It's called the Sun...and it affects our climate

Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
It appears that we've been grossly underestimating the effect of the Sun's UV rays on our climate...and the evidence for external forcing mechanisms continues to grow stronger every day. This study is not conclusive due to limited data range...however it definitely gives us a little insight on just how really stupid it is to say 'the science is settled'.
"The thermal structure and composition of the atmosphere is determined fundamentally by the incoming solar irradiance. Radiation at ultraviolet wavelengths dissociates atmospheric molecules, initiating chains of chemical reactions—specifically those producing stratospheric ozone—and providing the major source of heating for the middle atmosphere, while radiation at visible and near-infrared wavelengths mainly reaches and warms the lower atmosphere and the Earth’s surface1. Thus the spectral composition of solar radiation is crucial in determining atmospheric structure, as well as surface temperature, and it follows that the response of the atmosphere to variations in solar irradiance depends on the spectrum2. Daily measurements of the solar spectrum between 0.2 µm and 2.4 µm, made by the Spectral Irradiance Monitor (SIM) instrument on the Solar Radiation and Climate Experiment (SORCE) satellite3 since April 2004, have revealed4 that over this declining phase of the solar cycle there was a four to six times larger decline in ultraviolet than would have been predicted on the basis of our previous understanding. This reduction was partially compensated in the total solar output by an increase in radiation at visible wavelengths. Here we show that these spectral changes appear to have led to a significant decline from 2004 to 2007 in stratospheric ozone below an altitude of 45 km, with an increase above this altitude. Our results, simulated with a radiative-photochemical model, are consistent with contemporaneous measurements of ozone from the Aura-MLS satellite, although the short time period makes precise attribution to solar effects difficult. We also show, using the SIM data, that solar radiative forcing of surface climate is out of phase with solar activity. Currently there is insufficient observational evidence to validate the spectral variations observed by SIM, or to fully characterize other solar cycles, but our findings raise the possibility that the effects of solar variability on temperature throughout the atmosphere may be contrary to current expectations."



Six times more warming caused by UV would mean that CO2 forcing isn't quite as bad as originally thought. This is potentially a huge paradigm shift in climate science.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
It appears that we've been grossly underestimating the effect of the Sun's UV rays on our climate...and the evidence for external forcing mechanisms continues to grow stronger every day. This study is not conclusive due to limited data range...however it definitely gives us a little insight on just how really stupid it is to say 'the science is settled'.
"The thermal structure and composition of the atmosphere is determined fundamentally by the incoming solar irradiance. Radiation at ultraviolet wavelengths dissociates atmospheric molecules, initiating chains of chemical reactions—specifically those producing stratospheric ozone—and providing the major source of heating for the middle atmosphere, while radiation at visible and near-infrared wavelengths mainly reaches and warms the lower atmosphere and the Earth’s surface1. Thus the spectral composition of solar radiation is crucial in determining atmospheric structure, as well as surface temperature, and it follows that the response of the atmosphere to variations in solar irradiance depends on the spectrum2. Daily measurements of the solar spectrum between 0.2 µm and 2.4 µm, made by the Spectral Irradiance Monitor (SIM) instrument on the Solar Radiation and Climate Experiment (SORCE) satellite3 since April 2004, have revealed4 that over this declining phase of the solar cycle there was a four to six times larger decline in ultraviolet than would have been predicted on the basis of our previous understanding. This reduction was partially compensated in the total solar output by an increase in radiation at visible wavelengths. Here we show that these spectral changes appear to have led to a significant decline from 2004 to 2007 in stratospheric ozone below an altitude of 45 km, with an increase above this altitude. Our results, simulated with a radiative-photochemical model, are consistent with contemporaneous measurements of ozone from the Aura-MLS satellite, although the short time period makes precise attribution to solar effects difficult. We also show, using the SIM data, that solar radiative forcing of surface climate is out of phase with solar activity. Currently there is insufficient observational evidence to validate the spectral variations observed by SIM, or to fully characterize other solar cycles, but our findings raise the possibility that the effects of solar variability on temperature throughout the atmosphere may be contrary to current expectations."



Six times more warming caused by UV would mean that CO2 forcing isn't quite as bad as originally thought. This is potentially a huge paradigm shift in climate science.
So, let's get this straight: These result are from a scientific study. Performed by scientists. And you, DSF, accept the results of this scientific study performed by scientists. However, if the results of a scientific study performed by scientists supported the notion that MMCC was real and significant, then you, DSF, would reject THOSE results.

Sounds totally reasonable to me.
 

CPA

Elite Member
Nov 19, 2001
30,322
4
0
So, let's get this straight: These result are from a scientific study. Performed by scientists. And you, DSF, accept the results of this scientific study performed by scientists. However, if the results of a scientific study performed by scientists supported the notion that MMCC was real and significant, then you, DSF, would reject THOSE results.

Sounds totally reasonable to me.

The difference is the type of "scientists" involved.
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
The difference is the type of "scientists" involved.
And we know which scientists are the "good scientists" because they're the ones that engage in studies that consistently produce anti-MMCC results. Have I got that right?
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
So, let's get this straight: These result are from a scientific study. Performed by scientists. And you, DSF, accept the results of this scientific study performed by scientists. However, if the results of a scientific study performed by scientists supported the notion that MMCC was real and significant, then you, DSF, would reject THOSE results.

Sounds totally reasonable to me.

Uh hu... and what have you been doing?
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
Uh hu... and what have you been doing?

I don't reject scientific studies of either kind. Both add to our body of knowledge. And I assume that the results of the present study will be incorporated into our overall understanding of climate.

As to what I ultimately believe, I almost always side with a strong scientific consensus - how could I rationally do otherwise, given that my personal knowledge of most fields of science is so limited? The only exception might be if the field of science in question were my own area of expertise.

Interestingly, though, most MMCC-deniers aren't climate scientists (or any other type of scientist, for that matter). Yet they selectively cite studies that they think are opposed to MMCC and reject studies that support MMCC. And they think they're being rational. Circle, meet reasoning.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
I don't reject scientific studies of either kind. Both add to our body of knowledge. And I assume that the results of the present study will be incorporated into our overall understanding of climate.

As to what I ultimately believe, I almost always side with a strong scientific consensus - how could I rationally do otherwise, given that my personal knowledge of most fields of science is so limited? The only exception might be if the field of science in question were my own area of expertise.

Interestingly, though, most MMCC-deniers aren't climate scientists (or any other type of scientist, for that matter). Yet they selectively cite studies that they think are opposed to MMCC and reject studies that support MMCC. And they think they're being rational. Circle, meet reasoning.

Hahahaha.... oh jeez... I'm sorry.

5 minutes of searching turned up what a self-indulgent prick you are:

This "both sides" stuff is ludicrous.

"Both sides" of an issue should be represented if there's significant support for both sides among qualified individuals. But if there's no significant support for one side of an issue, it's a DISTORTION to provide dissenting voices a forum. It would be like saying that in any discussion of the Holocaust, a historian MUST be included who's a Holocaust-denier because that's the "other side."

Well, anthropogenic climate change is kind of like that: I'm guessing that at least 95% of climatologist believe in significant anthropogenic climate change. If the anti-MMGW data ever reaches critical mass, climatologists will abandon MMGW in droves - that's how science works.

But until that happens, why would any of us non-climatologists want to hear fringe arguments about climate change? Are you interested in fringe arguments about the cause of AIDS? About who "REALLY" caused 9/11? How come you don't want to hear the "other side" of these issues whenever these issues are discussed?

That was your in response to somebody saying that they wanted to hear both sides of the argument... so basically what you were just telling me.

You don't give a shit about the truth, you made up your mind a long time ago.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
Its not WHATS UP DOC savage fan, its a matter that even Bugs Bunny, the famous Scientific Authority would not try to pass what you posted as scientific evidence that in any way discredits MMCC.

The 11 year solar cycle has been known for centuries, and when sunspots hit a minimum, its not surprising that the most energetic solar frequencies decrease at that 4x rate.

Your problem DSF, is that in that 2003-2007 period, we would expect to see the rate of arctic ice formation to increase, and other charted effects of MMCC to reverse during that period, and when they continued along unabated, any rational man has to conclude that small variations in solar output do not cause the set of outcomes referred to in MMCC.

DSF, I believe you are what ole Bugs Bunny referred to as "what a macaroon."
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
Hahahaha.... oh jeez... I'm sorry.

5 minutes of searching turned up what a self-indulgent prick you are:



That was your in response to somebody saying that they wanted to hear both sides of the argument... so basically what you were just telling me.

You don't give a shit about the truth, you made up your mind a long time ago.
You miss the point:

SELECTIVELY citing anti-MMCC studies is a distortion of science. If 95% of the studies support MMCC, then giving 50% "air time" to anti-MMCC studies provides a grossly distorted, highly misleading picture of what the scientific evidence is telling us.

This is why non-experts in the field have no business "deciding" what the truth is for themselves. Presumably, the scientific consensus in any field is a reflection of ALL the evidence, free from distortions.
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,560
8
0
Anti science circle jerk is anti science circle jerk....

I was on a ice breaker near Antarctica with a group of people listening to a lecture from a well known scientist. He showed us pictures of the shelf and the major Ice flows and how they have changed in the last 100 years... We were literally looking at the evidence..literally...
Guess what... about 4 morons kept insisting it was the volcanic activity happening way to north in Chile that was melting the ice and creating a waterfall the size of a football stadium....

Peer review to deniers means a blog told me so....
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
You miss the point:

SELECTIVELY citing anti-MMCC studies is a distortion of science. If 95% of the studies support MMCC, then giving 50% "air time" to anti-MMCC studies provides a grossly distorted, highly misleading picture of what the scientific evidence is telling us.

This is why non-experts in the field have no business "deciding" what the truth is for themselves. Presumably, the scientific consensus in any field is a reflection of ALL the evidence, free from distortions.

You simultaneously label everything not of the majority opinion as "fringe", meaning nobody should even look at it, and then you say you don't reject scientific studies of any kind? You even compared it to holocaust denial in there... are you serious?

Just tell us you've already made up your mind, you don't give a shit about the science, and we can move on.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,095
513
126
Hahahaha.... oh jeez... I'm sorry.

5 minutes of searching turned up what a self-indulgent prick you are:



That was your in response to somebody saying that they wanted to hear both sides of the argument... so basically what you were just telling me.

You don't give a shit about the truth, you made up your mind a long time ago.

Ouch lol
 

shira

Diamond Member
Jan 12, 2005
9,567
6
81
You simultaneously label everything not of the majority opinion as "fringe", meaning nobody should even look at it, and then you say you don't reject scientific studies of any kind? You even compared it to holocaust denial in there... are you serious?

Just tell us you've already made up your mind, you don't give a shit about the science, and we can move on.

Boy, you really don't get it, do you?

All peer-reviewed, published studies - regardless of whether they represent mainstream or non-mainstream views - should be examined and evaluated by those qualified in the field. Presumably, ALL of the information is incorporated into the evolving consensus.

Non-scientists are not qualified to "make up their minds" on the science. Are you really so arrogant that you think you can absorb ALL of the information in the field of climatology and come to a fully-informed opinion?

The difference between me and you is that I routinely believe in the scientific consensus, WHATEVER it is. You, on the other hand, allow your politics to drive your beliefs. You couldn't care less what the science says; you have a political ax to grind and darned if any scientists are going to be allowed to stand in the way of your free-enterprise mantra.
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
The difference between me and you is that I routinely believe in the scientific consensus, WHATEVER it is. You, on the other hand, allow your politics to drive your beliefs. You couldn't care less what the science says; you have a political ax to grind and darned if any scientists are going to be allowed to stand in the way of your free-enterprise mantra.

No, the difference is that I can see how politics has influenced the "consensus", and you pretend to be oblivious to that fact.

Why is it that you are the one who came into this thread and started trying to discredit the OP, instead of discussing the merits of the article? I can't even count the number of posts when I search for "climate change" and your name in which you continually claim that all opposing science is trash, MMCC is all by proven, and any scientist with a dissenting opinion is a "fringe whack job".

Seriously, drop the charade kiddo.
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
The 11 year solar cycle has been known for centuries, and when sunspots hit a minimum, its not surprising that the most energetic solar frequencies decrease at that 4x rate.
Some of the best climate scientists in the world are very surprised by this. You must be one damn smart guy...that's all I can say.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,131
5,658
126
Wut? Looks like another Gaps argument. IOW, we found something new, so how can we possibly state things with any confidence? You seem to have missed a few points though. The main one being that the Light discovered to be many times greater than previously thought has little to no effect on Surface and Lower Atmospheric Temperature. IOW, doesn't affect GW/GCC.
 
Nov 30, 2006
15,456
389
121
Anti science circle jerk is anti science circle jerk....

I was on a ice breaker near Antarctica with a group of people listening to a lecture from a well known scientist. He showed us pictures of the shelf and the major Ice flows and how they have changed in the last 100 years... We were literally looking at the evidence..literally...
Guess what... about 4 morons kept insisting it was the volcanic activity happening way to north in Chile that was melting the ice and creating a waterfall the size of a football stadium....

Peer review to deniers means a blog told me so....

Does this sound familiar?
whats comical is the the majority of the rebutals from the mental giants in this thread goes along the lines of "your stupid" or "hes a moron" instead of attacking the substance of the argument.

Do you have something of substance to say or should we just put you into the "mental giants" catagory?
 

manimal

Lifer
Mar 30, 2007
13,560
8
0
OK DSF interesting article. Yes some of the findings do need peer review. But reread your first paragraph and get back to us..hint its the part about limited data range..


Now look at the THOUSANDS of peer reviewed documents that have been discussed and reviewed by THOUSANDS of independent scientists and the general consensus of the current MMCC model and get back to us...

BTW do you believe in creationism, darwin, or ZENU of the sky people?
 

PeshakJang

Platinum Member
Mar 17, 2010
2,276
0
0
Now look at the THOUSANDS of peer reviewed documents that have been discussed and reviewed by THOUSANDS of independent scientists and the general consensus of the current MMCC model and get back to us...

This is how I've seen the MMCC argument going for about 5 years:


"Here's another study suggesting that the consensus is inaccurate..."

"That's one fringe study, look at the consensus..."

"Here's another study suggesting that the consensus is inaccurate..."

"That's one fringe study, look at the consensus..."

"Here's another study suggesting that the consensus is inaccurate..."

"That's one fringe study, look at the consensus..."

"Here's another study suggesting that the consensus is inaccurate..."

"That's one fringe study, look at the consensus..."

"Here's another study suggesting that the consensus is inaccurate..."

"That's one fringe study, look at the consensus..."

"Here's another study suggesting that the consensus is inaccurate..."

"That's one fringe study, look at the consensus..."

"Here's another study suggesting that the consensus is inaccurate..."

"That's one fringe study, look at the consensus..."
 

waggy

No Lifer
Dec 14, 2000
68,145
10
81
personally i think this is just one paice of the puzzle. its not ANY one thing but everything happening at a bad time.
 

drebo

Diamond Member
Feb 24, 2006
7,035
1
81
The Sun's hot. Sunspots erupt in CMEs which make space hot. Earth is in space. Hot space makes the Earth hot. CMEs are orders of magnitude hotter than the Earth. It's much more likely that CMEs make the Earth hotter than carbon makes the Earth.

Hell, WATER makes the Earth hotter than carbon makes the Earth.
 
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