Exploiting the situation to derail the conversation... that's what you're doing, right?
LOL, now the mainstream media has a conservative bias.
Police absolutely need to be held to a higher standard, but societal and institutional change requires sustained political pressure, and for those of us who are on board with the notion of reforming the police, we also recognize that there is a criminal element quite capable of exploiting the situation until it derails the whole conversation. This is what happened in Seattle.
Is it sooooo unreasonable to ask that we simultaneously address both police reform and criminal gun violence given that they’re both contributing factors to the larger conversation? But I also recognize this is harder to acknowledge and address, its far easier to blame the police and go knock over a few statues.
I am very interested in seeing Trump addresses this! This is sort of a slap at Trump!!
So you mentioned a few cities out of the thousands in US? Horribly biased.I cited Chicago, and NY, and Atlanta, and Philadelphia...all cities matter, quite a few are experiencing a rise in gun violence.
It matters because gun violence demands and forces an armed police response, which increases the likelihood of officer involved shootings.
BLM should be calling to an end to gun violence, as it directly correlated to the entire police conversation.
No, because I support demilitarizing the police. Specific to this thread, I liked your post that the last thing we need is armed militias getting shooty with one another.Exploiting the situation to derail the conversation... that's what you're doing, right?
I mentioned the cities cited in an article that highlights cities witnessing a spike in gun violence. Facts and data don’t have a bias.So you mentioned a few cities out of the thousands in US? Horribly biased.
Prescription drug abuse and financial crimes are separate issues. The doctors issuing those prescriptions and Wall Street criminals don’t engage in gun violence turf wars in their own neighborhoods that result in innocent children getting killed.Nor did you address prescription drug abuse and financial crimes which are rampant through the white community in addition to black gun violence and police brutality.
All crimes do matter, but gun violence requires a police response, and its all part of a vicious cycle that got us to an unaccountable and overly aggressive militarized police force.All crimes matter. In fact I don’t see how BLM could even address gun violence until those others are addressed.
LOL, now the mainstream media has a conservative bias.
Police absolutely need to be held to a higher standard, but societal and institutional change requires sustained political pressure, and for those of us who are on board with the notion of reforming the police, we also recognize that there is a criminal element quite capable of exploiting the situation until it derails the whole conversation. This is what happened in Seattle.
Is it sooooo unreasonable to ask that we simultaneously address both police reform and criminal gun violence given that they’re both contributing factors to the larger conversation? But I also recognize this is harder to acknowledge and address, its far easier to blame the police and go knock over a few statues.
You just lumped gun violence with Police reform.....yet you claimed in another post that Nice try, I didn’t equate BLM = Police reform, to gun violence. You are the one speaking out of both side of your mouth.....Is it sooooo unreasonable to ask that we simultaneously address both police reform and criminal gun violence given that they’re both contributing factors to the larger conversation?
Reporting a surge in gun violence isn’t pro-government or pro-institution, its simply a statement of fact.Yes, the mainstream media has always had a pro-institutional bias. I've been telling you this for years, how did you miss it? I don't know how oblivious someone would have to be to not have noticed that the US media has a strong pro-government bias but.. well... I guess people don't even learn from things like the Iraq War.
I never said that. What I said is that there is a correlation between gun violence and police response. Eliminate the root causes of violent crime and you eliminate the need for a militarized and aggressive police force.This is a straw man as no one has ever been against combating gun violence.
This entire conversation is about personal responsibility. To solve it requires a multi-faceted response. One aspect of that response is police reform. Police reform in and of itself is not going to change the socio-economic root cause. Until you grasp the basics of cause and effect you will never be able to solve the problem.In fact, it's far, FAR easier to blame gun violence and not acknowledge the culture of criminality and impunity in our police. You're taking the easy route out and I'm saying it's long past time we stopped letting people like you do that. The police are to blame for their own actions and no one else. Repeat it with me. Until you grasp this basic fact of personal responsibility you will never be able to solve the problem.
strike 2You just lumped gun violence with Police reform.....yet you claimed in another post that Nice try, I didn’t equate BLM = Police reform, to gun violence. You are the one speaking out of both side of your mouth.....
Gun violence required the Police to respond and treat equally everybody, no matter race!All crimes do matter, but gun violence requires a police response, and its all part of a vicious cycle that got us to an unaccountable and overly aggressive militarized police force.
Thx for agreeing with me!! 3 strikes and you are out!!strike 2
Yes, the mainstream media has always had a pro-institutional bias. I've been telling you this for years, how did you miss it? I don't know how oblivious someone would have to be to not have noticed that the US media has a strong pro-government bias but.. well... I guess people don't even learn from things like the Iraq War.
This is a straw man as no one has ever been against combating gun violence. In fact, it's far, FAR easier to blame gun violence and not acknowledge the culture of criminality and impunity in our police. You're taking the easy route out and I'm saying it's long past time we stopped letting people like you do that. The police are to blame for their own actions and no one else. Repeat it with me. Until you grasp this basic fact of personal responsibility you will never be able to solve the problem.
Reporting a surge in gun violence isn’t pro-government or pro-institution, its simply a statement of fact.
I never said that. What I said is that there is a correlation between gun violence and police response. Eliminate the root causes of violent crime and you eliminate the need for a militarized and aggressive police force.
This entire conversation is about personal responsibility. To solve it requires a multi-faceted response. One aspect of that response is police reform. Police reform in and of itself is not going to change the socio-economic root cause. Until you grasp the basics of cause and effect you will never be able to solve the problem.
Strike 3You just lumped gun violence with Police reform.....yet you claimed in another post that Nice try, I didn’t equate BLM = Police reform, to gun violence. You are the one speaking out of both side of your mouth.....
What’s yours?What's your point?
Common senseYes, if you eliminate crime you eliminate the need for police. Very insightful.
Who is we, concern squad? I am trying to make you understand that police reform is one facet of the problem.Yes, we are trying to make you understand this is about personal responsibility.
So now you’ve moved the goal posts. I said there is a correlation, and you have to solve both simultaneously.The conduct of the police is 100% the responsibility of the police. It is the responsibility of no one else. Saying that criminals make the police perjure themselves, brutalize suspects without cause, kill people in cold blood, etc. is arguing against personal responsibility.
I support police reform and demilitarization, so you must have me confused with the straw man inside your mind.Again, if you want to argue that the situation forces police to engage in misconduct then make that case. Tell me what about the job requires them to commit these offenses.
What’s yours?
Common sense
Who is we, concern squad? I am trying to make you understand that police reform is one facet of the problem.
So now you’ve moved the goal posts. I said there is a correlation, and you have to solve both simultaneously.
You unfortunately do not appear to support personal responsibility for them or else you wouldn't be blaming their conduct on other people.I support police reform and demilitarization, so you must have me confused with the straw man inside your mind.
What's your point?
Yes, if you eliminate crime you eliminate the need for police. Very insightful.
Yes, we are trying to make you understand this is about personal responsibility. The conduct of the police is 100% the responsibility of the police. It is the responsibility of no one else. Saying that criminals make the police perjure themselves, brutalize suspects without cause, kill people in cold blood, etc. is arguing against personal responsibility.
Again, if you want to argue that the situation forces police to engage in misconduct then make that case. Tell me what about the job requires them to commit these offenses.
I am more inclined toward Starbuck's liberal view of this than your conservative view. Police violence does not arise in a vacuum. Treating it solely as a matter of "personal responsibility" is the equivalent of a conservative arguing that crime in black neighborhoods is entirely the personal responsibility of the criminals and no one else. Hence, we need to apprehend and punish criminals more. Hence, we need more police, and more militarized police. That is what an argument based solely on "personal responsibility" leads to.
Liberals have been arguing for years that there is a socio-economic context to crime and that its root causes need addressing. His argument in relation to police violence is parallel.
Bear in mind that the WaPo statistics on police killings show that over 80% of these killings involve a suspect armed with a firearm. These are the vast majority of killings which are largely ignored by the media. When we compare the 1000 police killings per year here with Europe, we see a huge per capita disparity and this leads liberals to conclude...that our police are just more racist and more bloodthirsty. Sort of like saying that blacks commit more violent crime because blacks are just more inclined to do so, which is what conservatives think. And ignoring the fact that European police are just not very likely to encounter suspects armed with guns, because apparently gun control is suddenly less important than just being angry with police.
Gun control, perhaps. And many other factors. We have a popular culture which glorifies violence, and most especially violence done by the "good guys" which are usually portrayed as law enforcement. And we have a gangsta rap culture which glorifies violence by street gangs. And we have lots of socio-economic factors which affect crimes in these neighborhoods. These issues are complex and all have to be viewed in context if we are to get a grip on rational solutions.
Police reform is important but it is only one piece of the puzzle. He's right that police violence cannot be viewed as wholly separate from violent crime in general.
I strongly disagree, and I think focusing on killings misses the much wider array of police misconduct that we have come to accept as normal.
Police are public employees with a duty to serve the public trust. The problem with police violence is indeed one related to crime, but not in the way you think. The reason why police violence and misconduct is so bad is not because the mean old criminals make them do it, it's because there are no consequences for when police commit crimes or brutalize the people they are charged with protecting. Solving the crime problem in the US will not stop police brutality. Just look at the last 30 years - crime is way down yet police continue to engage in egregious misconduct. The problem is impunity, and the way you solve impunity is through ensuring that police know when they break the law or break regulations they will be held accountable.
I think this is encapsulated by my previous statement that nobody is against reducing crime in these neighborhoods but I don’t see a strong connection between crime rate and police misconduct, and frankly much of police misconduct is based around hiding other police misconduct. I think to believe that misconduct would lessen if the crime rate went down is a pretty iffy proposition. Again, if they are related then why has the widespread, nationwide decline in crime not led to a time where misconduct is not so widespread?I agree that killings are actually a small aspect of police misconduct, statistically speaking. Yet the killings are what is grabbing our attention, nationally. It's practically all anyone speaks about or writes about. But it's absurd to miss that 500 million guns being in private hands is not by far the single largest factor in these killings. It's a fact. If a city like Chicago has strict gun control, it doesn't matter because the guns are brought across state lines from some neighboring red state.
Do you deny that liberals have downplayed this in favor of a narrative where our police are just trigger happy and racist just because they are? It's hard to deny this on P&N, since I am about the only liberal here who has bothered to even make this point, and my point has been entirely ignored whenever it has been made.
Another thing being ignored is that violent crime is higher in black neighborhoods, and also that drugs are often dealt on the streets in black neighborhoods, two facts which go together. Street dealing results in drive by gang shootings where one gang targets a dealer of another gang who they think is encroaching on their territory, and street dealing also brings in police in much higher numbers because they are inclined to pursue easy busts.
Lots of things can be done to address this: legalize marijuana, decriminalize simple possession of harder drugs, remove asset forfeiture laws which provide a disincentive to dealing from one's own home, decrease penalties for indoor dealing, increase penalties for dealing on public property like city sidewalks. These kinds of reforms will reduce gang violence and also decrease police presence in black neighborhoods including the constant "stop and frisk" harassment of the residents of these neighborhoods. These things are not now being discussed by liberals because liberals are afraid of discussing anything that doesn't fall in line with the principle narrative of police racism being the governing factor.
My approach here is additive while yours is reductive. Hence, you'll get no argument from me about police reform aimed at increasing accountability for criminal behavior of police. That is a problem we've had throughout our entire history, and frankly, I see no solid evidence that it is either increasing or decreasing. There are rational solutions, many of which I've suggested in other threads. But even if we implement these reforms and see some decrease in police misconduct, but that is all we do, I guarantee you that black communities are still going to feel like they're being harassed by police. Hence, I cannot agree that the issues are entirely separate.
ABC News is reporting that this past weekend, there were 87 people shot in Chicago, 17 fatally. In NYC, 64 shooting victims, 270 for the month of June. 25 shooting victims in Philadelphia. 23 in Atlanta.
The last time we’ve seen shootings at this rate was in the late 90s, which ushered in the era of police militarization and the degradation of police accountability.
Hard to make the case for police reform when violent crime is on the rise, and the societal animosity towards police is having the net effect of emboldening criminals and causing even more deaths and community harm.
When did condemning gun violence become perfection?
I think this is encapsulated by my previous statement that nobody is against reducing crime in these neighborhoods but I don’t see a strong connection between crime rate and police misconduct, and frankly much of police misconduct is based around hiding other police misconduct. I think to believe that misconduct would lessen if the crime rate went down is a pretty iffy proposition. Again, if they are related then why has the widespread, nationwide decline in crime not led to a time where misconduct is not so widespread?
The culture of impunity is the #1 problem. Everything else is secondary and we can’t lose sight of it to nebulous ideas like if we just reduced crime enough the police would behave. They won’t.
Yes, but police misconduct in general and in toto is now an issue which is popularly bound up with a liberal narrative that racism is the central reason for why black communities are getting harassed so often by police. In fact, the issues are not the same. Police misconduct has been around forever. The victims of it are of all different races. And the culture of impunity you discuss applies across the board.
The necessity of maintaining the "police are racist" narrative is I think causing people on the left to not see that black communities are targeted by police for reasons not always having to do with racism.
We can reduce police misconduct, and we should. And yes, I agree, we need to get rid of this thin blue line culture of impunity. But black communities are going to continue to feel as if they are being disproportionately targeted by police because of racism until we address what is happening in black neighborhoods. The street dealing and gang violence there not only provides more opportunities for police misconduct directed at those communities, but also more opportunity for legitimate police conduct in those neighborhoods which is nonetheless perceived as harassment by the residents.
In sum, I would say this: we can address police misconduct in general as an issue separate and apart from gang violence and street dealing in black neighborhoods. Those issues can be separated. But we can't discuss police racism, real and/or perceived, in relation to police presence and behavior in black neighborhoods without discussing the gang violence and street dealing in those same neighborhoods.
Sure, but when did we ever stop discussing gang violence and street dealing? Everyone is well aware this is a problem. I wonder what it would do to perceptions of bias if the police were regularly prosecuted/disciplined for their misconduct though.
More importantly, police misconduct and its effect on feelings of racial bias is actionable. Would it be great to massively scale back crime in those neighborhoods? Sure! That’s really hard to do though. Know what’s a lot easier to do? Hold public employees accountable.
But we're refusing to discuss any link between the two. For example, we point out that blacks are four times more likely to be arrested for marijuana while white people consume similar amounts of marijuana. The argument that this is entirely due to racism ignores the fact that it is so much easier for police to catch people for drugs when they're doing it right out on the street.
We may not have stopped discussing gang violence and street dealing per se, but the idea that there is a link is practically sacrilege on the left right now and that is not a healthy thing. There is this idea that we must view the issues as totally separate conversations and I think this is causing us to overlook possible solutions like bringing the drug dealing in minority neighborhoods indoors where it is safer for the community and involves far less police harassment.
I’m sorry, but this is a very poor argument.Indeed, why would we even consider such things when our approved narrative is that police harass residences of black neighborhoods solely because they don't like black people. If that is the sole problem here, then we really just need to address racism on the part of police and the problem goes away, right? Except it won't. Not even if we implausibly managed to get rid of every last racist cop.