It is time sanders drops out.

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edo101

Member
Mar 17, 2016
34
0
0
Hope he stays in longer and maybe explain his progressive ideas more. Personally I know he's gonna lose
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
She will sacrifice her principles to get stuff done.

I was going to say you got that first part right, but that implies she has any, which I do not believe to be true. Her one enduring principle seems to be taking whichever course of action will increase her power or her personal wealth. All others are subject to change.
 
Nov 25, 2013
32,083
11,718
136
I was going to say you got that first part right, but that implies she has any, which I do not believe to be true. Her one enduring principle seems to be taking whichever course of action will increase her power or her personal wealth. All others are subject to change.

In short, she acts pretty much like most humans. The very devil I say!
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
0
0
True, but most humans aren't asking me to vote for them for President either.
Most humans haven't voted for the death of thousands of Americans in Iraq, not to mention the thousands of serious injuries and long term disabilities of American military personnel. Most humans haven't supported almost every Middle East de-stabilizing action committed by Bush and Obama. Most humans haven't pushed to have Libya incinerated and turned into another Syria. Most humans haven't made an awful lot of the mistakes made by Hillary. Talk about strained analogies....
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,086
30,418
136
Most humans haven't voted for the death of thousands of Americans in Iraq, not to mention the thousands of serious injuries and long term disabilities of American military personnel. Most humans haven't supported almost every Middle East de-stabilizing action committed by Bush and Obama. Most humans haven't pushed to have Libya incinerated and turned into another Syria. Most humans haven't made an awful lot of the mistakes made by Hillary. Talk about strained analogies....

That is an extremely twisted version of how the Iraq vote went down. Bush asked Congress for authorization with the promise that it would be used as a negotiation tool and only used as a last resort. Then when he got it he laughed and said just kidding, we aren't really going to negotiate, we gonna fuck Saddam up!
 

MagickMan

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2008
7,460
3
76
LOL @ the people still defending Hillary. Welcome to the Bush presidency v3.0, this time with tits! A neocon's gonna do what a neocon's gonna do.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Most humans haven't voted for the death of thousands of Americans in Iraq, not to mention the thousands of serious injuries and long term disabilities of American military personnel. Most humans haven't supported almost every Middle East de-stabilizing action committed by Bush and Obama. Most humans haven't pushed to have Libya incinerated and turned into another Syria. Most humans haven't made an awful lot of the mistakes made by Hillary. Talk about strained analogies....

Indeed. And welcome back.

That is an extremely twisted version of how the Iraq vote went down. Bush asked Congress for authorization with the promise that it would be used as a negotiation tool and only used as a last resort. Then when he got it he laughed and said just kidding, we aren't really going to negotiate, we gonna fuck Saddam up!

Who hands poison to a child and says "as long as you promise not to drink it?" Don't give someone power if you don't want them to use it.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,086
30,418
136
Indeed. And welcome back.



Who hands poison to a child and says "as long as you promise not to drink it?" Don't give someone power if you don't want them to use it.

Who expects the President to fucking lie to Congress about something like this? Let's also not forget the political cost at the time for speaking out against our "fight against evildoers."
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,485
2,363
136
Who expects the President to fucking lie to Congress about something like this? Let's also not forget the political cost at the time for speaking out against our "fight against evildoers."

Bernie Sanders did it. He voted against Iraq War and against Patriot act at a time when it was near political suicide to do so.

Who're you going to vote for? Are you going to vote for the guy who risked his political career to do what's right or for a woman who not only buckled to the political pressure but essentially promised to keep the war going?
 
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SP33Demon

Lifer
Jun 22, 2001
27,928
142
106
Bernie Sanders did it. He voted against Iraq War and against Patriot act at a time when it was near political suicide to do so.

Who're you going to vote for? Are you going to vote for the guy who risked his political career to do what's right or for a woman who promises to keep the war going?
He's still going to vote hillary because of his low IQ. He can't help himself.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,570
50,753
136
Bernie Sanders did it. He voted against Iraq War and against Patriot act at a time when it was near political suicide to do so.

Who're you going to vote for? Are you going to vote for the guy who risked his political career to do what's right or for a woman who promises to keep the war going?

Sanders has always been good for ideological purity and there's definitely a place for that. The problem with Sanders is that his policies don't add up. His heart is in the right place but that's not enough.

We are entering a phase of the primary where he has a bunch of states in a row where he should perform well, but unless he's winning all those states by 40 or 50 points in the end it's not going to change the math. While he can still technically win the odds of that are very long indeed.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,485
2,363
136
Sanders has always been good for ideological purity and there's definitely a place for that. The problem with Sanders is that his policies don't add up. His heart is in the right place but that's not enough.

So your preferences is for a candidate that has shitty policies because those shitty policies can actually get accomplished? How does that make sense?

I'd rather have a candidate that pushes good policies even if he doesn't get his way as opposed to a candidate that that gets her shitty policies passed. With Bernie Sanders at best we get some of the good policies pushed through, worst case he gets nothing done, with Hillary the best and worst case don't matter because they're both shitty. Continuing Middle East wars, continuing NSA surveillance on American Citizens, continuing failed drug wars against weed, and infringing on the second amendment are all shitty policies. I do not want Hillary pushing these policies, and she will push those policies if she becomes the president.
 
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dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,086
30,418
136
Bernie Sanders did it. He voted against Iraq War and against Patriot act at a time when it was near political suicide to do so.

Who're you going to vote for? Are you going to vote for the guy who risked his political career to do what's right or for a woman who not only buckled to the political pressure but essentially promised to keep the war going?

I will be voting for Bernie in the Primary but will vote for Hillary in the General if (when) she gets the nomination.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,570
50,753
136
So your preferences is for a candidate that has shitty policies because those shitty policies can actually get accomplished? How does that make sense?

I'd rather have a candidate that pushes good policies even if he doesn't get his way as opposed to a candidate that that gets her shitty policies passed. With Bernie Sanders at best we get some of the good policies pushed through, worst case he gets nothing done, with Hillary the best and worst case don't matter because they're both shitty.

What policies of Hillary's do you consider shitty, specifically?

I actually think Sanders has a lot of bad policies. They aren't bad because of the general direction they want to go, but they are poorly thought out and rely on frankly preposterous assumptions. He's very much like GOP candidates in that way, where he lays out an unrealistic policy with terrible numbers and then just hand waves away complaints that his math doesn't add up. The Democrats are better than the GOP in that whole 'respect for reality' way. Sanders takes us away from that.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
36,086
30,418
136
So your preferences is for a candidate that has shitty policies because those shitty policies can actually get accomplished? How does that make sense?

I'd rather have a candidate that pushes good policies even if he doesn't get his way as opposed to a candidate that that gets her shitty policies passed. With Bernie Sanders at best we get some of the good policies pushed through, worst case he gets nothing done, with Hillary the best and worst case don't matter because they're both shitty. Continuing Middle East wars, continuing NSA surveillance on American Citizens, continuing failed drug wars against weed, and infringing on the second amendment are all shitty policies. I do not want those policies Hillary in the office pushing those policies.
It doesn't matter how much you like Bernie if he doesn't win the nomination. The GOP supports all the shit you say you hate about Hillary plus a lot more shit.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,570
50,753
136
Continuing Middle East wars,

What does this mean, specifically?

continuing NSA surveillance on American Citizens,

I agree this is shitty!

continuing failed drug wars against weed

Clinton's drug policy is actually quite good. She's for decreased enforcement and drastic increases in drug treatment. I have no idea why that would be 'shitty' just because she didn't call for marijuana legalization.

, and infringing on the second amendment are all shitty policies.

Sanders has a D- rating from the NRA.

I do not want those policies Hillary in the office pushing those policies.

So as best as I can tell we have a nebulous statement on the middle east, NSA surveillence, a complaint that her good drug policy is somehow shitty because it doesn't include marijuana legalization, and a complaint that she would be for gun control slightly more than the guy you are supporting who got a D-.

This is not a very compelling case to say the least.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,485
2,363
136
It doesn't matter how much you like Bernie if he doesn't win the nomination. The GOP supports all the shit you say you hate about Hillary plus a lot more shit.

I'm glad to hear you'll be voting for Bernie in the primary. It is true, Republicans are not any better than Democrats, and arguably they're actually worse. I do not have any illusions about it. If you want to vote for Hillary in the general election should she become the Democratic nominee, I completely understand that. Personally I don't think I'll be able to bring myself to vote for Hillary. She does not represent my interests and I'm not going to vote for lesser evil.

Every time election comes around I get reminded by Douglas Adams quote from Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy:
“It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"
"What?"
"I said," said Ford, with an increasing air of urgency creeping into his voice, "have you got any gin?"
"I'll look. Tell me about the lizards."
Ford shrugged again.
"Some people say that the lizards are the best thing that ever happenned to them," he said. "They're completely wrong of course, completely and utterly wrong, but someone's got to say it."
"But that's terrible," said Arthur.
"Listen, bud," said Ford, "if I had one Altairian dollar for every time I heard one bit of the Universe look at another bit of the Universe and say 'That's terrible' I wouldn't be sitting here like a lemon looking for a gin.”
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,570
50,753
136
I'm glad to hear you'll be voting for Bernie in the primary. It is true, Republicans are not any better than Democrats, and arguably they're actually worse. I do not have any illusions about it. If you want to vote for Hillary in the general election should she become the Democratic nominee, I completely understand that. Personally I don't think I'll be able to bring myself to vote for Hillary. She does not represent my interests and I'm not going to vote for lesser evil.

Every time election comes around I get reminded by Douglas Adams quote from Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy:

Are you in favor of the ACA over returning to our old system?
Are you in favor of higher taxes on the rich over lower taxes on the rich?
Are you in favor of Dodd-Frank over returning to our old financial regulations?
Are you in favor of nominating liberal SCOTUS justices instead of conservative ones?

Those sound like things you would support.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
Are you in favor of the ACA over returning to our old system?
Are you in favor of higher taxes on the rich over lower taxes on the rich?
Are you in favor of Dodd-Frank over returning to our old financial regulations?
Are you in favor of nominating liberal SCOTUS justices instead of conservative ones?

Those sound like things you would support.

This. While I think Clinton is the lesser evil compared to Trump or Cruz, she is the much, much, MUCH lesser evil. Sanders is my first choice, but I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,570
50,753
136
This. While I think Clinton is the lesser evil compared to Trump or Cruz, she is the much, much, MUCH lesser evil. Sanders is my first choice, but I'm not going to cut off my nose to spite my face.

I have to say I don't even get the 'lesser evil' argument. Say someone thinks that Sanders's policies are the goal. After a Clinton presidency do you think, on the whole, that America will have a public policy that is closer to that goal or farther away?

Maybe it wouldn't be as much closer as you want, but I think few people would say it is likely to be farther away.
 

fleshconsumed

Diamond Member
Feb 21, 2002
6,485
2,363
136
What does this mean, specifically?



I agree this is shitty!



Clinton's drug policy is actually quite good. She's for decreased enforcement and drastic increases in drug treatment. I have no idea why that would be 'shitty' just because she didn't call for marijuana legalization.



Sanders has a D- rating from the NRA.



So as best as I can tell we have a nebulous statement on the middle east, NSA surveillence, a complaint that her good drug policy is somehow shitty because it doesn't include marijuana legalization, and a complaint that she would be for gun control slightly more than the guy you are supporting who got a D-.

This is not a very compelling case to say the least.

Just go educate yourself
http://www.ontheissues.org/War_+_Peace.htm
As late as 2008 she voted to keep boots on the ground. She wanted to keep helping the Syrian rebels in 2014, she supported no-fly zones in 2015. She's a war hawk.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Drugs.htm
Hillary is only for the use of Medical MJ, she does not want to legalize recreational use. Bernie voted for Medical use as early as 2001 and he is for recreational use.

http://www.ontheissues.org/Gun_Control.htm
It's really not that hard to get D- from NRA. You get D- for anything less than full gun deregulation. That said, if you note, I fully admitted in the past that Bernie did flip flop on gun control, he's all over the place there. However, he's still not as hardcore about it as Hillary is. If I were to pick one I would begrudgingly pick him. Plus this is one issue that resonates the strongest with the American public and the one this is one area where Republicans and the rest will mount the most opposition. Realistically I don't think anything drastic is going to happen here.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
I have to say I don't even get the 'lesser evil' argument. Say someone thinks that Sanders's policies are the goal. After a Clinton presidency do you think, on the whole, that America will have a public policy that is closer to that goal or farther away?

Maybe it wouldn't be as much closer as you want, but I think few people would say it is likely to be farther away.
In some areas we will certainly be closer to goal with either Sanders or Clinton. With others, specifically including military misadventures, I believe Clinton is likely to make things worse than today.
 
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