Israelis shot an Armenian Monk, attack Christians in Bethlehem

[mrCide]

<snip snip>

I give up.

Plenty of people have already stated the facts about why palestinians are doing what they're doing, and why they feel how they feel, and the general arab mindset as you speakof. It's true. They have thier reasons, and they're valid.

Anyhow. I don't want to make a fool of myself. I apologize for my remarks but I'm sick of people being bias when both sides are wrong.

Have a nice night.

 

[Amused]

<< <snip snip>

I give up.

Plenty of people have already stated the facts about why palestinians are doing what they're doing, and why they feel how they feel, and the general arab mindset as you speakof. It's true. They have thier reasons, and they're valid.

Anyhow. I don't want to make a fool of myself. I apologize for my remarks but I'm sick of people being bias when both sides are wrong.

Have a nice night. >>



How are they valid? From the day Israel was formed, they attacked. This was BEFORE Israel made their way into the "occupied" areas. And they have not given up since. In fact, the ONLY thing that has changed since then and now is the realization that Israel will kick their asses in a conventional war.

Both sides are NOT wrong. Tell me, if you were sitting alone minding your own business, and I walked up to you and hit you on a daily basis, are we "both wrong?"

There IS an aggressor in this conflict, and it IS the Arab nations and Palestinians. From your knee jerk reactions in this thread it's painfully obvious you have no idea what happened between 1947 and 1967, and just WHY Israel occupies those lands.

 

[mrCide]

since you insist.

Why don't you explain what happened?

Here's what I know. There's a country named Palestine. All of a sudden it disappears and becomes Israel. The Palestinian people end up in camps throughout the arab countries.

What they're doing is a REACTION to the Israeli's actions. The media for years have been showing how bad the Palestinians and the arabs are and how barbaric their actions are when infact the destruction and weapons and killings that the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians/arabs are way beyond imagination. One stone from a Palestinian equals destruction of a Palestinan town from the Israelis. Is that acceptable in your opinion? There are facts and then theres what the media says, which is always biased. It's up to you what you want to believe.

 

[Amused]

<< since you insist.

Why don't you explain what happened?

Here's what I know. There's a country named Palestine. All of a sudden it disappears and becomes Israel. The Palestinian people end up in camps throughout the arab countries.

What they're doing is a REACTION to the Israeli's actions. The media for years have been showing how bad the Palestinians and the arabs are and how barbaric their actions are when infact the destruction and weapons and killings that the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians/arabs are way beyond imagination. One stone from a Palestinian equals destruction of a Palestinan town from the Israelis. Is that acceptable in your opinion? There are facts and then theres what the media says, which is always biased. It's up to you what you want to believe. >>



There has NEVER been a country called "Palestine." There is your first mistake.

I now understand why you are acting this way. If I was to look at what is happening only now, I would feel the same way. What you need to do is study the history of the region.

Here's the abridged version:

The region was without a government after the Ottomans and the Brits got through with it. The few Arab residents that lived there considered themselves Syrian.

The countries you see today were drawn by the Brits after they took it from the Turks.

The area now called Israel/Palestine was divided up into two roughly equal areas by the UN. One "Israel" and one Arab sector. Israel formed a government and set about building a nation. The Arabs in the Arab sector never did, and instead joined the surounding Arab nations in an attack against Israel. They lost. They then set about committing acts of terrorism. There was one more war with Egypt in 56, but it's inconsequential to this subject except to show even more Arab aggression.

But '67 is a pivotal year. It was this year that all the surrounding Arab nations amassed their armies on Israel's borders and prepared for a major attack. Israel, outnumbered 4-1 launched a pre-emptive strike in what everyone agrees was a stroke of military genius and beat them back in 6 days. They took a quarter of Egypt, and immediately returned it. What they did not return was the West Bank to Jordan, and the Gaza strip to Egypt. Why? Because these areas were used as prime staging zones for the attack and made Israel extremely vulnerable.

"Palestine" was not ever used by the Arabs in the region to identify themselves until AFTER the 1967 war and they started bleeting about wanting "victim status." Previously they called themselves Syrian, and considered "Palestine" a jewish word.

In all these attacks, the so-called "Palestinians" joined forces with the Arabs. Israel has NEVER been the aggressor here, and has more than earned the right to the land they occupy. The Palestinians and Arab nations have always made it more than clear that their sole objective is to destroy Israel. Israel has always made it clear that their sole objective is to be left alone.

There are many smaller points I've left out that have to do with Israel taking the Golan heights and such, but they did so under the very conditions they took the West Bank and Gaza Strip --- to better defend themselves against regular attacks.

 

[Random Variable]

<< Here's what I know. There's a country named Palestine. All of a sudden it disappears and becomes Israel. The Palestinian people end up in camps throughout the arab countries. >>


If you're going to debate AmusedOne, at least brush up on your history.

 

[etech]

Why were the Palestinians kicked out of Lebanon?

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

<<
Here's what I know. There's a country named Palestine. >>



ROFL!

No wonder.

Such passionate opinions based on WRONG INFORMATION.

You said you didn't want to make a fool of yourself. Too late.

 

[mrCide]

wow what a fool i am...

.. "an area occupied by palestinians".. happy?

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

<< wow what a fool i am...

.. "an area occupied by palestinians".. happy? >>



As AmusedOne posted:

<<"Palestine" was not ever used by the Arabs in the region to identify themselves until AFTER the 1967 war>>

 

[Wedesdo]

I hope that Sharon, Arafat, the leaders of Hamas, and everyone who supports them all die long, horrible deaths.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

<< I hope that Sharon, Arafat, the leaders of Hamas, and everyone who supports them all die long, horrible deaths. >>



I agree with this.

I am admittedly Pro-Israeli. I do not hide my bias.

But even I think Sharon is hell bent on violence and isn't much different than Arafat.

I believe Israel needs to do what needs to be done to protect themselves, but imho they are going about it
in a way that will NOT help thier cause.... it will not stop the bombers (in the long run) and it REALLY HURTS
thier standing in the ever-important international opinion. Not that it's hard to do with the Anti-Israel slant already there.
And, yes, let's be honest it IS there... http://forums.anandtech.com/messageview.cfm?catid=38&threadid=761088

 

[ConantheBarbarian]

Chief Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erakat claimed Wednesday that 500 Palestinians had been killed in Jenin and Nablus alone, but an Israeli government spokesman accused Erakat of "recycling lies" and an IDF spokesman Thursday put the number killed in Jenin at about 100.

The IDF said 28 Israeli soldiers were killed as a result of the operation. Inside Israel, there have been five suicide bombings since the operation began on the evening of March 28. A total of 27 Israelis have died in those incidents, including eight killed Wednesday in a bus bombing near Haifa.

The United Nations said about 3,000 people in the Jenin refugee camp have been left homeless by the fighting. An Israeli government official did not dispute the number, but said many Palestinians had to leave because terrorists had taken over the camp.

 

[ConantheBarbarian]

You guys are missing the point. One side kills the other and the other side retaliates in series of cycles. Please dont forget that all of us will stand forth in front of the All Mighty and we will have to answer for all that we have done in our life time from first day of self consciousness to death.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

<< Please dont forget that all of us will stand forth in front of the All Mighty and we will have to answer for all that we have done in our life time from first day of self consciousness to death. >>



And which 'Almighty' is this?

Allah?
Jesus?
Jeebus?

 

[PistachioByAzul]

The Palestinians refuse to oust or imprison the terrorists

And how would you suggest that they go about stopping the terrorist attacks?

As you have said before Riprorin Palestine is a roughly contrived region. What they need is a solid government, and with that will come the kind of accountability to stabilize the terrorism. Arafat & co are nothing, figureheads, they cannot control the hundreds of terrorist factions, and like anyone else the more they are pushed the more they will push back. There needs to be a clear, positive goal, not just throwing wild blind punches that are doing more damage then actually making things better. Either that or maybe it would be better to just pull out altogether.

On top of that, you guys need a good dousing of "Arab" culture, they are just as much people as anyone else. I see people taking sides essentially because the Jews have paler faces and are more closely related.

 

[etech]

"On top of that, you guys need a good dousing of "Arab" culture, "

I got it, I will support Israel.

I was fairly neutral until I had a few months long discussion with some Arabs. I'll admit a bias towards Israel because of watching the 72 Olympics but it wasn't that strong. After the conversations I have had on their message board and the actions they showed at the end. I'll support Israel.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

<<
On top of that, you guys need a good dousing of "Arab" culture, they are just as much people as anyone else. I see people taking sides essentially because the Jews have paler faces and are more closely related. >>



Errrr..... I would like to nominate you for the Captain Obvious award.

Of course that's why people are taking sides ffs!
That is the very reason people take sides. Israel are our closest allies in the M.E.
because we share much more in terms of ideals and beliefs.

Why are ALL the Arab states taking the Palestinians side? Oh let me guess because
all they just want is peace and justice right?

The things I don't understand is why people find it odd that we are taking sides.
Is that not what having an 'ally' means?

America, because of it's sheer power, is (irrationally) expected to be neutral.
NEWS FLASH! We are not a neutral country. You want neutrality move to Switzerland.

I just love how the 'elite minds' think thier sense of fairness and justice they learned at Berkley(or the like) applies to
world politics and/or conflict. ROFL!!! Ummm no.

For the Palistinians:
The Arab states are biased. (Duh)
France is biased. (History of anti-semitism and HUGE Muslim population, oh and is currently experiencing huge wave of anti-jew violence)
The UN is biased. (Kofi Annan admits it... oh wait he admits the 'appearance of bias' against Israel

)

For Israel:
The United States.

Now the REAL problem the first three have with what's going on is thier sheer inability to apply thier own bias.... they cannot stand to be powerless. But they are.
This is what upsets them the most. Of course thats not the official line. The official line is 'we just want peace'.

The U.S. has the power to apply it's bias. Israel still exists ONLY because of the American bias.
As long as Big Brother America is behind them the Israelis can't be touched.

I am amused to watch people for both sides arguing while claiming no bias.
The worst lies you can tell are the ones you tell yourself.

 

[PistachioByAzul]

Why are ALL the Arab states taking the Palestinians side? Oh let me guess because
all they just want is peace and justice right?

So maybe if we're the "civilized" ones it's up to us to set a good example?

I just love how the 'elite minds' think thier sense of fairness and justice they learned at Berkley(or the like) applies to
world politics and/or conflict. ROFL!!! Ummm no.

Well at least you've got love for something. I haven't been to school, what I know is of myself and the way I operate, used to operate, think I operate, and the similarities I see in the way other people are behaving, people who it would seem haven't been lucky to enough to experience that which allows one to stop and ask "what if everything I know is wrong?".

I don't think I've taken sides, rather I'm trying to play a little devils advocate here. People are incomplete, they're hurting on the inside, so they fight and destroy, and we're all losers because of that. There is too strong a tendency to focus on what others are not doing right as a way to overlook where we are falling short. It seems to me that that is where all the hatred and agression comes from, the need to aleviate inner pain with blaim.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Hmmm...

I don't hate anyone.

But will kill whoever it takes to protect me and mine.

It doesn't take hate to kill, only circumstance.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: This is the jungle, we are animals, let the strongest survive.

I sympathise with and see why BOTH sides are fighting. If I were in thier shoes I would fight also.
That said, I side with Israel.

There are no right and wrong in this conflict. Now, there just needs to be a winner.

 

[pallander]

>I've said it before, I'll say it again: This is the jungle, we are animals, let the strongest survive>>
Jesus,you think we are as dumb as the apes.

 

[Amused]

<< The Palestinians refuse to oust or imprison the terrorists

And how would you suggest that they go about stopping the terrorist attacks?

As you have said before Riprorin Palestine is a roughly contrived region. What they need is a solid government, and with that will come the kind of accountability to stabilize the terrorism. Arafat & co are nothing, figureheads, they cannot control the hundreds of terrorist factions, and like anyone else the more they are pushed the more they will push back. There needs to be a clear, positive goal, not just throwing wild blind punches that are doing more damage then actually making things better. Either that or maybe it would be better to just pull out altogether.

On top of that, you guys need a good dousing of "Arab" culture, they are just as much people as anyone else. I see people taking sides essentially because the Jews have paler faces and are more closely related. >>



Another impotent cry of racism.

I have no genetic or color based beef against the Arab nations. My beef is purely cultural.

The minute you understand that, is the minute we can have a rational debate.

Finally, there is nothing to suggest a "Palestinian" government will be any different from the surrounding Arab nations, i.e., oppressive, theocratic, undemocratic, and with a nearly singular mindset on the fate of Israel and any other infidels in their "holy lands." Middle Eastern Arab cultures and governments are 180 degrees from western "liberal" values. Why any US liberal would support them is beyond me. The same goes for conservatives as the arab nations hold little value on individual freedoms.

Palestinian Arabs, and the surrounding Arab nations for that matter, don't just need a good government, they need a cultural revolution. Until that changes, nothing will.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

<< >I've said it before, I'll say it again: This is the jungle, we are animals, let the strongest survive>>
Jesus,you think we are as dumb as the apes. >>



No, not as dumb. As savage.

Can you look at the bloody history of mankind and tell me we are any less savage than apes?

 

[PistachioByAzul]

I never said "racism" and I don't follow any "liberal" party line.

There is nothing to suggest that anything short of nuking the entire middle east will solve this problem. But we don't have that right, so if we're to be involved there is an obligation to work out a peaceful solution, or else we let them fight it out.

 

[pallander]

<No, not as dumb. As savage.

Can you look at the bloody history of mankind and tell me we are any less savage than apes? >

that is just a bad excuse,I think we humans are intelligent enough to talk instead of kill....some arent though and that is the problem.
this is moment 22,and will never end until either side is wiped away I am afraid..

 

[Amused]

<< I never said "racism" and I don't follow any "liberal" party line.

There is nothing to suggest that anything short of nuking the entire middle east will solve this problem. But we don't have that right, so if we're to be involved there is an obligation to work out a peaceful solution, or else we let them fight it out. >>



No, what we need is a massive propaganda campaign mixed with good old fashioned on the ground down and dirty infiltration.

Hell, it helped change the hearts and minds of the Soviet citizens, why not the Arabs? Why not treat theocratical extremism just as we did Communism?

There is nothing inherently wrong with religion. And there is nothing inherently wrong with government. But trust me, these are two great tastes that are NOT great together (shameless Reeses Peanutbutter cup joke).

I firmly believe that what we see in the middle east is much like what we saw in Europe during the middle ages. I just hope their culture can change a hell of a lot faster than ours did