Israelis shot an Armenian Monk, attack Christians in Bethlehem

[etech]

AmusedOne
"ALL they took from Egypt was the Gaza strip, giving Egypt back the entire Sinai."

I thought the Gaza strip was supposed to belong to the Palestinians, do you mean that Egypt was occupying Palestinian?s land? Were the Palestinians sending suicide bombers into Egypt at that time also?


I find it humerous that some keep trying to lay the blame on Sharon. He has been in office for only a short time. Arafat has been leading the Palestinians since when, 1967?. Now who has had the time to try and find a peaceful solution?

 

[DDCSpeed]

Here is my perception. I am neither Jewish or a Palestinian.

This problem between the two has been ongoing for many many years but this is first time, one side has made it official. As we learned in history classes, a nation cannot go to war without any "excuse" or justification. I believe Sharon has used the term "terrorists" to categorize Palestinians as his excuse to attack Palestinians neighbor. I believe that Sharon has found it a very good time using the term "terrorists" to classify Palestinians and very easy to conquer his neighbor because they do not have the most modern weapons.

As for this incident, if it is true that an Israeli attacked innocent people. The action will be justified later somehow. Generally, people will become upset that killings are taken place in a church. It shows just how ruthless the soldiers are disrespecting a religion. This just reminds me of the scene from "The Patriots" when the English burned the Americans inside the church. Yes, there is always mistakes made in wars but there is always a price for it later. Especially, the whole world is watching. However, our information is not as complete as the people in Politics so our judgement may be based on what the news tell us.

So far, the Israeli has been more aggressive and appears to be blood thirsty. Whether the cause is justified or not, they did kill more people than the so called "terrorists" they are trying to find. Remember, these are the different "terrorists" than the ones we AMERICANS (The Al-Quida Terrorists).

 

[Red Dawn]

<< I repeat for the umpteenth time, there are NOT two wrongs here. >>

Hery you can repeat it until you are blue in the face, it still doesn't mean that you are right.. at least from my perspective.

 

[Amused]

<< AmusedOne
"ALL they took from Egypt was the Gaza strip, giving Egypt back the entire Sinai."

I thought the Gaza strip was supposed to belong to the Palestinians, do you mean that Egypt was occupying Palestinian?s land? Were the Palestinians sending suicide bombers into Egypt at that time also?


I find it humerous that some keep trying to lay the blame on Sharon. He has been in office for only a short time. Arafat has been leading the Palestinians since when, 1967?. Now who has had the time to try and find a peaceful solution? >>



The Gaza Strip came under Egyptian rule after the 1948 war. And the West Bank was to be under Jordanian rule.

After the 1967 war, Israel occupied both. The so-called "Palestinian" Arabs lost most of their land claims and right to self rule after the 1948 war.

Here are some maps showing the area before, during and after 1948

 

[Amused]

<<

<< I repeat for the umpteenth time, there are NOT two wrongs here. >>

Hery you can repeat it until you are blue in the face, it still doesn't mean that you are right.. at least from my perspective. >>



So let me get this right, Red. A people and collection of countries can vow the total annihilation of another, attack them repeatedly, and the victim is wrong?

 

[Red Dawn]

<< So let me get this right, Red. A people and collection of countries can vow the total annihilation of another, attack them repeatedly, and the victim is wrong? >>

If they forget their humanity and their recent history and commit atrocities themselves then yes. Obviously there are varying degrees of culpability regarding the current situation but the Israeli's are far from innocent.

 

[Amused]

<<

<< So let me get this right, Red. A people and collection of countries can vow the total annihilation of another, attack them repeatedly, and the victim is wrong? >>

If they forget their humanity and their recent history and commit atrocities themselves then yes. Obviously there are varying degrees of culpability regarding the current situation but the Israeli's are far from innocent. >>



I've never claimed Israel has not made mistakes. But they are mistakes you can hardly blame them for, for a people who have been under siege for 50+ years. No matter what they've done, or haven't done they've been attacked for it. There are bound to be mistakes made and a bit of zealous behavior.

To be honest, I would have taken a much harder stance directly after the 48 or 67 war. I think Israel's biggest fault is letting this continue so long. If anything, that points to a hell of a lot more humanity and patience than the US ever would have had.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< To be honest, I would have taken a much harder stance directly after the 48 or 67 war. I think Israel's biggest fault is letting this continue so long. If anything, that points to a hell of a lot more humanity and patience than the US ever would have had. >>

The difference is we would have kicked their ass then help them become one of the top ten economic powers in the world

I think where the Israeli's screwed up is annexing territory won in the 67 war.That was an extremely provactive action by the Israeli's which only rubbed salt in the wound. In modern times the US never has annexed any of our defeated enemies territory. In fact my sarcastic comment above isn't that far from the truth. The Isaraeli's were gven Palistine by the UN, there wasn't any need to settle the West Bank or the Golan Hieghts. Jeruselum isn't theirs and laying claims to it for religious isn't valid. Hell what good is it to them to have at such a high cost in lives?

 

[Amused]

<<

<< To be honest, I would have taken a much harder stance directly after the 48 or 67 war. I think Israel's biggest fault is letting this continue so long. If anything, that points to a hell of a lot more humanity and patience than the US ever would have had. >>

The difference is we would have kicked their ass then help them become one of the top ten economic powers in the world

I think where the Israeli's screwed up is annexing territory won in the 67 war.That was an extremely provactive action by the Israeli's which only rubbed salt in the wound. In modern times the US never has annexed any of our defeated enemies territory. In fact my sarcastic comment above isn't that far from the truth. The Isaraeli's were gven Palistine by the UN, there wasn't any need to settle the West Bank or the Golan Hieghts. Jeruselum isn't theirs and laying claims to it for religious isn't valid. Hell what good is it to them to have at such a high cost in lives? >>



The problem was, the West Bank was being used to launch terrorist attacks financed by Jordan, plus it was used to launch Jordan's attack in both '48 and '67. Little did Israel know at the time that occupying it wouldn't stop the terrorism, but it did stop Jordan.

As for the Golan Heights, who can blame them? For more than a decade the Golan was used as a launching pad for mortar and artillery attacks on Israeli citizens. When your neighbor is constantly terrorizing and attacking you, the LAST thing you want is for him to be sitting on a hill looking down at you. Of all the land they took, I believe the Golan Heights was beyond justifiable.

And trust me, if the US were put in Israel's position, we'd own half the middle east by now. The only reason we've never taken land and permanently occupied it in modern times, is because we did that with all the land we could before modern times. If Canada were to start acting towards us like the Arabs have acted towards Israel, you can bet we'd own it long before 50+ years of this crap.

 

[Texmaster]

I thought it was very interesting that after a briefing on Jordan Powell decides to not only meet with Jordan's King but Seria's (sp) leaders as well.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< The problem was, the West Bank was being used to launch terrorist attacks financed by Jordan, plus it was used to launch Jordan's attack in both '48 and '67. Little did Israel know at the time that occupying it wouldn't stop the terrorism, but it did stop Jordan.....The problem was, the West Bank was being used to launch terrorist attacks financed by Jordan, plus it was used to launch Jordan's attack in both '48 and '67. Little did Israel know at the time that occupying it wouldn't stop the terrorism, but it did stop Jordan.

As for the Golan Heights, who can blame them? For more than a decade the Golan was used as a launching pad for mortar and artillery attacks on Israeli citizens.. >>



So who was the Rocket Scientist who came to the conclusion putting Settlements there would ease the situation?

Ariel Sharon "Hey Golda, I have a great Idea"

Golda Mier "What's that Ariel?"

Ariel Sharon "You know the Golan Hieghts and the West Bank... the places where they launched terrorist attacks on us? Let's put Israeli Settlements there!!"

Golda Mier "Oy Gavult Ariel, you are such a mashugana!"

A buffered zone or a Demilitarized zone yes but settlements? That was asking for it.

 

[WarCon]

I have read this whole thread and am truly amazed. I must really have some right-wing views. This long conflict between two cultures (if it was about land then I might feel differently) use to be very low key (relatively). It use to be just the "terrorists" (usually with the full support of Arafat, if you listen to palestinian radio after the attacks, he is heard often praising the martyrs for their sacrifice for the cause) blowing themselves up and killing Isreali civilians.

I have heard a ton of "I know this is bad but......" which from my debate experience is simply used to lead credence to the arguement that follows, but is seldom believed by the individual making the statement). I am sorry I feel very little sympathy for someone who will say "I will find out who is responsible and stop these attacks" and 30 minutes later be praising the individual that did it on public radio. I think there is a term for that, LIAR.

Isreal has just been doing very little until the last few years, mainly because we American's have asked them to refrain, (probably mostly out of self-serving interests in oil I would guess) and to seek peace. I believe it was Saddam who was lobbing rockets (poison gas threats - sounds too much like Hitler and his friends) into Isreal (not Saudi Arabia or other places we American's were at and we were the ones dropping bombs on him), yet at our bequest Isreal withheld any retaliation.

I am shocked it took til now to scare Isreal into fighting for its life against our requests to not retaliate (whose side are we really on?). Maybe the horrific event that took place on 9/11 in our country gave a little look into the world your average Isreali has been facing since most of them have been around (that feeling of not being safe even going to work or play). I just wonder how we can feel self righteous in our attack on Afghanistan and not understand how your average Isreali citizen feels everyday. Except we at least had our most loyal allies support, Isreali doesn't even have that now.

I truly believe if Arafat had a nuclear weapon or biological weapon, it would of been used by now. It has seemed really plain (obvious, not requiring more than a simple thought) that Arafat and those he represents have no desire for peace. When to the shock of many in Isreal and other countries, Barak conceded to almost every request in the peace accord (no matter how much jeopardy it put his own people in), and to everyone's shock Arafat turned it down. I don't even think he (Arafat) gave an even semi-legitimate answer as to why not. I do remember the look on his face, as he was leaving the peace accords though. It was satisfaction, not resignation as a true diplomat would of been showing.

I personally think any atrocity commited on either side is wrong, but I think the difference is that one side plans for it on a regular basis and the other has simply become emotionally involved and is doing wrong. I am sure the world will be screaming for the sniper that shot the "innocents" head soon enough, but since the suicide bombers are already dead its easy enough not to pursue justice in their case. (Except I always thought those that ordered killings were as guilty as those performing them)

I am pro-Isreal for several reasons. They are our allies (at least they behave that way), and other than a few misdeeds done by individuals they have done little or nothing we wouldn't have. And those individuals are probably pretty emotionally involved, I mean if I was watching TV Christmas day and found out some anti-Christmas group had walked into a large families celebration and detonated a bomb, wounding and killing innocents I would be furious and looking for revenge myself). I think Isreal has shown real restraint.

Besides if the world(media included) has no bias against Isreal, then why do they receive world headlines (and unveiled contempt) every time they do something wrong. I believe there have been some pretty horrible things going on in other countries and unless we (America) are involved the media doesn't run the story. Come on people, if your looking for bias PLEASE OPEN YOUR EYES FIRST.

Sorry for the rant, its been building for a while and the outright contempt the media has generated for Isreal in our country has truly made me fear for our future. I once read a science fiction book that placed a reporter as a crux that had the ability to shape the future by how he reported the stories. I thought it was a really good book, but discounted its premise. I don't anymore and realize that at least in our country and many other "free" countries, that we are sheep and the media is our shepard.

 

[Amused]

<<

<< The problem was, the West Bank was being used to launch terrorist attacks financed by Jordan, plus it was used to launch Jordan's attack in both '48 and '67. Little did Israel know at the time that occupying it wouldn't stop the terrorism, but it did stop Jordan.....The problem was, the West Bank was being used to launch terrorist attacks financed by Jordan, plus it was used to launch Jordan's attack in both '48 and '67. Little did Israel know at the time that occupying it wouldn't stop the terrorism, but it did stop Jordan.

As for the Golan Heights, who can blame them? For more than a decade the Golan was used as a launching pad for mortar and artillery attacks on Israeli citizens.. >>



So who was the Rocket Scientist who came to the conclusion putting Settlements there would ease the situation?

Ariel Sharon "Hey Golda, I have a great Idea"

Golda Mier "What's that Ariel?"

Ariel Sharon "You know the Golan Hieghts and the West Bank... the places where they launched terrorist attacks on us? Let's put Israeli Settlements there!!"

Golda Mier "Oy Gavult Ariel, you are such a mashugana!"

A buffered zone or a Demilitarized zone yes but settlements? That was asking for it. >>



Asking for what? Do you say the same thing when black people have crosses burning on their lawns after moving into white neighborhoods? The Arab attitude towards the settlements is no different. They simply cannot stand having Jews living around them.

And after 1967, All those land have been more than earned by the Israelis in blood. The fact that they did not simply deport any and all Arabs who refused Israeli citizenship shows more patience than I'd have ever had... and I believe you would have had too.

Yes, I agree they should have deported people who would not have lived in peace with Israel, and created large buffer zones. However, the Israelis had the specter of Nazism hanging over their heads, and have tried to no avail to be as easy as possible on these folks and keep their holy lands open and availible to them out of respect. It looks now like those days are over, and in my mind that's a position LONG overdue.

My position shocks most people who have not studied the last 50 odd years of history. However, once you know the facts, you can't objectivly reach any other position.

 

[Amused]

Very well said, WarCon.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< My position shocks most people who have not studied the last 50 odd years of history. However, once you know the facts, you can't objectivly reach any other position. >>

Studied, as in Majored in Middle Eastern Geo Political History? No, I haven?t. However, I remember the 1967 War. I remember reading about it and watching it on TV. I also remember the 73 Yom Kippur War. I remember reading about an Israeli Fighter Plane shooting an American Spy Ship all to pieces killing some crewmen, I remember the Munich Olympics and the Massacre of Israeli Athletes, I remember the El Al Plane being Hijacked to Uganda (I believe the last El Al Plane to be hijacked) when Idi Amin was Dictator of that country and I remember the Commando Mission undertaken by the IDF to free the Hostages, I remember the Achille Laurel (SP), I remember the Massacres in the Palestinian Refugee Camps by the Israeli controlled Christian Phalange Militia, I remember the Camp David Agreement, I remember Anwar Sadat Flying to Israel to meet with "The Old Women" Golda Mier and him being assassinated because he sought peace, I remember The Jordanian Army Kicking the sh!t out of the Palestinians, I remember Marine Barracks getting blown up in Beirut, I remember Israeli Warplanes taking out a Nuclear Reactor in Iraq, I remember the Mossad assassinating a Scandinavian Minister/Politician, I remember Israel being attacked with SCUD Missiles from Iraq and how the Patriot Missile defense system we gave them failed miserably and I rmeber Yatzik Rabin beihng assasinated by a feloow Israeli because he sought peace with the Palestinians.

I might not be as well read as you are about the Israeli/Arab/Palestinian Conflict but I am not ignorant of it either.The way I see it you areemotionally wraped up in this situation where as I'm looking at it from what I'd like to think is an objective viewpoint. Not once have I said that I supported the Terrorist activities of the Suicide Bombers and I also have stated on many occasiuons that I don't trust or think much of Yasar Arafat (nor do I think much of Ariel Sharon either)



<< Very well said, WarCon. >>

For a rant although I can understand why you feel as you do.

 

[Amused]

<<

<< My position shocks most people who have not studied the last 50 odd years of history. However, once you know the facts, you can't objectivly reach any other position. >>

Studied, as in Majored in Middle Eastern Geo Political History? No, I haven?t. However, I remember the 1967 War. I remember reading about it and watching it on TV. I also remember the 73 Yom Kippur War. I remember reading about an Israeli Fighter Plane shooting an American Spy Ship all to pieces killing some crewmen, I remember the Munich Olympics and the Massacre of Israeli Athletes, I remember the El Al Plane being Hijacked to Uganda (I believe the last El Al Plane to be hijacked) when Idi Amin was Dictator of that country and I remember the Commando Mission undertaken by the IDF to free the Hostages, I remember the Achille Laurel (SP), I remember the Massacres in the Palestinian Refugee Camps by the Israeli controlled Christian Phalange Militia, I remember the Camp David Agreement, I remember Anwar Sadat Flying to Israel to meet with "The Old Women" Golda Mier and him being assassinated because he sought peace, I remember The Jordanian Army Kicking the sh!t out of the Palestinians, I remember Marine Barracks getting blown up in Beirut, I remember Israeli Warplanes taking out a Nuclear Reactor in Iraq, I remember the Mossad assassinating a Scandinavian Minister/Politician, I remember Israel being attacked with SCUD Missiles from Iraq and how the Patriot Missile defense system we gave them failed miserably and I rmeber Yatzik Rabin beihng assasinated by a feloow Israeli because he sought peace with the Palestinians.

I might not be as well read as you are about the Israeli/Arab/Palestinian Conflict but I am not ignorant of it either.The way I see it you areemotionally wraped up in this situation where as I'm looking at it from what I'd like to think is an objective viewpoint. Not once have I said that I supported the Terrorist activities of the Suicide Bombers and I also have stated on many occasiuons that I don't trust or think much of Yasar Arafat (nor do I think much of Ariel Sharon either)



<< Very well said, WarCon. >>

For a rant although I can understand why you feel as you do. >>



My emotion comes from the outrage I've come to feel after studying this. I actually started out with the assumtion that the Israelis were being oppressive, and the Palestinians were the victims.

Yes, there have been Israeli zealots and mistakes made by Israelis. This I do not deny, and it's sad, but understandable after so many years of being under seige. However, in the broad picture, their sole intent has only been to be left alone. The same cannot be said of the Arab nations or the Palestinian Arabs.

As for Sharon, he's a military man and a hard liner. While his position is decades too late, it IS the one that should have been taken by at least 1967. He is a little rough around the edges and undiplomatic, but diplomacy has gotten Israel nothing for 50 years. Why should anyone expect it to work now?

By the way, if you typed that time line from memory, it's very impressive. I apologize if I assumed ignorance on your part.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< By the way, if you typed that time line from memory, it's very impressive. I apologize if I assumed ignorance on your part. >>

Haha.. if it is remotely in chronological order then it is by coincidence, as I wasn't trying to list it that way.



<< My emotion comes from the outrage I've come to feel after studying this. I actually started out with the assumption that the Israelis were being oppressive, and the Palestinians were the victims. >>

They are but the Terrorists aren't. They also have been oppressed by their Arab brethren as much as they have been by the Israeli's. They also aren't a very sympathetic victim, Dancing in the streets after the WTC Attack and they spoken hatred of Israel being the most obvious reason why. However, I believe our interest in the Area should have more to do with helping create a stable and lasting peace than trying to pin the blame for it on a group or groups, as there is plenty of blame to go around. One of the things that the Israeli's will have to concede if they want any resemblance to Security and peace is to withdraw back to the Pre 1967 borders and shut down all Settlements on the West Bank and the Golan Heights. Of course, when you say there are Arabs who wont be satisfied until the Israeli's are driven out of Palestine you are correct. However, with the establishment of a Palestinian State with Jerusalem as it's capital, the support they enjoy, they being Hamas, Hezbollah, etc, from the vast majority of the Palestinians Population will wane which will go a long ways to help eradicate them altogether.

In addition, the other Arab States have offered to formally recognize Israel and has said they would do what they could to help Israel achieve the security that they've been seeking. Granted, it looks nice on paper and actions speak louder than words, still the fact is that this has never been offered up to the Israeli's before from their Arab Neighbors makes it historic and possibly the end of the horror and misery suffered on both sides. Israel is going to have to compromise but it's not as if they are giving something that was there's to start with.

This is it from me tonight; I?m having a hard time keeping my eyes open.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

What do you think would happen if Israel quietly pulled out of the occupied terrorities and released an official apology (irrelevant of whether one feels it is warranted or not) to all Arab peoples and nations. What if they then pledged to rebuild all that was destroyed? They have the capacity to do this. What would happen if the wall of hatred the Arab nations have been leaning on were to be removed? Just a thought, that would strike me as a valient thing to do.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< What do you think would happen if Israel quietly pulled out of the occupied terrorities and released an official apology (irrelevant of whether one feels it is warranted or not) to all Arab peoples and nations. >>

Well first of all every single Arab in that Region probably would be in shock(over the apology) I think you are being rather ideaslistic as there is to much bad history on both sides, plus Amusedone is tcorrect when he says that the Israeli's were the ones who were victimized the most making any chance of an apology by Israel highly unlikely. A mutual agreement to cease all hostilities would be all that we can hope top expect. Maybe 50 years of peace might lead to an apology from both sides when all the main anatagonists and their followers are either dead or are old and insignificant.

Of course withdrawal from the Occupied terrirtoies and a UN Setup Buffer zone will need to be put in place to try and stifle those who only want war , both on the Arab and the Israeli sides.

 

[Amused]

<<

<< By the way, if you typed that time line from memory, it's very impressive. I apologize if I assumed ignorance on your part. >>

Haha.. if it is remotely in chronological order then it is by coincidence, as I wasn't trying to list it that way.



<< My emotion comes from the outrage I've come to feel after studying this. I actually started out with the assumption that the Israelis were being oppressive, and the Palestinians were the victims. >>

They are but the Terrorists aren't. They also have been oppressed by their Arab brethren as much as they have been by the Israeli's. They also aren't a very sympathetic victim, Dancing in the streets after the WTC Attack and they spoken hatred of Israel being the most obvious reason why. However, I believe our interest in the Area should have more to do with helping create a stable and lasting peace than trying to pin the blame for it on a group or groups, as there is plenty of blame to go around. One of the things that the Israeli's will have to concede if they want any resemblance to Security and peace is to withdraw back to the Pre 1967 borders and shut down all Settlements on the West Bank and the Golan Heights. Of course, when you say there are Arabs who wont be satisfied until the Israeli's are driven out of Palestine you are correct. However, with the establishment of a Palestinian State with Jerusalem as it's capital, the support they enjoy, they being Hamas, Hezbollah, etc, from the vast majority of the Palestinians Population will wane which will go a long ways to help eradicate them altogether.

In addition, the other Arab States have offered to formally recognize Israel and has said they would do what they could to help Israel achieve the security that they've been seeking. Granted, it looks nice on paper and actions speak louder than words, still the fact is that this has never been offered up to the Israeli's before from their Arab Neighbors makes it historic and possibly the end of the horror and misery suffered on both sides. Israel is going to have to compromise but it's not as if they are giving something that was there's to start with.

This is it from me tonight; I?m having a hard time keeping my eyes open. >>



I'm sorry, but after Arab and Palestinian actions, I see nothing that makes them deserve Jerusalem. In fact, I think their pre-'67 actions alone lost them the right to have that city.

And as long as Israel exists, Hamas and Hezbollah will be well funded and well supported. Arafat turned down the best deal ever offered the region's Arabs, because it did not eradicate Israel completely. I highly doubt popular opinion has changed much since then.

 

[Amused]

<< What do you think would happen if Israel quietly pulled out of the occupied terrorities and released an official apology (irrelevant of whether one feels it is warranted or not) to all Arab peoples and nations. What if they then pledged to rebuild all that was destroyed? They have the capacity to do this. What would happen if the wall of hatred the Arab nations have been leaning on were to be removed? Just a thought, that would strike me as a valient thing to do. >>



Why should Israel apologize? They're the ones who have been under seige for 50+ years. How about this: The Arabs apologize for 50+ years of aggression, agree to share administration of Jerusalem (This one is a BIG gift only out of respect for their religion), and stop any and all terrorist activities. This must include mass arrests of terrorists (has never happened yet) and an enforced ban on funding them. AND start a mass education campaign designed to end hundreds of years of institutionalized hate aginst Jews and institutional calls for the complete eradication of Jews.

There, what do you think of that?

Oh, and one more thing... an apology from the Middle East countries that backed Hitler during WWII.

 

[Amused]

Hey Red,

on a side bar, you gotta admit that the rescue of the Israeli hostages at Entebbe (The Idi Amin hijacking incident) was a master stroke. Do you remember the details of that one?

 

[etech]

<< What do you think would happen if Israel quietly pulled out of the occupied terrorities and released an official apology (irrelevant of whether one feels it is warranted or not) to all Arab peoples and nations. What if they then pledged to rebuild all that was destroyed? They have the capacity to do this. What would happen if the wall of hatred the Arab nations have been leaning on were to be removed? Just a thought, that would strike me as a valient thing to do. >>



It's a different culture there. That would be seen as a sign of complete weakness. It would give hope and strength to the ones whose only goal is to destroy Israel.

 

[Red Dawn]

<< I'm sorry, but after Arab and Palestinian actions, I see nothing that makes them deserve Jerusalem. In fact, I think their pre-'67 actions alone lost them the right to have that city. >>

So what's your solution, continued bloodshed?

 

[Amused]

<<

<< I'm sorry, but after Arab and Palestinian actions, I see nothing that makes them deserve Jerusalem. In fact, I think their pre-'67 actions alone lost them the right to have that city. >>

So what's your solution, continued bloodshed? >>



No, they give up on Jerusalem. If THEY choose to continue the bloodshed, Isreal should simply push them out and close their borders. They have no right to it. A peace treaty was offered that gave the Palestinians EVERYTHING they claim they wanted on the diplomatic front (read: the side they show the world) and this included jointly adminstrating Jerusalem with Israel. Arafat flatly turned it down. After 50 years of aggression, the Arabs don't even deserve that much. Frankly I'm shocked and confounded why the Israelis have been as patient as they have been.

It's too damn late. They've blown every chance they've been given.