Israeli terrorist attack kills 8 Canadians

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lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf


Hezbolla has been operating out of Lebanon with the full consent and support of the government and a large part of the population. Hezbollah (and therefore Lebanese) attacks on Israel in the past few years have killed far more civilians than the current Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Unsubstantiated.
Speculation.
Assumption.

Hezbolah does not speak for Lebanon any more than the KKK speaks for America.

Has Lebanon made any significant attempt to remove Hezbollah from their midst? That is really the main question for me if this war from Israel is justified. But I'm not sure why I'm even talking about this with a Burger King employee that is apparently having emotional issues.

Gee I guess it's rather hard to remove an armed group like Hezbollah when your government has been restricted by the policies of Israel and US. Funny how convenient that is, isn't it? Don't let Lebanon build up any substantial police or army force and then complain when they are ineffective at stopping a sophisticated armed guerilla group within their country.

It's like the argument Israel makes to Palestinian government not doing anything to take care of the terrorists there after Israel demolishes the police stations and rolls over the police cars with their tanks.



 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf


Hezbolla has been operating out of Lebanon with the full consent and support of the government and a large part of the population. Hezbollah (and therefore Lebanese) attacks on Israel in the past few years have killed far more civilians than the current Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Unsubstantiated.
Speculation.
Assumption.

Hezbolah does not speak for Lebanon any more than the KKK speaks for America.

Has Lebanon made any significant attempt to remove Hezbollah from their midst? That is really the main question for me if this war from Israel is justified. But I'm not sure why I'm even talking about this with a Burger King employee that is apparently having emotional issues.

Gee I guess it's rather hard to remove an armed group like Hezbollah when your government has been restricted by the policies of Israel and US. Funny how convenient that is, isn't it? Don't let Lebanon build up any substantial police or army force and then complain when they are ineffective at stopping a sophisticated armed guerilla group within their country.

It's like the argument Israel makes to Palestinian government not doing anything to take care of the terrorists there after Israel demolishes the police stations and rolls over the police cars with their tanks.

Unsubstantiated.
Speculation.
Assumption.


Proof?


So I assume it was somehow some else's fault that Afghanistan never removed the terrorist groups from its soil as well.
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: lozina
Gee I guess it's rather hard to remove an armed group like Hezbollah when your government has been restricted by the policies of Israel and US. Funny how convenient that is, isn't it? Don't let Lebanon build up any substantial police or army force and then complain when they are ineffective at stopping a sophisticated armed guerilla group within their country.

It's like the argument Israel makes to Palestinian government not doing anything to take care of the terrorists there after Israel demolishes the police stations and rolls over the police cars with their tanks.

It doesn't matter if it's hard. Did they actually make any significant effort? Did they try to get any help from anyone? If it's difficult then that's fine - but did they actually try in any form? Or were they essentially allowed to exist within the country without any resistance?
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: lozina
Gee I guess it's rather hard to remove an armed group like Hezbollah when your government has been restricted by the policies of Israel and US. Funny how convenient that is, isn't it? Don't let Lebanon build up any substantial police or army force and then complain when they are ineffective at stopping a sophisticated armed guerilla group within their country.

It's like the argument Israel makes to Palestinian government not doing anything to take care of the terrorists there after Israel demolishes the police stations and rolls over the police cars with their tanks.

It doesn't matter if it's hard. Did they actually make any significant effort? Did they try to get any help from anyone? If it's difficult then that's fine - but did they actually try in any form? Or were they essentially allowed to exist within the country without any resistance?

Were they given a chance to? The bombs were dropping probably before the Labanese officials even knew WTF was going on
 
Aug 14, 2001
11,061
0
0
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: lozina
Gee I guess it's rather hard to remove an armed group like Hezbollah when your government has been restricted by the policies of Israel and US. Funny how convenient that is, isn't it? Don't let Lebanon build up any substantial police or army force and then complain when they are ineffective at stopping a sophisticated armed guerilla group within their country.

It's like the argument Israel makes to Palestinian government not doing anything to take care of the terrorists there after Israel demolishes the police stations and rolls over the police cars with their tanks.

It doesn't matter if it's hard. Did they actually make any significant effort? Did they try to get any help from anyone? If it's difficult then that's fine - but did they actually try in any form? Or were they essentially allowed to exist within the country without any resistance?

Were they given a chance to? The bombs were dropping probably before the Labanese officials even knew WTF was going on

I'm pretty sure that they knew about Hezbollah before bombs were dropping on them. However, I do agree with you (and stated this earlier in this thread in my analogy) in that I would have waited some time before an all out war.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: envy me
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf


Hezbolla has been operating out of Lebanon with the full consent and support of the government and a large part of the population. Hezbollah (and therefore Lebanese) attacks on Israel in the past few years have killed far more civilians than the current Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Unsubstantiated.
Speculation.
Assumption.

Hezbolah does not speak for Lebanon any more than the KKK speaks for America.

:thumbsup:


Really? Is that so?

Hezbollah Wins Easy Victory In Elections in Southern Lebanon
Hezbollah controls 18% of parliment">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah</a>
Hezbollah was first in parliment in 1992
Glabalsecurity link

A small area in Southern Lebanon? 18% control? LOL please...

yeah I guess our country is just totally overrun with these damned Independents with their whopping 1 seat in the House of Representative, right? :roll:
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Yeah, if we would have offered to arrange help, that would have been cool. But bombing civilian istructure isn't cool at all.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: envy me
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf


Hezbolla has been operating out of Lebanon with the full consent and support of the government and a large part of the population. Hezbollah (and therefore Lebanese) attacks on Israel in the past few years have killed far more civilians than the current Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Unsubstantiated.
Speculation.
Assumption.

Hezbolah does not speak for Lebanon any more than the KKK speaks for America.

:thumbsup:


Really? Is that so?

Hezbollah Wins Easy Victory In Elections in Southern Lebanon
Hezbollah controls 18% of parliment">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah</a>
Hezbollah was first in parliment in 1992
Glabalsecurity link

A small area in Southern Lebanon? 18% control? LOL please...

yeah I guess our country is just totally overrun with these damned Independents with their whopping 1 seat in the House of Representative, right? :roll:

Actually, that would be 23 seats, and it isn't just the one part of southern lebanon, it is all of lebanon. It's funny how you call BS on it until I point out a fact anyone can find in 10 seconds of searching.
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: envy me
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf


Hezbolla has been operating out of Lebanon with the full consent and support of the government and a large part of the population. Hezbollah (and therefore Lebanese) attacks on Israel in the past few years have killed far more civilians than the current Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Unsubstantiated.
Speculation.
Assumption.

Hezbolah does not speak for Lebanon any more than the KKK speaks for America.

:thumbsup:


Really? Is that so?

Hezbollah Wins Easy Victory In Elections in Southern Lebanon
Hezbollah controls 18% of parliment">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah</a>
Hezbollah was first in parliment in 1992
Glabalsecurity link

A small area in Southern Lebanon? 18% control? LOL please...

yeah I guess our country is just totally overrun with these damned Independents with their whopping 1 seat in the House of Representative, right? :roll:

Actually, that would be 23 seats, and it isn't just the one part of southern lebanon, it is all of lebanon. It's funny how you call BS on it until I point out a fact anyone can find in 10 seconds of searching.

Yeah in your sense of reality 18% is a clear majority right? They can really press their issues with that kind of overwhelming influence. :roll:
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,631
7,682
136
Originally posted by: envy me
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
You think that they specifically targetted these civilians? Why?


No.. I think they failed to take ANY precautions to make sure innocents would not be harmed.

It's a war zone, innocents need to leave. They allow Hezbollah to wage war and make their homes a war zone, anyone nearby should expect it to be a life threatening situation.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: envy me
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf


Hezbolla has been operating out of Lebanon with the full consent and support of the government and a large part of the population. Hezbollah (and therefore Lebanese) attacks on Israel in the past few years have killed far more civilians than the current Israeli attacks on Lebanon.

Unsubstantiated.
Speculation.
Assumption.

Hezbolah does not speak for Lebanon any more than the KKK speaks for America.

:thumbsup:


Really? Is that so?

Hezbollah Wins Easy Victory In Elections in Southern Lebanon
Hezbollah controls 18% of parliment">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hezbollah</a>
Hezbollah was first in parliment in 1992
Glabalsecurity link

A small area in Southern Lebanon? 18% control? LOL please...

yeah I guess our country is just totally overrun with these damned Independents with their whopping 1 seat in the House of Representative, right? :roll:

Actually, that would be 23 seats, and it isn't just the one part of southern lebanon, it is all of lebanon. It's funny how you call BS on it until I point out a fact anyone can find in 10 seconds of searching.

Yeah in your sense of reality 18% is a clear majority right? They can really press their issues with that kind of overwhelming influence. :roll:

So we've now gone from "Hezbollah can't possibly have any affiliation with the government" to "Well they only control 1/5th" Riiiiiiiiiight.
 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
Actually we started with "Hezbolla has been operating out of Lebanon with the full consent and support of the government and a large part of the population."
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Actually we started with "Hezbolla has been operating out of Lebanon with the full consent and support of the government and a large part of the population."

And ended at "Hezbolla has been operating out of Lebanon with the full consent and support of the government and a large part of the population."
 

lozina

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
11,709
8
81
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Actually we started with "Hezbolla has been operating out of Lebanon with the full consent and support of the government and a large part of the population."

And ended at "Hezbolla has been operating out of Lebanon with the full consent and support of the government and a large part of the population."

Are you just acting thick-headed or is that the root problem here?

You never substantiated your wild claim. 18% of the seats in government does not mean "full government support".

Hezbollah does not speak for the Lebanese government. They do not have enough power in the government. The Lebanese government currently is dominated by an anti-Syrian faction and is in no way associated with Hezbollah.

 

kylebisme

Diamond Member
Mar 25, 2000
9,396
0
0
And Israel's attacks are not contained to that area where Hezbollah does have popular support.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
Originally posted by: lozina
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: TheSnowman
Actually we started with "Hezbolla has been operating out of Lebanon with the full consent and support of the government and a large part of the population."

And ended at "Hezbolla has been operating out of Lebanon with the full consent and support of the government and a large part of the population."

Are you just acting thick-headed or is that the root problem here?

You never substantiated your wild claim. 18% of the seats in government does not mean "full government support".

Hezbollah does not speak for the Lebanese government. They do not have enough power in the government. The Lebanese government currently is dominated by an anti-Syrian faction and is in no way associated with Hezbollah.


Are you dense? Hezbollah is a terrorist oganization. By allowing them to exist within the country, the Lebanese government is giving them permission by default. If they left it at that they would have some deniablity. Instead, they allow the organization to be a major part of the government. By welcoming them into all areas of the government, they are supporting the organization. They are not arresting Hezbollah members. They are not going after the people firing rockets from the country into Israel every day. They are doing NOTHING. If I watch someone commit a murder, and then invite him to join my local housing board, and he keeps committing murder while I do nothing to stop him, am I as guilty?

Oh, and 18% is a very significant part of the legislature. I would suggest you get aquainted with the US House where the handful of independants have dispraportionate power.
 

jimkyser

Senior member
Nov 13, 2004
547
0
0
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Oh, and 18% is a very significant part of the legislature. I would suggest you get aquainted with the US House where the handful of independants have dispraportionate power.
Handful of independants? There is one, Bernard Sanders from Vermont. He has very little power.
 

SarcasticDwarf

Diamond Member
Jun 8, 2001
9,574
1
76
Originally posted by: jimkyser
Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Oh, and 18% is a very significant part of the legislature. I would suggest you get aquainted with the US House where the handful of independants have dispraportionate power.
Handful of independants? There is one, Bernard Sanders from Vermont. He has very little power.

Sorry, I think the term I am looking for is swing votes. There are always a few Democrats that can be swayed to vote the other way and vide versa.
 

splaz

Junior Member
Jul 2, 2006
3
0
0

I think Israel is out of line. They are far too heavy handed.

I may be wrong but it was my belief from what I've read that Hezbollah, kidnapped and killed handful of Israeli soldiers. Israel retaliated and then Hezbollah began a rocket attack.

Israel did not give Lebanon an opportunity to deal with Hezbollah.

Hizbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said the soldiers had been seized to force Israel to release prisoners, but Israel state says the attack was an act of war and that it would not swap prisoners.

"You don't negotiate with terror organizations," Gideon Meir, senior Israeli Foreign Ministry official, told Reuters.
(Source)

Let's say there was a terrorist organistation in your own country. How would you feel if that organisation provokes a foreign country and then that foreign country attacks yours and kills a large number of innocent people ?

Hezbollah does have a large involvementin Lebanon but that doesn't mean that Lebanon as a whole is involved. Israel feels that they are a terrorist organisation. So why haven't they dealt with them like they are one ?

They can't deal with a foreign country the same way they do with Palestine.

Also given that Hezbollah is tied up in Lebanon's government and does have public backing it is even more reason to not attack. Syria and Iran are sympathetic to Hezbollah. They risk dragging in other countries and an all out war in the middle east. It's just heavy handed actions with no thought of the consequences.

Also another thing is that it appears to me that Israel doesn't retaliate in proportion to what has transpired. I am saddened by the fact that Israeli soldiers were killed and kidnapped, yet that doesn't justify killing many more in retaliation. I read in the newspaper that an Israeli gunship attacked 2 cars filled with refugees. 18 dead civilians, 9 children included. Unacceptable. I'm not justifying it but in this case Hezbollah attacked and kidnapped soldiers, not civilians. I find that an important difference.

I by no means support what Hezbollah has done. However I feel that Israel as the dominant military force needs to take a greater responsiblity for it's actions and work on a peaceful solution to problems with it's neighbours rather than reverting to force.

 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,631
7,682
136
Originally posted by: splaz

I think Israel is out of line. They are far too heavy handed.

I may be wrong but it was my belief from what I've read that Hezbollah, kidnapped and killed handful of Israeli soldiers. Israel retaliated and then Hezbollah began a rocket attack.

Israel did not give Lebanon an opportunity to deal with Hezbollah.

Hizbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah said the soldiers had been seized to force Israel to release prisoners, but Israel state says the attack was an act of war and that it would not swap prisoners.

"You don't negotiate with terror organizations," Gideon Meir, senior Israeli Foreign Ministry official, told Reuters.
(Source)

Let's say there was a terrorist organistation in your own country. How would you feel if that organisation provokes a foreign country and then that foreign country attacks yours and kills a large number of innocent people ?

Hezbollah does have a large involvementin Lebanon but that doesn't mean that Lebanon as a whole is involved. Israel feels that they are a terrorist organisation. So why haven't they dealt with them like they are one ?

They can't deal with a foreign country the same way they do with Palestine.

Also given that Hezbollah is tied up in Lebanon's government and does have public backing it is even more reason to not attack. Syria and Iran are sympathetic to Hezbollah. They risk dragging in other countries and an all out war in the middle east. It's just heavy handed actions with no thought of the consequences.

Also another thing is that it appears to me that Israel doesn't retaliate in proportion to what has transpired. I am saddened by the fact that Israeli soldiers were killed and kidnapped, yet that doesn't justify killing many more in retaliation. I read in the newspaper that an Israeli gunship attacked 2 cars filled with refugees. 18 dead civilians, 9 children included. Unacceptable. I'm not justifying it but in this case Hezbollah attacked and kidnapped soldiers, not civilians. I find that an important difference.

I by no means support what Hezbollah has done. However I feel that Israel as the dominant military force needs to take a greater responsiblity for it's actions and work on a peaceful solution to problems with it's neighbours rather than reverting to force.

Lebanon had 6 years to stop their people from waging war. You mention a small raid on Israel, but since then they've fired hundreds of rockets. Does that sound like a terrorist group that was being disarmed and dealt with by its government?

Okay so you?re right, Lebanon obviously took care of their terrorists and disarmed them, and this is the war a disarmed terrorist group could wage. I'd hate to see what you'd consider to be an armed terrorist group.
 

Aisengard

Golden Member
Feb 25, 2005
1,558
0
76
I posted a new thread about it, because it's a different topic, but I wonder what these people blaming Israel for everything thought of the thousands upon thousands of Afghan deaths caused by American bombing, when they were trying to wipe out the Taliban?
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
Originally posted by: jimkyser
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: BBond
Bierut is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Sidon is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. The road to Damascus is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Bierut Airport is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Lebanon's ports are NOT controlled by Hezbollah.

Are you saying that there is no Hezbollah presence in these areas that are targetted? Anyways, if Lebanon allowed Hezbollah to fester in the country and gain significant power and made no steps to reign them in, then they should expect the consequences.

I'm not sure if Israel is actively targetting civilians at all.

Israel has targetted cities where the Lebonese Christians are in control, so I really doubt there is any Hezbollah presence there.

Thats whats is nice about being in America even fools can express there opinions....hahahaa
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,982
3,318
126
Originally posted by: RabidMongoose
Originally posted by: BBond
Bierut is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Sidon is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. The road to Damascus is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Bierut Airport is NOT controlled by Hezbollah. Lebanon's ports are NOT controlled by Hezbollah.

Are you saying that there is no Hezbollah presence in these areas that are targetted? Anyways, if Lebanon allowed Hezbollah to fester in the country and gain significant power and made no steps to reign them in, then they should expect the consequences.

I'm not sure if Israel is actively targetting civilians at all.

actually whats he is saying is he doesn`t have a clue what he is talking about!!

Other than hating Israel.......pathetic isn`t it!!

No clue yet he think therefore he must have a clue..lol
 

splaz

Junior Member
Jul 2, 2006
3
0
0

Lebanon had 6 years to stop their people from waging war. You mention a small raid on Israel, but since then they've fired hundreds of rockets. Does that sound like a terrorist group that was being disarmed and dealt with by its government?

How do you know the Lebanese government was capable of disarming and dealing with Hezballoh ?

If Hezballoh is indeed as firmly planted in Lebanon as some are saying then that is an extremely difficult situation for moderates.

Okay so you?re right, Lebanon obviously took care of their terrorists and disarmed them, and this is the war a disarmed terrorist group could wage. I'd hate to see what you'd consider to be an armed terrorist group.

Did I ever say they were disarmed... ?

I merely said Israel has been heavy handed and have only helped escalate hostilities with their reaction.

I think they're justifited in doing something about it but bombing the crap out of Lebanon isn't the solution.
 
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