point re the involvement of the Lebanese army. From my understanding they have not gotten involved because it is not an invasion with the intent to occupy. There are two key ideas you need to be aware of. First, the Israeli army is superior in every respect. The Lebanese will lost in a battle. Second, there is no way Israel will stay in the country for very long, it will have to bow to international political pressure. Because of this, there is no reason for the Lebanese military to be destroyed for no significant gain.

What do you think would happen if an Israeli war plane was shot down over Lebanon by the Lebanese army while on a mission to launch rockets?

Do you think Israel would "retaliate back" (if thats what you want to call it) or just accept the loss?

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: envy me

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: envy me

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: envy me

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: envy me

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

I am unsure about the situation for this attack. It was an air strike targeting a place where civilians and terrorists were together. So I am assuming it is some sort of building, or street, or other "location". Proper precautions were not taken to isolate the terrorists from the civilians.

I'm not sure what exactly they could have done in a time of war. What is your suggestion? I personally expect civilian deaths in a war.

I don't see how any civilian would willfully hangout in a place occupied by military groups in a time of war (asside from journalists and reporters)

Who knows...we don't even know if these people were killed from a stray missile or anything else.

Instead of these "precision strikes" which cause collateral damage. Why not send in tanks and troops and isolate the few terrorists. It's very easy to be hiding away in the sky and firing rockets. The number of civilians killed in the Lebanon side far outnumber the number of Israeli's involved. "Air strikes" are their solution to everything.

LOL, I love how you display your utter ignorance. The people Israel is going after are not going to just wait around while tanks come after them. Good lord you are stupid.

So you agree with their careless missile firing tactics in which innocents get killed then?

1) Define "innocent." Much of the Lebonese population supports Hezbollah. I'm not saying that it makes everything right, but it is a consideration.

Innocent meaning civilians. Not armed fundamentalists. People like you or I who live and work in peace.



2) This is war. Innocent people get killed. Try to find a war where innocent people don't get killed.

If it is war then how come the official Lebanese army is not involved?


3) Read your last statement. Which side are you talking about? The Lebanese are firing unguided rockets into Israel. They are specifically targeting "innocent civilians." The Israeli forces are firing rockets into Lebanon. The only different between the two sides is that the Israeli rockets are targeted, meaning they are trying to hit a certain structure whereas the Lebanese are firing in the general direction of cities. Based on that, I would say the Lebanese are more in the wrong than the Israelis (note that I said more in the wrong because both sides are in the wrong here). The point is, the Israeli's ARE killing civilians, but it does not appear to be intentional while the Lebanese are killing civilians are it DOES appear to be intentional.

Firstly Hezbollah, NOT the Lebanese are firing the rockets. Secondly, they were firing the rockets at military bases.

4) All members of Hezbollah are listed as civilians in death statistics.

Proof? Links? Articles? Anything to back that up?

I'd be happy to help out. First, Hezbollah has been firing the rockets at population centers. I have NO CLUE where you have gotten the idea that they were doing anything different. The rockets being fired are UNGUIDED. The odds of it hitting a military base are very, very small. They have to fire hundreds to hit a military base once. Sure, you can say that they are trying to hit military bases, but the only way you can say that is knowing that they are much, much more likely to hit civilians. Since they keep firing them even though most that do hit something actually hit civilians, then they are in reality knowlingly targeting civilians. Oh, and here's your proof. Read through any of the stories. In fact, here's one about them hitting a train station. Even better, how about Al Jazeera admitting that they target cities.

Furthermore, Hezbollah is a PART OF LEBANON. They are a recognized political party in the country and (as of 2003 at least) had 11 members in parliment. To note, I am not saying they *control* all of Lebanon, only that they are a top player.

To get to your last point re the involvement of the Lebanese army. From my understanding they have not gotten involved because it is not an invasion with the intent to occupy. There are two key ideas you need to be aware of. First, the Israeli army is superior in every respect. The Lebanese will lost in a battle. Second, there is no way Israel will stay in the country for very long, it will have to bow to international political pressure. Because of this, there is no reason for the Lebanese military to be destroyed for no significant gain.

What do you think would happen if an Israeli war plane was shot down over Lebanon by the Lebanese army while on a mission to launch rockets?

Do you think Israel would "retaliate back" (if thats what you want to call it) or just accept the loss?

Whoah, total red herring.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

Originally posted by: jimkyser

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: jimkyser
OK, to be absolutely correct, the runway has several giant craters in it, compliments of the IDF, making it completly useless. You can't get out of Lebanon via the Beruit airport. Israel is also destroying the roads out of Lebanon to Syria, so you can't drive out. Israel is also blockading the country by sea so you can't get out by boat. So how are supposed to get out?

That's quite true, but there is a big difference between leveling an airport and taking out the runways. When you destroy the runways, you remove the ability to use the runways for 2+ days. When you completely destroy an airport ("blow it up"), you make the entire airport completely unusable for at least a month or two. If the intent of Israel was to completely destroy the infrastrure, they would have destroyed the whole airport.

Ah, but if you return a day or two later and blow up any repairs that have been made, as the IDF has done, you can keep the airport unuseable for as long as you want. Today they also blew up several fuel storage tanks, so the airplanes can't get fuel even if the runway was useable. On top of that, if you were to try to use a smaller airport, the IDF has declared an air blockade so they would most likely shoot you down. The fact is that you can't get out of Lebanon right now no matter how hard you want and the IDF is doing everything they can to keep it that way.

Right, but I think you are missing a subtle difference. The attacks so far by Israel have been a nuisance at worst regarding the infastructure. Everything so far can be repaired in a couple of weeks. The attacks are by no means "devastating." Israel has been showing restraint in its attacks. If they really wanted to screw the country over for a long time, they could very easily do so by destroying all of the bridges and major roads in the country.

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: envy me
What do you think would happen if an Israeli war plane was shot down over Lebanon by the Lebanese army while on a mission to launch rockets?

Do you think Israel would "retaliate back" (if thats what you want to call it) or just accept the loss?

Israel would claim Lebanon attacked them and ratchet up the program their already working on a few more ticks.

 

[envy me]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: jimkyser

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: jimkyser
OK, to be absolutely correct, the runway has several giant craters in it, compliments of the IDF, making it completly useless. You can't get out of Lebanon via the Beruit airport. Israel is also destroying the roads out of Lebanon to Syria, so you can't drive out. Israel is also blockading the country by sea so you can't get out by boat. So how are supposed to get out?

That's quite true, but there is a big difference between leveling an airport and taking out the runways. When you destroy the runways, you remove the ability to use the runways for 2+ days. When you completely destroy an airport ("blow it up"), you make the entire airport completely unusable for at least a month or two. If the intent of Israel was to completely destroy the infrastrure, they would have destroyed the whole airport.

Ah, but if you return a day or two later and blow up any repairs that have been made, as the IDF has done, you can keep the airport unuseable for as long as you want. Today they also blew up several fuel storage tanks, so the airplanes can't get fuel even if the runway was useable. On top of that, if you were to try to use a smaller airport, the IDF has declared an air blockade so they would most likely shoot you down. The fact is that you can't get out of Lebanon right now no matter how hard you want and the IDF is doing everything they can to keep it that way.

Right, but I think you are missing a subtle difference. The attacks so far by Israel have been a nuisance at worst regarding the infastructure. Everything so far can be repaired in a couple of weeks. The attacks are by no means "devastating." Israel has been showing restraint in its attacks. If they really wanted to screw the country over for a long time, they could very easily do so by destroying all of the bridges and major roads in the country.

If the infrastructure controls peoples ability to leave the war zone and causes 8 innocents to lose their lives because lack thereof, I wouldn't call it a nuisance.

Roads are easily fixed, but when you can't leave because the roads are destroyed what are you to do?

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: jimkyser

Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf

Originally posted by: jimkyser
OK, to be absolutely correct, the runway has several giant craters in it, compliments of the IDF, making it completly useless. You can't get out of Lebanon via the Beruit airport. Israel is also destroying the roads out of Lebanon to Syria, so you can't drive out. Israel is also blockading the country by sea so you can't get out by boat. So how are supposed to get out?

That's quite true, but there is a big difference between leveling an airport and taking out the runways. When you destroy the runways, you remove the ability to use the runways for 2+ days. When you completely destroy an airport ("blow it up"), you make the entire airport completely unusable for at least a month or two. If the intent of Israel was to completely destroy the infrastrure, they would have destroyed the whole airport.

Ah, but if you return a day or two later and blow up any repairs that have been made, as the IDF has done, you can keep the airport unuseable for as long as you want. Today they also blew up several fuel storage tanks, so the airplanes can't get fuel even if the runway was useable. On top of that, if you were to try to use a smaller airport, the IDF has declared an air blockade so they would most likely shoot you down. The fact is that you can't get out of Lebanon right now no matter how hard you want and the IDF is doing everything they can to keep it that way.

Right, but I think you are missing a subtle difference. The attacks so far by Israel have been a nuisance at worst regarding the infastructure. Everything so far can be repaired in a couple of weeks. The attacks are by no means "devastating." Israel has been showing restraint in its attacks. If they really wanted to screw the country over for a long time, they could very easily do so by destroying all of the bridges and major roads in the country.

No, I have missed nothing, This is a thread about a group of Canadian nationals in Lebanon on vacation. They happen to be there when fighting erupts between Hezbollah and Israel. They get killed by an Israeli airstrike. The pro-Israeli crowd here comes out and blames these dead people for their fate because they should have gotten out of Lebanon as soon as the fighting started. They also completely deny any fault on Israel's part even though Israel has made it pretty much impossible to leave the country. So your subtle difference of it being being only a nuisance for the long term is totally unimportant. The fact is these people couldn't get out of Lebanon and Israel is very much responsible for that.

 

[lozina]

Originally posted by: RabidMongoose

It's not anywhere near a massacre. Israel is targetting the country's infrastructure as they are responsible for what has really happened. However, they should not be targetting the civilian population.

Oh please, where is the proof these Lebanese people are responsible for the abduction of those 2 soldiers? These 8 Canadians must also have been involved too right?

If the US did something to warrant an all out war, then it would be justified to them, but you're talking about specifically targetting civilians. Are the Israelis specifically targetting civilians? I don't think so. However, I would expect some civilian deaths in the war.

To Osama Bin Laden, of course the US did something to warrant his so-called war. He laid out the problems he had with America in the taped speeches he made. His reasons for war on America are about as stupid as Israel's reasons for attacking Lebanese civilians.

And YES Israel is specificaly targetting civilians! WTF do you think an International Airport is or a Power Station or a public highway? Is that not civilian? Well then what about the apartment buildings full of families and villages they have bombed? They could hit a hospital full of babies and you'd find a way to justify it.

All we have are the hollow words of Israeli officials who continue to insist they don't want to kill civilians, and those empty words seems to satsify you. But meanwhile they continue to slaughter countless civilians as they bomb their houses and infrastrure. It's like the movie Mars Attacks where the aliens are killing anyone on the street they come accross while an audio recording is blasting "we come in peace. we don't want to hurt you".

You must be a very emotional person if you wish death upon other anonymous people on the Internet. That is actually hilarious.

I hope that you get banned for what you just said.

Would you like a tissue to wipe your tears with that? How bout a side of fries?

 

[bctbct]

Originally posted by: jimkyser

No, I have missed nothing, This is a thread about a group of Canadian nationals in Lebanon on vacation. They happen to be there when fighting erupts between Hezbollah and Israel. They get killed by an Israeli airstrike. The pro-Israeli crowd here comes out and blames these dead people for their fate because they should have gotten out of Lebanon as soon as the fighting started. They also completely deny any fault on Israel's part even though Israel has made it pretty much impossible to leave the country. So your subtle difference of it being being only a nuisance for the long term is totally unimportant. The fact is these people couldn't get out of Lebanon and Israel is very much responsible for that.

Sorry when you go to a area of the world that is known for all sorts of violence, dont expect others to pity you when bad things occur.

 

[jimkyser]

Originally posted by: bctbct

Originally posted by: jimkyser

No, I have missed nothing, This is a thread about a group of Canadian nationals in Lebanon on vacation. They happen to be there when fighting erupts between Hezbollah and Israel. They get killed by an Israeli airstrike. The pro-Israeli crowd here comes out and blames these dead people for their fate because they should have gotten out of Lebanon as soon as the fighting started. They also completely deny any fault on Israel's part even though Israel has made it pretty much impossible to leave the country. So your subtle difference of it being being only a nuisance for the long term is totally unimportant. The fact is these people couldn't get out of Lebanon and Israel is very much responsible for that.

Sorry when you go to a area of the world that is known for all sorts of violence, dont expect others to pity you when bad things occur.

So I guess you have no pity for the citizens of Israel then either, eh? After all they live in the same dangerous region of the world. So if Hezbollah kills some more of them with one of their rocket attacks, it's just too bad, right?

 

[dexvx]

Originally posted by: Ronstang
If you stay in a war zone you may be killed especially if you hang out near potential targets. Doesn't take a huge IQ to figure that one out. Vacationing anywhere in that region of the world is such a huge risk that it makes absolutely no sense to do so. Stay in the First World if you expect safety.

You never had any respect for Israel to begin with so don't pretend like you ever did. You are one of the Muslim apologists around here and make attempts to justify just about anything they do in the world.

When Isreal destroys roads leading out of Lebenon, blockade the ports, and render the airport inoperable, tell me, oh wise one, how are you supposed to GTFO.