It's all Greek to me!

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shortylickens

No Lifer
Jul 15, 2003
80,287
17,079
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The Greeks did this to themselves as it was they who sought out the advice of GS and GS happily offered it for a fee. Its what they do and as I've stated before GS isn't responsible for teaching ethics or morals to a foreign government and its leaders. Furthermore the Greek government has a long recorded history of spending beyond their means and burying their nation in debt with gimmicks and tricks. Even a cursory glance at Greece's economic history shows that it has been a nation of dead beats and crooked politicians for a very long time.

 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,372
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I don't think you understand how fucked Greece is if they default. They will be cut off from credit markets for at least 5 years, maybe longer. They are currently running massive deficits and without the ability to borrow from foreign investors they will have to impose austerity anyway to balance the budget or just print money leading to run away inflation.

They're fucked whether or not they default. A default is the end result of their unsustainable policies, but it will also clear away the existing debt so that future economic surplus can be used for actual growth and benefit of Greece. Doing all kinds of accounting tricks to avoid a default is merely a refusal to acknowledge the unsustainable nature of their past decisions which got them in trouble in the first place. How exactly is the Greek economy supposed to "grow out of it" if the bailouts only further put them in debt along with austerity measures aimed at servicing the ever-increasing cost of that debt?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,628
50,842
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I don't think you understand how fucked Greece is if they default. They will be cut off from credit markets for at least 5 years, maybe longer. They are currently running massive deficits and without the ability to borrow from foreign investors they will have to impose austerity anyway to balance the budget or just print money leading to run away inflation.

Argentina defaulted on their debts and has had excellent economic performance afterwards. They had a brief (and severe) dip right when it happened, followed by strong growth.
 

the DRIZZLE

Platinum Member
Sep 6, 2007
2,956
1
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Argentina defaulted on their debts and has had excellent economic performance afterwards. They had a brief (and severe) dip right when it happened, followed by strong growth.

Argentina is a commodity driven economy so commodity prices have a far bigger impact on growth than any policy decisions. They also still have 20% inflation which is going to catch up with them eventually. Most economists and investors consider Brazil to be much more attractive because the government is much more responsible. This is part of the reason Brazil has been more successful at diversifying away from commodities.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,628
50,842
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Argentina is a commodity driven economy so commodity prices have a far bigger impact on growth than any policy decisions. They also still have 20% inflation which is going to catch up with them eventually. Most economists and investors consider Brazil to be much more attractive because the government is much more responsible. This is part of the reason Brazil has been more successful at diversifying away from commodities.

I'm not saying that Argentina is perfect, but their overall performance is superior to other highly indebted countries that have resorted to hard core austerity instead of default.
 
May 11, 2008
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Short version? Greece's leaders wanted in the EU. Goldman Sachs had a plan for them to profit from that would misrepresent Greece's debt and help them get in the EU.

(Sound familiar with Wall Street demanding bad mortgages they could profit from?)

It worked. Before long it was clear about Greece's problems.

They have tried to address the problems onthe backs of the people, with 'austerity'.

The people don't care for that solution and it's being resisted.

As usual there are the wealthy interests and there are the people's interests and they are at odds.

Greece has been a member of the EU since 1981.
I do not know if Goldman Sachs was helping Greece at the time. I doubt that.
I do not have all the details but i do know that Goldman Sachs has been busy with Greece since (i think) 2002. Lookup: swap transactions + Goldman Sachs + Greece

Greece has been receiving subsidy since the beginning that Greece entered the EU. A certain wealthy dutch person at the time warned that the only thing Greece will ever export is inflation. He got it right, i am sad to say.
Greece had and has only tourism. For as far as i know Greece had subsidized agriculture. Just as the other PIGS countries that have financial problems.

To others who are anti socialism :
Socialism is not bad, but you need people who wish to have a social safety net but are also willing to not use it whenever they get the chance to be independent, to work, to become financially stable. However, people with a opportunistic culture and background will take advantage and will abuse the social safety net. Thus socialism will fail without an almost protestant view on life, it seems. Without the faith and believe that hard work and the gratification after that hard work is good. Without the faith and believes that the natural sciences are the key to prosperity.
 
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mshan

Diamond Member
Nov 16, 2004
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http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000055467 (start around 9 minute mark, but focus particularly on Rebecca Patterson's comments starting around the 11 minute mark, and then 18 minute mark).

Rick Santelli shedding light on why Italian bond market reflects overall Euro-angst (basically only bond futures markets in Europe are in Germany and Italy): http://video.cnbc.com/gallery/?video=3000054854 (I think around 1:20 point)

And Morningstar's take: http://www.morningstar.com/Cover/videoCenter.aspx?id=440118





edit (11/7): multiple commentators on tv have said that 6.3% / 6.5% Italian bond yields are worrisome, but that 7% is the precipice where things can become unsustainable and potentially start to spiral out of control. Melissa Lee this morning said based on timeline of similar situations in past, she thinks it will take one or two weeks for Italian bond yields to reach that level (end of first to second week of November).
 
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May 11, 2008
20,260
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The euro is going to fail because the EU members are to soft.

It seems that there is around 200 billions euros in swiss bank accounts.
Those 200 billion euros are owned by the rich Greek elite.
Assuming that it is true:

That money can be taken by the eu members to create a fund to pay the debts towards the other EU members and to start forcing Greece into an industrial country. That is the only way they will be independent.


http://www.presseurop.eu/en/content...bild-reveals-200-billion-greek-capital-flight

Bild reveals €200 billion Greek capital flight
Bild, 19 October 2011

Unsparing in its criticism of Greece, Bild launches another broadside against its favourite target: "Greeks stash 200 billion euros in Swiss bank accounts!" headlines the Berlin tabloid, whose influence on the Chancellorship is an open secret. "While Europe struggles to help Greece with multi-billion euro bailout plans, more and more Greeks are transferring their money out of the country” to avoid the consequences of a crash in the national economy, announces Bild. “Stop the capital flight!” insists the tabloid’s editorial, which lambasts the Greek elite for refusing to introduce a tax on money transfers or penalties for tax evasion.

This capital should be tracked down in Switzerland, remarks Financial Times Deutschland, which argues that "Switzerland should extradite the Greek money.” The daily reports that Bern is preparing to hold negotiations with Athens to prevent the flight of Greek capital, which will be inspired agreements already concluded with Germany and the UK: the goal will be to tax revenues generated by capital belonging to Greek clients. In exchange, Greece will drop plans to pursue tax evaders and implicated banks. "Athens is hoping that this measure will help to calm social dissent in the country, where the government has been criticised for placing the bulk of the burden of the crisis on the middle and working classes,” explains FTD.

If it is true, it seems that Switzerland and Greece are in negotiations about Greek money in banks of Switzerland. It is about Greek rich folks not paying taxes(money laundering). The EU should just seize all that money and not wait for the Greek rich thiefs to give some spare change back. They made a mess of it. They must pay.
 
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