Israelis shot an Armenian Monk, attack Christians in Bethlehem

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etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
No direct comparison was made, just making a point about the Arab sellouts.

See definition below.

You can't get around the fact that some rich aristocrats of the Ottoman empire just went in and stuck a flag on land that was already being used, just because they had the power to, and then turned around and sold it to the Zionists as "official paper holding" absentee landlords. How would you feel?

I would be pissed at the rich aristocrats that played dirty and took my land, not the people that bought it under the laws of the land at that time.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
So the Zionists, knowingly buying unethically acquired land, with the intention of "expropriation and the removal" of the peasants who have been inhabiting that land for some time (namely, Arabs), are beyond reproach?
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Are you trying to say that buying land is now a crime?

As for how it was acquired. The Spanish took land from the Indians in California. Are you ever going to buy a house there. Are you going to refuse to buy land anywhere in the U.S. because of how the land was acquired?

You are having to stretch it pretty thin to try and pin something on the Jews aren't you?
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
What? Huh? Pinning something on who? When has this been about Jews? They've been consistantly getting the shafted throughout history, Zionism is understandable, but that still does not make it acceptable. This is about the Palestineans having a legitimate grievance.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
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This is about the Palestineans having a legitimate grievance.


Exactly what do you think is the Palestinians legitimate grievance?
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
Being muscled out of their land by British (originally) and now US backed Israel. They are second-class citizens in Israel territory, the purpose of the JNF is to buy up interests in the region and make them exclusively Jewish.
 

Riprorin

Banned
Apr 25, 2000
9,634
0
0
Arabs moved to this area in large numbers only after Jews settled and invested in this area in the mid - late 1800's. Prior to this it was a barren wasteland. If it weren't for the Jew creating infrustructure, industry and economic opprtunity in this region, it would probably be the same today.

The only grievance the "Palestinians" should have is with their Arab brethern who have a vested interest in keeping them in refugee camps for use as fodder against the Israeli's.

 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
Wouldn't be completely sure of that.

Recent archeological digs have provided evidence that Jerusalem was a big and fortified city already in 1800 BCE...Findings show that the sophisticated water system heretofor attributed to the conquering Israelites pre-dated them by eight centuries and was even more sophisticated than imagined...Dr. Ronny Reich, who directed the excavation along with Eli Shuikrun, said the entire system was built as a single complex by Canaanites in the Middle Bronze Period, around 1800 BCE." The Jewish Bulletin, July 31st, 1998.

"Palestine became a predominately Arab and Islamic country by the end of the seventh century. Almost immediately thereafter its boundaries and its characteristics - including its name in Arabic, Filastin - became known to the entire Islamic world, as much for its fertility and beauty as for its religious significance...In 1516, Palestine became a province of the Ottoman Empire, but this made it no less fertile, no less Arab or Islamic...Sixty percent of the population was in agriculture; the balance was divided between townspeople and a relatively small nomadic group. All these people believed themselves to belong in a land called Palestine, despite their feelings that they were also members of a large Arab nation...Despite the steady arrival in Palestine of Jewish colonists after 1882, it is important to realize that not until the few weeks immediately preceding the establishment of Israel in the spring of 1948 was there ever anything other than a huge Arab majority. For example, the Jewish population in 1931 was 174,606 against a total of 1,033,314." Edward Said, "The Question of Palestine."




 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
EngineNr9

Too chicken to post the link where you got that 'information'?



History versus Arab claims to ?homeland?

By Dr. M.E RITCHIE

(E. M. O?CONNOR- NOM DE PLUME)

When Yasser Arafat appeared with his gun at the General Assembly of the United Nations on Nov. 13, 1973, he demanded that Israel be destroyed.

He claimed that Israel was the "nation homeland" of the "Palestinian people" from which the majority had been driven by "Zionist invaders" who "usurped the properties of Palestinian Arabs" by coming to Palestine since 1881.

When one searches for proof that a "Palestinian people" lived in a separate state called Palestine in 1881, one finds that in 1881 Palestine was only part of Turkey and had no separate existence at all.

The Encyclopedia Britannica (1972) notes that Palestine was under Turkish domination for 400 years between August 24, 1516 and its capture by British forces between December 1917 and October 1918. It never existed as a separate state ruled by its own people, except when the people were Jewish.

Are Arafat?s other statements also wrong?

What about Arafat?s repeated denunciations of Jewish immigrants since 1881 as having "usurped the properties of Palestine Arabs" by their immigration since 1881, and having contributed nothing to the country? Arafat claimed:

"The Jewish invasion of Palestine began in 1881?Palestine was then a verdant area, inhabited mainly by an Arab people in the course of building up its life and dynamically enriching its indigenous culture."

The "invasion" is the excuse Arafat uses for bombings, skyjackings and murder almost a hundred years later.

But what was this part of Turkey like when Jewish immigrants came there in 1881?

Not the way Arafat describes it.

Palestine was described by travelers as a desolate empty, ruined land. Thomas Shaw (1738), Volney (1783, 1784, 1785), James Finn (1878), Alphonse de Lamartine (1835) and Mark Twain (1867) all wrote about it with horror.

Volney described the "ruined" and desolate" country and estimated the total population of the much larger area he saw as no more than 50,000 to 100,000.

Lamartine wrote:

"Outside the gates of Jerusalem we saw Indeed no living object, heard no living object, heard no living sound, we found the same void the same silence?as we should have expected before the entombed gates of Pompeli or Herculaneam?a complete eternal silence reigns in the town, on the highways in the country?the tomb of a whole people."(Recollections of the East, vol. 1, pp. 268, 308, London, 1815).

Mark Twain, in his book "The Innocents Abroad," after a trip in 1867, described

Palestine as:

"Desolate country whose soil is rich enough but is given over wholly to weeds?a silent mournful expanse?A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action. We reached Tabor safely?We never saw a human being on the whole route?

"There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country?

"Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies. Palestine is desolate and unlovely."

George Adam Smith, a geographer who visited Palestine in 1830 before the changes made by European Immigrants, described the country as a mixture of barren, treeless land, and malarial weed-grown swamps.

Jews who bought this worthless land were called "children of death" because many of them did not survive. Now, almost a hundred years later, Arafat labels these immigrants "invaders" and demands the right to take over their land.

Did these immigrants destroy the "indigenous culture" Arafat described as existing until European Jews came as immigrants? Or did they improve matters?

The old travelers and geographers found no indigenous culture. They told of isolated villages, each an enemy of the next, of Arab marauders, of incredible poverty, disease and beggars.

Mark Twain described mudhouses five to seven feet high, covered with discs of camel dung for fuel because there was no timber of any consequence in Palestine. Tiberias was described in appalling terms by Twain.

Smith called it a "poor fevered place of less than 5,000 inhabitants." Cunningham Geikie wrote of Galilee that "Tiberias and the wretched Magdala are the only inhabited places on the whole lake, although in the day of our Lord nine towns and many villages, all populous were found on its shores or on the hillsides behind."

Jerusalem was described by Mark Twain as having "rags, wretchedness, poverty and dirt?. Lepers, cripples, the blind, and the idiotic, assail you on every hand, and they know but one word of but one language apparently?the eternal "bucksheesh."

All travelers described Arabs and Jews living in these dreadful conditions. None saw a people called "Palestinians" who are said by Arafat to have lived in a verdant Palestine with an ancient culture.

Records such as the 1920 British Foreign Office Peace Handbooks (Mohammedan History) show that Arabs as well as Jews benefited from immigration of these European Jews to that desolate land.

All travelers made clear that Jews continued to live in the land. There is no suggestion that Jews ever abandoned their claim to it. It was this continuity of Jewish presence in their land that Reverend James Parkes, writing in "Whose Land?" considered to be the real title deeds of Jews to their land.

For Canada, however, the role of immigrants is doubly important. Like Israel, Canada was built by the work of immigrants. Unlike Israel, immigrants to Canada did not belong to the original inhabitants. If immigrants acquire no rights from work in a land, then 20 million Canadians are in danger. If Israel is threatened, Canada is even more in danger.

 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
The souces were mentioned, but I thought you guys would figure out that I got it from cactus48, the site that was brought up before. No need to be antagonistic.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
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I don't know why you would assume that. I looked through the catus site and dismissed it a a reliable place to acquire information.

edit
KthxBye
Tell me in detail exactly why I should give a rats a** what you think. Either contribute to the discussion or STFU. Thank you for your time.


 

RONType1

Golden Member
Feb 21, 2000
1,150
0
0


<< Arabs moved to this area in large numbers only after Jews settled and invested in this area in the mid - late 1800's. Prior to this it was a barren wasteland. If it weren't for the Jew creating infrustructure, industry and economic opprtunity in this region, it would probably be the same today.

The only grievance the "Palestinians" should have is with their Arab brethern who have a vested interest in keeping them in refugee camps for use as fodder against the Israeli's.
>>



uhm, i don't think so! i'm sorry, do you have access to the census reports?


People just gotta stop fighting, israel has got to respect the damn borders (as agreed to in treaty) and the palestinians have got to stop the suicide bombings... the only thing i have a problem with is this whole "Support the Solidarity of Israel" crap. What a bunch of BS, pull the troops out, stop the damn settlements and continued immigration and we'll see how it goes. I don't know how you'd feel with armed troops controlling all the roads and highways in your town...

The whole support for israel crap? sure i acknowledge them as a country and their sovereignty, BUT masking the violence under a veil of solidarity is BS. Dammit, the violence has got to stop.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
I looked through the catus site and dismissed it a a reliable place to acquire information.

On what criteria I would ask?
 

KthxBye

Senior member
Aug 7, 2001
404
0
71


<< Tell me in detail exactly why I should give a rats a** what you think. Either contribute to the discussion or STFU. Thank you for your time. >>


Very well. It is my humble opinion that a an unbiased individual who understands both the root of the conflict and individual incidents, from the end of WWI to present day, would be unable to pick a side. Most of this thread has been explanations for why Israel/All arab nations are to blame for the last few rounds of killings, and my line of rolling eyes indicated my sentiment that these posts were based on one-sided information, or personal prejudice.

P.S: Considering the comparative lengths of our two posts, you telling me to STFU is a larf.
P.P.S: If you need a reason to care what someone else thinks, you are only looking to support your own beliefs.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
It is my humble opinion that a an unbiased individual who understands both the root of the conflict and individual incidents, from the end of WWI to present day, would be unable to pick a side.

Give this man a cookie
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
EngineNr9
"I looked through the catus site and dismissed it a a reliable place to acquire information.

On what criteria I would ask?"

The one sided spin it applies to what facts it presents. Look at how they presented Arabs selling land to Jews and tried to make the Jews as the bad guys. You can spin almost anything that someone does into something that looks bad. It's not that hard and that site does it very well but it is also obvious what they are doing.

KthxBye
"Very well. It is my humble opinion that a an unbiased individual who understands both the root of the conflict and individual incidents, from the end of WWI to present day, would be unable to pick a side. Most of this thread has been explanations for why Israel/All arab nations are to blame for the last few rounds of killings, and my line of rolling eyes indicated my sentiment that these posts were based on one-sided information, or personal prejudice.

P.S: Considering the comparative lengths of our two posts, you telling me to STFU is a larf.
P.P.S: If you need a reason to care what someone else thinks, you are only looking to support your own beliefs.
"

He can speak!

It is my opinion after studying the situation that the Arabs do not want a Jewish state on their land. It is not about individuals but that simple fact that started the conflict and has sustained it for so long.

Your line of rolling eyes only indicated your lack of ability to express yourself. You are doing better, keep it up.
P.S. What's a larf?


Red Dawn
pffffft!

Did someone let the air out of Red?
 

Computergeek1766

Junior Member
Apr 22, 2002
15
0
0
Ahhh... The true nature of the Israeli government. They're as bad as the Palestinians.:|

And before you start screaming anti-Semitism... I'm a Jew.
 

PistachioByAzul

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 1999
5,132
0
71
One further point: being Jewish ourselves, the position we present here is critical of Zionism but is in no way anti-Semitic. We do not believe that the Jews acted worse than any other group might have acted in their situation. The Zionists (who were a distinct minority of the Jewish people until after WWII) had an understandable desire to establish a place where Jews could be masters of their own fate, given the bleak history of Jewish oppression. Especially as the danger to European Jewry crystalized in the late 1930's and after, the actions of the Zionists were propelled by real desperation.

But so were the actions of the Arabs. The mythic "land without people for a people without land" was already home to 700,000 Palestinians in 1919. This is the root of the problem, as we shall see.


The tone throughout all the entire text reflects this. No one is trying to paint the Jews as being bad, the idea is that this is not a simple problem as in right vs. wrong, and treating it as such only exasperates (sp) things.

Zionism is a chauvinistic ideology that has been constantly reinforced by Jewish persecution. Until the Eastern European Jews pervaded it, the "native" middle Eastern Jews lived side by side with the Arab majority in the Palestine area. Zionism is about Jews asserting their "God-given" presence in the region, how well would you expect that to bode with the equally religious Arab population? But the problem goes even beyond a failure to conceptualize partisan relativity, people are incomplete, and they need to assert themselves to get security from someone else's lack thereof, that's the root of all human strife. If you take one side, you're just adding to the momentum.
 
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