It's anyone following the flint water issue?

[DrDoug]

Holy strawman argument batman who said that?

My point is that the city collapsing was a known problem and the governor was supposed to be dealing with it. That's not relevant to this story. That's a separate issue from the decisions we are talking about. Decisions that were made to save money to repay bondholder debts that will end up poisoning people and costing the state much, much more. For some reason some people keep pointing at the past when the city controlled their government and are ignoring the state being responsible for the decision that led to the poisoning.

It isn't the fault of the city that they were poisoned, the state bears that responsibility.

 

[Genx87]

My point is that the city collapsing was a known problem and the governor was supposed to be dealing with it. That's not relevant to this story. That's a separate issue from the decisions we are talking about. Decisions that were made to save money to repay bondholder debts that will end up poisoning people and costing the state much, much more. For some reason some people keep pointing at the past when the city controlled their government and are ignoring the state being responsible for the decision that led to the poisoning.

It isn't the fault of the city that they were poisoned, the state bears that responsibility.

My response was to a guy who was bashing republicans as usurping democracy by placing the state in control of a financially strapped city. Placing cities into receivership is a bi-partisan policy and has nothing to do with one party. And the alternative is worse. So I am not sure how or why you bothered to respond to me at all.

All of us can agree having lead in the water supply is a horribly bad policy.

 

[boomerang]

Don't even try to give me a history lesson. Talk about diversion...lol! I am fully aware of the history behind Flint (I happen to be a motorhead) and history has nothing to do with what Snyder allowed to happen under his watch.

Oh, I see. It's like me and Castroville, CA. I really like artichoke's so I know everything about Castroville.

 

[Exterous]

That's right, $100 a day to detox the water of lead was too much for Republicans to pay, they preferred to knowingly poison the people to save a $100 a day.

A penny a day for 10 people was too much for Republican governor Rick Snyder.

Learn something about the subject before you open your mouth.

I find your second statement ironic given your comments on the issue. First its $100 a day to add additives to the water to lower its corrosiveness not to detox the existing water. So your statement is factually incorrect.

Second given the millions Flint and the State has spent over the last few years on water improvement (At least $5 million over the last 1.5 years) saying that Republicans wouldn't spend $37,000 on treating lead issues shows an ignorance of the issue at hand - and probably terrible reporting.

The city\state never held back from spending money to improve the water. The city took steps to deal with water issues as they came up adding various additives when issues appeared and taking steps to improve the treatment plant or flush the system.

There is some debate as to whether the DEQ followed the EPA testing measures but they did follow the corrosive control procedures. The Flint incident has caused the EPA to revisit and rewrite those guidelines.

This all started because Flint was paying an obscene amount to the Detroit Water Authority for their water. Prices that were helping bankrupt the city due to the long distances involved and the fees charged. Complicating the matter was that there was only a single pipe supplying the city. That pipe has been damaged more than once which left 250,000 people without access to water but the DWA won't add redundancy without at 30 year contract at incredibly high rates.

So Flint decided to connect to the Keregondi Water Authority in 2017. After this announcement the Detroit Water Authority notified the City of Flint that their water would be shut off in 2014 under their existing agreement - 3 years before Flint was ready for it. DWA was willing to sell Flint water in the short term but at a vastly higher rate (estimates are in the $5-7 million more per year).

This sent the city of Flint scrambling as the city really can't afford an extra $5-7M without major cutting to other key services (Fire, police, schools etc). One of the possible sources was the Flint river. The river was tested for potability and was found to meet the Safe Water drinking act standards (I am assuming this was after the treatment plan was considered).

When some issues started appearing (but before the lead showed up) the DWA offered to let Flint reconnect - but for $4 million in reconnection fees and $900,000 a month in other fees in addition to actual usage fees

Balking at $11 million in annual fees and $4million in one time fees Flint brought in outside consultants to try and resolve the issue with fairly generous funding. The DWA did agree to drop the reconnection fee later on but not the monthly fees. (This was before the lead was reported).

Governor Rick Snyder also approved $2 million for water treatment plant improvements.

In February the city meets its goals in improving levels of contaminants like TTHM so there appears to be progress in resolving the issues although $1.6 million is allocated for even further changes to improve the water quality.

The levels of TTHM likely adds a level of complexity of the issue. TTHM results from using too many chemicals to treat the water. I see some reports wanting to know why Flint just didn't add more chemicals to the water. Water treatment chemicals are a fine balancing act so you don't want to just dump more in unless you know exactly what you are going after and what the cause is. (And the issue was not lead levels in the water at or near the plant. The issue was corrosiveness causing lead leaching near some taps. So dumping a crap ton of additives to the water at the plant to deal with lead wouldn't fix the issue at the tap)

Keep in mind that the water was continually being tested by the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality and those results did not report high levels of lead. We may find that there was a culture of laziness or misinformation permeating the DEQ but the reports given to the Governor and the public showed no lead issues

From everything I have read the issue really stems from a single, tragically difficult issue to find. In 10% of tested Flint households water at the tap was found to contain high levels of lead. If the statistics are correct (which is a tough call. DEQ studies show lower levels. DHHS and third parties show 10%. Some reports question the 10% but do not give percentages), then even random testing would likely not show an overall lead issue. If there is no lead at the plant, no lead at the interim testing sites and no lead at the faucets does that show there is a lead issue?

Given the large amounts the city and state were willing to spend on the issue I think its pretty clear that, if they had known the exact type of problem and the needed $100 per day fix that they absolutely would have done it.

Of interesting note a Snyder appointed representative (back before this issue started) seems to be squaring off with the DEQ over this issue. We may find that the DEQ was withholding information or releasing misleading information. Also the Virginia Tech team has publicly thanked the Governor and his Task Force for helping them with the issue - including getting access to information from the DEQ that was wrongfully withheld by the DEQ.

As for how long it took to Declare a State of Emergency - the governor, legally, has to wait for it to be requested before he can respond.

FWIW I did not vote for Snyder but I think blaming him for this is a stretch (Unless something comes out like an email where he says "I know all about those lead issues and I don't care). It is looking like some people at or previously at the DEQ are in for some rough times ahead and, likely, deservedly so.

Various links:
http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/nancy-kaffer/2015/10/03/life-flint-sickening-water/73219988/
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2016/01/05/us-attorneys-office-investigating-lead-flint-water/78303960/
http://flintwaterstudy.org/
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/11/18/flint-lead-problems-raised-national-water-hearing/75990848/
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html#0

 

[NesuD]

Don't even try to give me a history lesson. Talk about diversion...lol! I am fully aware of the history behind Flint (I happen to be a motorhead) and history has nothing to do with what Snyder allowed to happen under his watch. There has already been one resignation from his cabinet over this clusterfuck and his head is on the platter too. As the old saying goes, if you break it, you bought it. Snyder took control of the city, put his people in charge and what happened on his watch is his (and their) responsibility. The buck literally stops at his office. The history you are bringing up has no relevance to this incident. This was a bad decision that has led to many people being poisoned on his watch so stop defending him.

I have no problem reading and comprehending what I have read, you do. Keep blaming me for your problems though, I know it's the conservative way. It's always the fault of dumb liberals and I ain't a damned liberal. I am a registered small "i" independent and I'm sick and tired of stupid conservatives who can't accept responsibility for their actions. The Democrats have their own problems but they pale in comparison to what has happened to the Republican party. I used to vote for whichever one was the best candidate but it's been years since I've been able to bring myself to vote for a Republican.

They're that fucked up. Stop enabling them.

What he said ^^^^^

 

[NesuD]

I find your second statement ironic given your comments on the issue. First its $100 a day to add additives to the water to lower its corrosiveness not to detox the existing water. So your statement is factually incorrect.

Second given the millions Flint and the State has spent over the last few years on water improvement (At least $5 million over the last 1.5 years) saying that Republicans wouldn't spend $37,000 on treating lead issues shows an ignorance of the issue at hand - and probably terrible reporting.

The city\state never held back from spending money to improve the water. The city took steps to deal with water issues as they came up adding various additives when issues appeared and taking steps to improve the treatment plant or flush the system.

There is some debate as to whether the DEQ followed the EPA testing measures but they did follow the corrosive control procedures. The Flint incident has caused the EPA to revisit and rewrite those guidelines.

This all started because Flint was paying an obscene amount to the Detroit Water Authority for their water. Prices that were helping bankrupt the city due to the long distances involved and the fees charged. Complicating the matter was that there was only a single pipe supplying the city. That pipe has been damaged more than once which left 250,000 people without access to water but the DWA won't add redundancy without at 30 year contract at incredibly high rates.

So Flint decided to connect to the Keregondi Water Authority in 2017. After this announcement the Detroit Water Authority notified the City of Flint that their water would be shut off in 2014 under their existing agreement - 3 years before Flint was ready for it. DWA was willing to sell Flint water in the short term but at a vastly higher rate (estimates are in the $5-7 million more per year).

This sent the city of Flint scrambling as the city really can't afford an extra $5-7M without major cutting to other key services (Fire, police, schools etc). One of the possible sources was the Flint river. The river was tested for potability and was found to meet the Safe Water drinking act standards (I am assuming this was after the treatment plan was considered).

When some issues started appearing (but before the lead showed up) the DWA offered to let Flint reconnect - but for $4 million in reconnection fees and $900,000 a month in other fees in addition to actual usage fees

Balking at $11 million in annual fees and $4million in one time fees Flint brought in outside consultants to try and resolve the issue with fairly generous funding. The DWA did agree to drop the reconnection fee later on but not the monthly fees. (This was before the lead was reported).

Governor Rick Snyder also approved $2 million for water treatment plant improvements.

In February the city meets its goals in improving levels of contaminants like TTHM so there appears to be progress in resolving the issues although $1.6 million is allocated for even further changes to improve the water quality.

The levels of TTHM likely adds a level of complexity of the issue. TTHM results from using too many chemicals to treat the water. I see some reports wanting to know why Flint just didn't add more chemicals to the water. Water treatment chemicals are a fine balancing act so you don't want to just dump more in unless you know exactly what you are going after and what the cause is. (And the issue was not lead levels in the water at or near the plant. The issue was corrosiveness causing lead leaching near some taps. So dumping a crap ton of additives to the water at the plant to deal with lead wouldn't fix the issue at the tap)

Keep in mind that the water was continually being tested by the Michigan Department of Environmental Quality and those results did not report high levels of lead. We may find that there was a culture of laziness or misinformation permeating the DEQ but the reports given to the Governor and the public showed no lead issues

From everything I have read the issue really stems from a single, tragically difficult issue to find. In 10% of tested Flint households water at the tap was found to contain high levels of lead. If the statistics are correct (which is a tough call. DEQ studies show lower levels. DHHS and third parties show 10%. Some reports question the 10% but do not give percentages), then even random testing would likely not show an overall lead issue. If there is no lead at the plant, no lead at the interim testing sites and no lead at the faucets does that show there is a lead issue?

Given the large amounts the city and state were willing to spend on the issue I think its pretty clear that, if they had known the exact type of problem and the needed $100 per day fix that they absolutely would have done it.

Of interesting note a Snyder appointed representative (back before this issue started) seems to be squaring off with the DEQ over this issue. We may find that the DEQ was withholding information or releasing misleading information. Also the Virginia Tech team has publicly thanked the Governor and his Task Force for helping them with the issue - including getting access to information from the DEQ that was wrongfully withheld by the DEQ.

As for how long it took to Declare a State of Emergency - the governor, legally, has to wait for it to be requested before he can respond.

FWIW I did not vote for Snyder but I think blaming him for this is a stretch

Various links:
http://www.freep.com/story/opinion/columnists/nancy-kaffer/2015/10/03/life-flint-sickening-water/73219988/
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2016/01/05/us-attorneys-office-investigating-lead-flint-water/78303960/
http://flintwaterstudy.org/
http://www.freep.com/story/news/local/michigan/2015/11/18/flint-lead-problems-raised-national-water-hearing/75990848/
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html#0

You comprehensively explained the true story. From an area resident this is dead on. It is definately looking like the DEQ screwed up. But hey lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story.

 

[boomerang]

Exterous, thank you for taking the time to try and educate some of the people in this thread. I truly wish I had the patience to do so. :thumbsup:

 

[Jaskalas]

So the crime against our people begins with Detroit Water Authority putting the squeeze on Flint. Thereby forcing them into desperate measures.

How many other locations in America are having difficulty with clean water? It might shock Americans to learn that fresh water is not an infinite resource to be consumed at our leisure. That it can be quite restricted in some regions where demand is high and availability is low. That our water resources will continue to diminish in the face of an ever growing population (immigration).

 

[boomerang]

So the crime against our people begins with Detroit Water Authority putting the squeeze on Flint. Thereby forcing them into desperate measures.

Technically, it started with Flint deciding to cease using water from Detroit. That's what set it all in motion. Detroit, which had decided that raising water rates exponentially was a good means to help them get out of their own ginormous financial problems, then got their panties in a twist and cut off water to Flint years earlier than was originally planned. That meant Flint had to scramble for water and the Flint River was the only source. The pipeline project from Lake Huron that would serve Flint was years away from completion.

Detroit and Flint are highly depressed areas. There is no way that Flint residents could shoulder the burden of the greatly increased water rates that would have resulted from the rate increases put in place by the city of Detroit. The whole scenario was just plain bad from the start and continues to be bad.

Flint only has "bad water" because of the measures they were forced into. So, you're not in the slightest wrong, just not from a factual perspective totally correct.

BTW, Detroit put the squeeze on a ton of communities besides Flint. Look at the map and you can get a pretty good picture of how large an area the Detroit Water Dept. serves. They felt they had a whole lot of people over a barrel. The communities/townships in white all use either private or community wells for their water as do I.

http://www.dwsd.org/pages_n/map_water_supply.html

 

[MongGrel]

Honestly think of the lawsuits lead can take years to show damage in children, its known small amounts of exposure to kids can impact intelligence and I believe its diagnosis is pretty vague.

Impacts intelligence and increase violent tendencies I believe. Lead is a bit like roid rage, from everything I'd ever read.

Have still seen some debate around how it was involved in paint in the past of course, pushed as being called Ethol in gas in the past etc,etc.

And is not something that leaves the system over time, unless I am mistaken.

GM and the Oil industry in general did studies once upon a time pushing leaded gas and legalizing it when it was on the verge of being banned nationally long ago, it finally happened.

 

[hal2kilo]

I saw a story about this on Rachael Maddow. Wow, they can even help themselves. Looks to me that the brain damage has already been done (I mean this seriously, not some dog whistle racist comment.)

 

[Blanky]

Clean water is an imperative that, when compromised, should see the men responsible condemned.

It's so absurd it went well past funny a long time ago.

You can't mess around with this shit. I would be livid if I had kids jacked up on lead (albeit it 2-3 X allowed levels is not the end of the world if it is short term AFAIK, and lead levels do leave over time. If I'm wrong and permanent damage has in fact been done we should have a public hanging) due to government ineptness.

 

[stlc8tr]

When some issues started appearing (but before the lead showed up) the DWA offered to let Flint reconnect - but for $4 million in reconnection fees and $900,000 a month in other fees in addition to actual usage fees
...
http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html#0

Thanks for the summary. The mlive.com link mentions that Detroit was willing to waive the $4M fee after initially asking for it.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html#12

 

[mysticjbyrd]

then you wont be voting for Bernie who is like a billion years old.

Stipulating that the current generation of senior citizens are more predisposed to this mentality doesn't imply they are all that way.

 

[Knowing]

I mentioned it a week ago.

There's also methane gas escaping from a storage space in California. Residents of LA County are breathing (extra) trace amounts of carcinogens and enjoying spectacular sunsets.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exfJ8VPQDTY

What a time to be running a well regulated public utility monopoly.

 

[OverVolt]

Trying to be cheap on Flint's water supply will end up costing the state of Michigan (and probably the country as a whole) a ton more money than it would have to fix it properly in the first place.

And this is why you avoid anything on the decline.

 

[Exterous]

You comprehensively explained the true story. From an area resident this is dead on. It is definately looking like the DEQ screwed up. But hey lets not let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Exterous, thank you for taking the time to try and educate some of the people in this thread. I truly wish I had the patience to do so. :thumbsup:

NP. Its a complicated issue but it deserves to be understood so it doesn't happen again. It seems awfully quite in here now but hopefully people took the time to read my summary. Applying blind rhetoric and blame obscures the issue. Its good to see that the EPA is revising their requirements and that people are dedicated to figuring out what the heck was going on at the DEQ and DHHS

Thanks for the summary. The mlive.com link mentions that Detroit was willing to waive the $4M fee after initially asking for it.

http://www.mlive.com/news/flint/index.ssf/2015/10/how_the_flint_water_crisis_eme.html#12

Right - which is why I noted it in my post:

The DWA did agree to drop the reconnection fee later on but not the monthly fees. (This was before the lead was reported).

 

[sportage]

From what I understand, the governor still refuses to ask FEMA to step in and help with bottled water. The hard nosed Governor Snyder (a Republican by the way, surprise surprise) is one of those that refuses to allow any government agency to help out.
FEMA is at the door, knocking, with clean water in hand.
Governor Snyder (a Republican by the way. Surprise surprise) is not taking the call.
All FEMA can do is stand by and watch, wait, hope Governor Snyder's (a Republican by the way) comes to his senses. Which considering* is highly doubtful.
I wonder where Governor Snyder's (a Republican by the way) where his water is coming from?
Governor Snyder (a Republican by the way) was last heard saying, "let them drink Perrier!"

*Governor Snyder's (a Republican by the way)

 

[Exterous]

From what I understand, the governor still refuses to ask FEMA to step in and help with bottled water.

You should cite your source if you actually think Snyder is refusing to involve FEMA. Given that FEMA is involved in distributing bottled water to residents of Flint and they are in Flint to help monitor the situation I am going to go ahead and call bullshit on your statement though

http://detroit.suntimes.com/det-business/7/77/348473/flint-mayor-declares-state-of-emergency-fema-sends-28000-liters-of-water
http://nbc25news.com/news/local/fema-in-michigan-to-monitor-flint-water-crisis

But don't let facts or a 2 second Google search get in the way or your bias though

 

[Pulsar]

My point is that the city collapsing was a known problem and the governor was supposed to be dealing with it. That's not relevant to this story. That's a separate issue from the decisions we are talking about. Decisions that were made to save money to repay bondholder debts that will end up poisoning people and costing the state much, much more. For some reason some people keep pointing at the past when the city controlled their government and are ignoring the state being responsible for the decision that led to the poisoning.

It isn't the fault of the city that they were poisoned, the state bears that responsibility.

You are embarrassing in your claim of knowing what's going on, when you really don't. You're a gearhead. Congratulations. That means exactly zero when it comes to what's gone on in the city of Flint. Especially when you're talking to someone (boomerang) who's been around it for a huge chunk of time - and now myself who lived there for over a decade, and has lived within 30 miles of it my whole life. I lived through GM closing down 42 manufacturing plants in and surrounding Flint. The plants where I worked are now parking lots filled with weeds, and GM can't sell them because they're so badly polluted that it's going to end up being a superfund site if GM lets it.

It's pointless to go into the history of Flint. It's a sad history that deals with entitlement, handouts, corruption, and a total lack of leadership. It shares an entry with "Detroit" in the dictionary.

Here's the 'facts'. The Emergency Manager and a number of other folks got the idea to get off the Detroit Water Authority. Detroit Water has a whole slew of it's own issues - including the fact that they're out of money and can't keep the system running. It was clear they could save a huge chunk of money (and finally will) when they start handling the water from Huron.

It was a good idea.

In the interim, they chose to take water from the Flint River. You must understand the clean, good tasting drinking water can be made from raw sewage. So regardless of the state of the river, the temporary change to it should have made no difference - had the water been TREATED correctly.

A series of emails has made it very clear that the DEQ (the Department of Environmental Quality) knew the water was not up to the standards that it should have been. A number of emails circulated between these officials. They were told, by the head of the DEQ that resigned, that they didn't need to fix the water problem. Why?

Because the timing of the required water testing was such that they would switch over to the new clean water source before the mandated testing was complete and the treatment systems would have been installed. He directed his personnel not to worry about it. He fought the United States EPA official who was warning him about it. He basically said - The law says that two rounds of tests have to say it's bad.... and I'm not doing anything until they do. He being the Michigan DEQ head. Then he directed the people working for him not to worry about it because by the time the testing was done, and redone, to meet all the standards, it would be to late to bother treating the water because the new system would be online.

This had two do with ONE individual - the head of the Michigan DEQ - abusing his position. I hope he gets strung up, sued, and thrown in prison for his actions.

But your continuing bullshit about Synder, etc etc..... it just standard partisian hackery.

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Impacts intelligence and increase violent tendencies I believe. Lead is a bit like roid rage, from everything I'd ever read.

Have still seen some debate around how it was involved in paint in the past of course, pushed as being called Ethol in gas in the past etc,etc.

And is not something that leaves the system over time, unless I am mistaken.

GM and the Oil industry in general did studies once upon a time pushing leaded gas and legalizing it when it was on the verge of being banned nationally long ago, it finally happened.

**if I remember correctly dried lead paint tasted sweet/sugary that's why it attracted kids.
Weird thought is could this town be like a civil war town whose brigade led the charge and no young people are alive? Could this town have some kind of extra stupid people running around in 12 years, could there be an epidemic of liver failure in 15 year old?

 

[Fanatical Meat]

Technically, it started with Flint deciding to cease using water from Detroit. That's what set it all in motion. Detroit, which had decided that raising water rates exponentially was a good means to help them get out of their own ginormous financial problems, then got their panties in a twist and cut off water to Flint years earlier than was originally planned. That meant Flint had to scramble for water and the Flint River was the only source. The pipeline project from Lake Huron that would serve Flint was years away from completion.

Detroit and Flint are highly depressed areas. There is no way that Flint residents could shoulder the burden of the greatly increased water rates that would have resulted from the rate increases put in place by the city of Detroit. The whole scenario was just plain bad from the start and continues to be bad.

Flint only has "bad water" because of the measures they were forced into. So, you're not in the slightest wrong, just not from a factual perspective totally correct.

BTW, Detroit put the squeeze on a ton of communities besides Flint. Look at the map and you can get a pretty good picture of how large an area the Detroit Water Dept. serves. They felt they had a whole lot of people over a barrel. The communities/townships in white all use either private or community wells for their water as do I.

http://www.dwsd.org/pages_n/map_water_supply.html

Simple explanation thank you Boomer its hard to decipher what went wrong from the news.
The lead is from the old pipes correct? Why would they use water that is corrosive or did the town not know?

 

[OverVolt]

My point is that the city collapsing was a known problem and the governor was supposed to be dealing with it. That's not relevant to this story. That's a separate issue from the decisions we are talking about. Decisions that were made to save money to repay bondholder debts that will end up poisoning people and costing the state much, much more. For some reason some people keep pointing at the past when the city controlled their government and are ignoring the state being responsible for the decision that led to the poisoning.

It isn't the fault of the city that they were poisoned, the state bears that responsibility.

The money didn't exists to properly fix the problem. Whaddya want them to do? I would say any number of people in a similar situation would all make the same decisions. Thats why you never want to put yourself in a situation like that.

This is simply fallout from Detroit being so poorly managed.

 

[cubby1223]

So the crime against our people begins with Detroit Water Authority putting the squeeze on Flint. Thereby forcing them into desperate measures.

How many other locations in America are having difficulty with clean water? It might shock Americans to learn that fresh water is not an infinite resource to be consumed at our leisure. That it can be quite restricted in some regions where demand is high and availability is low. That our water resources will continue to diminish in the face of an ever growing population (immigration).

That's why I don't want to ever move away from the great lakes. This is the best place to source fresh water in the world. They will never even come close to depletion in my lifetime.

 

[ivwshane]

Apparently the governor isn't interested in getting this problem solved. From what I've heard he had said that he is sending people door to door to hand out water and filters. The water they are handing out? Why it's the water that's been donated. How many filters have they handed out since this issue came up? About 13k out of 100k residents.

The governor certainly can't be blamed for creating this mess but he can certainly be blamed for his incompetence on handling it.