It makes no sense to buy foreign cars

[desura]

Eh, for your basic gas car it looks like the most creative that can take place is in the body design like the PT cruiser, which is why I brought it up. Or the Ford Thunderbird from the early 2000's, which was discontinued quickly. In the same category as the VW bug, which is just a beatle-esque casing over a VW Golf platform. The Nissan Z was also noteworthy I thought.

Creativity pretty much can only be expressed in body design, no? I mean, you wouldn't want like a "creative" air bag system, or a creative suspension system, or a creative seat belt system.

 

[Vic Vega]

The dealers killed the 2002-2005 Thunderbird.

Some dealers were asking upwards of $10,000 above the MSRP.

First year sales were good, higher than Ford expected. Sales dropped off because of the dealers. Shame really.

You wonder how much money Ford spent developing the car and if they ever made money off it. I wonder if they can penalize dealers for lot sales because of pricing gaffes.

 

[Leyawiin]

I wish it was. Saw a 08 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon at 35k miles was falling apart. Never once off roaded. While your generally right among the american auto mfgs they are last in perceived quality.

Pre-crash, pre-Marchionne. '08 might as well be '98.

 

[desura]

Pre-crash, pre-Marchionne. '08 might as well be '98.

What I don't get is that...Mercedes Benz bought Chrysler, right? How did they mess this one up?

 

[Vic Vega]

What I don't get is that...Mercedes Benz bought Chrysler, right? How did they mess this one up?

Before Mercedes and Chrysler "merged" Chrysler was extremely profitable.

Mercedes eventually won control even though it was a merger. They gutted the company. They spent ALL of Chrysler's cash (they had a LOT of cash on hand), mostly on Mercedes R&D, they mortgaged every Chrysler factory, office building, every piece of equipment, all of it. They sucked Chrysler dry and then sold it.

Fuck Mercedes, honestly, I'll never buy one because of how Chrysler was destroyed by them. I'm not even a Mopar guy but it disgusts me.

There are some good books on this if you're curious.

 

[desura]

Before Mercedes and Chrysler "merged" Chrysler was extremely profitable.

Mercedes eventually won control even though it was a merger. They gutted the company. They spent ALL of Chrysler's cash (they had a LOT of cash on hand), mostly on Mercedes R&D, they mortgaged every Chrysler factory, office building, every piece of equipment, all of it. They sucked Chrysler dry and then sold it.

Fuck Mercedes, honestly, I'll never buy one because of how Chrysler was destroyed by them. I'm not even a Mopar guy but it disgusts me.

There are some good books on this if you're curious.

These sort of books are the only kind of books I can actually finish nowadays (dead serious).

like, on my reading list, critically acclaimed fiction goes unread while a biography of Sam Walton is finished in an evening.

So please, recommend away.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Creativity pretty much can only be expressed in body design, no? I mean, you wouldn't want like a "creative" air bag system, or a creative suspension system, or a creative seat belt system.

Actually, you do want a "creative" air bag system. That's how we got the current "2nd generation" airbags that are "smart" enough not to go off with full force from a 5 mph collision when the driver really doesn't need his nose broken. Independent suspension was "creative" when it came out, as are the fantastic new multilink suspension designs that combine the space savings of things like a simple twist beam with the better geometry control of a double wishbone setup. The concept of seatbelt pretensioners was also "creative" when it came out.

So were things like ABS, disc brakes, etc.

Seems mostly like the problem is that your definition of "creative" is very shallow and uninformed.

ZV

 

[desura]

Actually, you do want a "creative" air bag system. That's how we got the current "2nd generation" airbags that are "smart" enough not to go off with full force from a 5 mph collision when the driver really doesn't need his nose broken. Independent suspension was "creative" when it came out, as are the fantastic new multilink suspension designs that combine the space savings of things like a simple twist beam with the better geometry control of a double wishbone setup. The concept of seatbelt pretensioners was also "creative" when it came out.

So were things like ABS, disc brakes, etc.

Seems mostly like the problem is that your definition of "creative" is very shallow and uninformed.

ZV

I define "creative" differently from "innovative."

 

[KentState]

I've owned a little bit of this and a little bit of that. There was definitely a turning point in the last 15 years or so where American cars were actually worth buying again. Ford specifically has really made some decent vehicles that I can't complain about. The problem though is that some of the worst cars I've ever driven were American. The PT Cruiser and just about anything by Chrysler is just god awful. For some reason car rental places like to stock these. Horrible, horrible cars. I honestly can't come up with a worse and more sluggish car than a PT Cruiser. I had the horror of having to drive one of those through the streets of San Francisco and it almost didn't have the power to make the hills. Even something as simple as driving through Arizona where they have those flash flood ditches the car felt like it couldn't handle the incline. The Cobalt was another one that concerned me but it was so much better than the PT Cruiser that I was ok with it when I was trying to rent a cheap car on business trips.

Now I noticed that someone mentioned Car and Driver and all that but I honestly can't imagine that it's correct. Someone fact check that. Was it the turbo? Reminds me of the old MR2. If you drove the turbo it was great fun but if you drove the regular version it was one of the worst cars on the road.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysler_PT_Cruiser
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2001-10best-cars-feature

In 2001 Car and Driver acknowledged the PT Cruiser on its Ten Best list and the PT Cruiser also won the North American Car of the Year.

I have the actual magazine somewhere and truly remember the disgust when it was so.

Also... http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/112_0101coy/viewall.html

 

[Pacfanweb]

The dealers killed the 2002-2005 Thunderbird.

Some dealers were asking upwards of $10,000 above the MSRP.

First year sales were good, higher than Ford expected. Sales dropped off because of the dealers. Shame really.

You wonder how much money Ford spent developing the car and if they ever made money off it. I wonder if they can penalize dealers for lot sales because of pricing gaffes.

It wasn't dealers that killed the 'Bird. They were asking 10k over sticker because people were PAYING IT, and practically fighting to do so. We had waiting lists for years before they finally released the car.

The prices came down after the demand decreased, and basically once everyone who wanted that old retro-style car had one, nobody else wanted them.

Ford never intended to keep making the car, they announced it'd be a limited run in the beginning.

 

[Pacfanweb]

Unless you're looking for special features in a car, like for instance the Nissan Leaf or the Toyota Prius is pretty unique on the market, it doesn't make much sense IMO to buy foreign cars. Reasons...

1. Domestic carmakers have closed the quality gap that existed in the 1990's, and so now they're as-good as foreign cars.

2. They're by and large cheaper

3. They're by and large easier to repair and cheaper to repair.

Pretty simple, no? There are some nationalistic bonus points for buying a Ford or Chevy, but rationally, it makes more sense to buy domestic cars today than foreign. Even foreign cars made in the USA, like the Camry, still source significantly more parts from overseas than domestic cars IIRC, making them more expensive again, to repair over the long haul.

This is pretty much dead-on, and has been the case for ten years or so now. I've been saying it for at least that long, and now it's been long enough that people are catching on.

A Chevy or Ford is just as good as a Honda or Toyota. Any of them should last 200k miles with proper maintenance. All of them have their turds, too.

 

[Zenmervolt]

I define "creative" differently from "innovative."

As I said, it's a shallow and uninformed definition.

ZV

 

[AmdEmAll]

1. Domestic carmakers have closed the quality gap that existed in the 1990's, and so now they're as-good as foreign cars. Eh I wouldn't say this is entirely true.. Ford has closed the gap i'd say.. GM is getting better.. Chrysler.. NO

2. They're by and large cheaper Where do you get this information? Not true

3. They're by and large easier to repair and cheaper to repair. Once again bs.. work on a Subaru or a Lexus and you will see that you are wrong.

As a car enthusiast im going to buy whatever the hell I like.. I don't give a crap where its from.

Every car manufacture has its ups and downs.. for example I think the designs of Honda have completely gone to shit. Not sure what they were thinking? Other side of the coin Kia and Hyundai have some damn good looking cars and have very good build quality and reliability now. Chrysler has some shit looking cars as usual and their fit and finish is still not good. Ford has made leaps and bounds on quality and design.

 

[nerp]

Again, people talking about Chrysler fit and finish really need to go drive some 2012 and 2013s and come back and report. Better than Honda, Toyota, now. Don't believe me? Go sit in a 2013 Charger or 300.

 

[kitatech]

Having sat in and driven new US makers' cars when new they all seem nice and tight...

It would be interesting to used car buyers like myself to see a survey of repair history AND fit and finish (often lacking in such surveys) to compare US/import cars AFTER 100k miles and 8 years...

 

[ProchargeMe]

Domestic cars have definitely come a long way but if you haven't noticed, most of our cars are influenced and/or based off of foreign engineering and technology. I wouldn't say domestic is better, it's 2013 and we can just now hang with the big boys. Cars are NOT cheaper at all though.

 

[MagickMan]

Unless you're looking for special features in a car, like for instance the Nissan Leaf or the Toyota Prius is pretty unique on the market, it doesn't make much sense IMO to buy foreign cars. Reasons...

1. Domestic carmakers have closed the quality gap that existed in the 1990's, and so now they're as-good as foreign cars.

2. They're by and large cheaper

3. They're by and large easier to repair and cheaper to repair.

Pretty simple, no? There are some nationalistic bonus points for buying a Ford or Chevy, but rationally, it makes more sense to buy domestic cars today than foreign. Even foreign cars made in the USA, like the Camry, still source significantly more parts from overseas than domestic cars IIRC, making them more expensive again, to repair over the long haul.

I prefer the styling of European cars.

/thread

 

[NutBucket]

Again, people talking about Chrysler fit and finish really need to go drive some 2012 and 2013s and come back and report. Better than Honda, Toyota, now. Don't believe me? Go sit in a 2013 Charger or 300.

That's one example.

Is a Dart better made than a Civic?

Is a 200 better made than an Accord?

Is a T&C better made than an Odyssey?

I challenge you to honestly answer yes to those three questions.

 

[CraigRT]

We all have our reasons.
I bought Honda because the company I worked for was partnered with Honda, also my car is made in Alliston, Ontario, and Civics selling = jobs for me, my friends and others.

Say what you want but every situation is different. Honda's cease to sell all of a sudden, thousands and thousands of people in Ontario alone lose their jobs.

On top of all that, this brand has better resale value.

 

[heymrdj]

That's one example.

Is a Dart better made than a Civic?

Is a 200 better made than an Accord?

Is a T&C better made than an Odyssey?

I challenge you to honestly answer yes to those three questions.

I'll answer it for you. I have used a 2013 Civic EX-L (as a loaner) and own a 2012 Civic LX. GF owns a 2013 Dart Limited with the 2.0. Dart wins hands down easily. Dart has some agressive sound, tighter handling, and much better power band than the civic. Running I-24 over Monteagle was entertaining to hear the Civic run over 5k to maintain speed. Same route with the 6-speed DSG in the Dart really shines. Nav system in the Dart (a true Garmin system) is leaps and bounds over the Civic's. Mood lightening and soft touch dash are just more checks over the civic. The dart's cup holders and everything (including for rear seat passengers!!) are illuminated by soft white LED's at night making over night runs over the interstate much more comfortable. Also you shouldn't need to buy a higher end Civic just to get 4 cup holders (IE 2 cup holders in the back seats instead of 0). Has more room than the civic as well in all measurements. In the Dart, it's like they actually considered that the rear passengers might like to be treated as more than carry on cargo.

I have been in both the 2013 Odyssey and T&C's. I can't say with certainty that the crown would go to the T&C, but i'm pretty sure in price/performance the T&C is an amazing vehicle and I would consider it big time if I were looking for a minivan I'd definitely give it a run.

You would be hard pressed to find *any* vehicle that beats the 2013 300 in its class.

 

[JulesMaximus]

I'll answer it for you. I have used a 2013 Civic EX-L (as a loaner) and own a 2012 Civic LX. GF owns a 2013 Dart Limited with the 2.0. Dart wins hands down easily. Dart has some agressive sound, tighter handling, and much better power band than the civic. Running I-24 over Monteagle was entertaining to hear the Civic run over 5k to maintain speed. Same route with the 6-speed DSG in the Dart really shines. Nav system in the Dart (a true Garmin system) is leaps and bounds over the Civic's. Mood lightening and soft touch dash are just more checks over the civic. The dart's cup holders and everything (including for rear seat passengers!!) are illuminated by soft white LED's at night making over night runs over the interstate much more comfortable. Also you shouldn't need to buy a higher end Civic just to get 4 cup holders (IE 2 cup holders in the back seats instead of 0). Has more room than the civic as well in all measurements. In the Dart, it's like they actually considered that the rear passengers might like to be treated as more than carry on cargo.

I have been in both the 2013 Odyssey and T&C's. I can't say with certainty that the crown would go to the T&C, but i'm pretty sure in price/performance the T&C is an amazing vehicle and I would consider it big time if I were looking for a minivan I'd definitely give it a run.

You would be hard pressed to find *any* vehicle that beats the 2013 300 in its class.

19mpg city. Yeah, I'm gonna pass on that. :thumbsdown:

So, what have we learned from this thread? That is does actually make sense to buy foreign cars.

 

[heymrdj]

19mpg city. Yeah, I'm gonna pass on that. :thumbsdown:

That's no different for any large luxury car. The extra money to gas is well worth the comfort and size for me and my passengers (Expedition Eddie Bauer owner as many here probably known).

Only one that did good was the Lacrosse but that was the 4cyl version. The 6cyl (which is still the weakest of the lineup) only managed 17 city.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Buick_LaCrosse/

 

[JulesMaximus]

That's no different for any large luxury car. The extra money to gas is well worth the comfort and size for me and my passengers (Expedition Eddie Bauer owner as many here probably known).

Only one that did good was the Lacrosse but that was the 4cyl version. The 6cyl (which is still the weakest of the lineup) only managed 17 city.

http://usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/cars-trucks/Buick_LaCrosse/

For me that's an extra $2400 a year in gasoline. My car is plenty comfortable and spacious plus it gets 41mpg city.

 

[heymrdj]

For me that's an extra $2400 a year in gasoline. My car is plenty comfortable and spacious plus it gets 41mpg city.

Ok Alke.

It would be much better to just say that your can't afford more and that you're comfortable with what you have, than to think that your purchase is applicable to everyone. You have a Camry Hybrid XLE don't you? Which is only a midsize vehicle.

Only a 7" touch screen (my tablet is bigger)
I'm pretty sure their NAV isn't Garmin
Only 4 way passenger seats
No heated/cooled rear seats
No AWD option
Drab performance coupled with a CVT

And that's just going off of a spec sheet, review sites aren't even that nice. If you want to compare your vehicle to the large car class, at least come in with an Avalon Hybrid XLE. As it is you're just comparing a smaller car that you could afford that doesn't even compare to the aforementioned competitor (300).

But I'm glad for you the Camry is big enough. I've made the mistake of getting a car too small (Civic) which makes the Expedition come out of the stable extremely often. No one wants to ride 16 hours in a Civic unless they're too poor.

 

[JulesMaximus]

Ok Alke.

It would be much better to just say that your can't afford more and that you're comfortable with what you have, than to think that your purchase is applicable to everyone. You have a Camry Hybrid XLE don't you? Which is only a midsize vehicle.

Only a 7" touch screen (my tablet is bigger)
I'm pretty sure their NAV isn't Garmin
Only 4 way passenger seats
No heated/cooled rear seats
No AWD option
Drab performance coupled with a CVT

And that's just going off of a spec sheet, review sites aren't even that nice. If you want to compare your vehicle to the large car class, at least come in with an Avalon Hybrid XLE. As it is you're just comparing a smaller car that you could afford that doesn't even compare to the aforementioned competitor (300).

But I'm glad for you the Camry is big enough. I've made the mistake of getting a car too small (Civic) which makes the Expedition come out of the stable extremely often. No one wants to ride 16 hours in a Civic unless they're too poor.

LOL! Too poor? I was looking at a $38,000 Mercedes coupe just a month before I bought this car and a Lexus GS350 the month prior to that (the GS350 will probably be my wife's next car).

My last car was a midsize and I drove that for 10 years. WTF do I need a bigger car for?

I wanted something that I didn't have to fill up every 4 days. That's why I bought the Camry Hybrid. Not because I couldn't afford a bigger car.

The only American car that competes is the Fusion Hybrid and that was several thousand dollars more expensive comparably equipped and my last experience at a Ford dealer put me off so bad that I didn't even bother to test drive the Fusion.

I did drive the new Avalon but the Hybrid version of that car costs $10k more than the Camry. Wasn't worth it to me. It is more comfortable for sure but not that much more comfortable. I spend 2 hours a day in my car and find the Camry to be perfectly fine for commuting. All the seats are very comfortable and there is plenty of room in the back for 2 adults to ride comfortably for many hours.

I have zero need for an Expedition Freddy Krueger Edition.