It's coming, Tuesday

Bluga

Banned
Nov 28, 2000
4,315
0
0
I know that war is coming.

I know that American (and British and Spanish) soldiers will fight in a land they do not know much about, and they will tragically die for reasons they surely don't understand.

I know that counterattacks are going to happen on this country's soil. People will die, and for reasons that have not been justifiably explained to myself and the billions around the world who agree with me.

I know this war is sick and unjust.

I know until there is irrefutable truth that proves otherwise, i will hold firm to my belief, wish upon stars that my friends living in New York, London, San Francisco, Chicago, Los Angeles and other susceptible places around the world will survive an unavoidable dangerous situation brought about by people who stole the election.

 

MinorityReport

Senior member
Jul 2, 2002
425
0
0
I know that we will not see the weird face of Bush in the office if economy does not recover soon.

War or no war, his butt will be grilled.
 
May 31, 2001
15,326
2
0
Blah, blah, blah, stole the election, blah. There have been recounts and more recounts, by various indepedent groups. Bush took Florida, and thus won the Electoral Vote. That is how our Presidents are elected. If you do not like it, fine. Work to change it to a Popular Vote system. It does not change the fact that he won under the system that was in place at the time. Grow a brain, fvcktard.
 

Pocatello

Diamond Member
Oct 11, 1999
9,754
2
76
The terrorists have declared war on the US long before Iraq. They bombed the US marines and embassy in Lebanon, we did nothing. They bombed the World Trade Center in 1993, we did nothing, they bombed the US airforce barrack in Saudi Arabia, we did nothing, they bombed our embassy Africa, we did nothing, they bombed the USS Cole, we did nothing, they used our civilian aircrafts loaded with passengers to destroy the World Trade Center. It is war, and we didn't start the fire. Whether we attack Iraq now or never, the terrorists have already planned their next move, hopefully we can catch them, and preemptively kill them first.
 

h8red

Senior member
Jul 24, 2001
967
1
71
Originally posted by: Pocatello
The terrorists have declared war on the US long before Iraq. They bombed the US marines and embassy in Lebanon, we did nothing. They bombed the World Trade Center in 1993, we did nothing, they bombed the US airforce barrack in Saudi Arabia, we did nothing, they bombed our embassy Africa, we did nothing, they bombed the USS Cole, we did nothing, they used our civilian aircrafts loaded with passengers to destroy the World Trade Center. It is war, and we didn't start the fire. Whether we attack Iraq now or never, the terrorists have already planned their next move, hopefully we can catch them, and preemptively kill them first.


Well thought out post. Thank you
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,358
8,447
126
not doing right because of fear of some vague retaliation that may or may not happen is a pretty awful thing to do, imho
 

Bluga

Banned
Nov 28, 2000
4,315
0
0
Originally posted by: Jimbo
Read This Bluga

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Mookow

Lifer
Apr 24, 2001
10,162
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Originally posted by: Bluga
Originally posted by: Jimbo
Read This Bluga

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Goes straight to the story for me... if you dont like the questions, feed them some B.S. info
 

snooker

Platinum Member
Apr 13, 2001
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Originally posted by: Bluga
I know that war is coming.

I know that American (and British and Spanish) soldiers will fight in a land they do not know much about, and they will tragically die for reasons they surely don't understand.

I know that counterattacks are going to happen on this country's soil. People will die, and for reasons that have not been justifiably explained to myself and the billions around the world who agree with me.

I know this war is sick and unjust.

I know until there is irrefutable truth that proves otherwise, i will hold firm to my belief, wish upon stars that my friends living in New York, London, San Francisco, Chicago, Los Angeles and other susceptible places around the world will survive an unavoidable dangerous situation brought about by people who stole the election.


How do you know all that?

 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Those who still oppose war in Iraq think containment is an alternative -- a middle way between all-out war and letting Saddam Hussein out of his box.

They are wrong.

Sanctions are inevitably the cornerstone of containment, and in Iraq, sanctions kill.

In this case, containment is not an alternative to war. Containment is war: a slow, grinding war in which the only certainty is that hundreds of thousands of civilians will die.

The Gulf War killed somewhere between 21,000 and 35,000 Iraqis, of whom between 1,000 and 5,000 were civilians.

Based on Iraqi government figures, UNICEF estimates that containment kills roughly 5,000 Iraqi babies (children under 5 years of age) every month, or 60,000 per year. Other estimates are lower, but by any reasonable estimate containment kills about as many people every year as the Gulf War -- and almost all the victims of containment are civilian, and two-thirds are children under 5.

Each year of containment is a new Gulf War.

Saddam Hussein is 65; containing him for another 10 years condemns at least another 360,000 Iraqis to death. Of these, 240,000 will be children under 5.

Those are the low-end estimates. Believe UNICEF and 10 more years kills 600,000 Iraqi babies and altogether almost 1 million Iraqis.

Ever since U.N.-mandated sanctions took effect, Iraqi propaganda has blamed the United States for deliberately murdering Iraqi babies to further U.S. foreign policy goals.

Wrong.

The sanctions exist only because Saddam Hussein has refused for 12 years to honor the terms of a cease-fire he himself signed. In any case, the United Nations and the United States allow Iraq to sell enough oil each month to meet the basic needs of Iraqi civilians. Hussein diverts these resources. Hussein murders the babies.

But containment enables the slaughter. Containment kills.

The slaughter of innocents is the worst cost of containment, but it is not the only cost of containment.

Containment allows Saddam Hussein to control the political climate of the Middle East. If it serves his interest to provoke a crisis, he can shoot at U.S. planes. He can mobilize his troops near Kuwait. He can support terrorists and destabilize his neighbors. The United States must respond to these provocations.

Worse, containment forces the United States to keep large conventional forces in Saudi Arabia and the rest of the region. That costs much more than money.

The existence of al Qaeda, and the attacks of Sept. 11, 2001, are part of the price the United States has paid to contain Saddam Hussein.

The link is clear and direct. Since 1991 the United States has had forces in Saudi Arabia. Those forces are there for one purpose only: to defend the kingdom (and its neighbors) from Iraqi attack. If Saddam Hussein had either fallen from power in 1991 or fulfilled the terms of his cease-fire agreement and disarmed, U.S. forces would have left Saudi Arabia.

But Iraqi defiance forced the United States to stay, and one consequence was dire and direct. Osama bin Laden founded al Qaeda because U.S. forces stayed in Saudi Arabia.

This is the link between Saddam Hussein's defiance of international law and the events of Sept. 11; it is clear and compelling. No Iraqi violations, no Sept. 11.

So that is our cost.

And what have we bought?

We've bought the right of a dictator to suppress his own people, disturb the peace of the region and make the world darker and more dangerous for the American people.

We've bought the continuing presence of U.S. forces in Saudi Arabia, causing a profound religious offense to a billion Muslims around the world, and accelerating the alarming drift of Saudi religious and political leaders toward ever more extreme forms of anti-Americanism.

What we can't buy is protection from Hussein's development of weapons of mass destruction. Too many companies and too many states will sell him anything he wants, and Russia and France will continue to sabotage any inspections and sanctions regime.

Morally, politically, financially, containing Iraq is one of the costliest failures in the history of American foreign policy. Containment can be tweaked -- made a little less murderous, a little less dangerous, a little less futile -- but the basic equations don't change. Containing Hussein delivers civilians into the hands of a murderous psychopath, destabilizes the whole Middle East and foments anti-American terror -- with no end in sight.

This is disaster, not policy.

It is time for a change.

Walter Russell Mead is senior fellow for U.S. foreign policy at the Council on Foreign Relations and author most recently of "Special Providence: American Foreign Policy and How It Changed the World."



© 2003 The Washington Post Company
 

Fencer128

Platinum Member
Jun 18, 2001
2,700
1
91
Originally posted by: Pocatello
The terrorists have declared war on the US long before Iraq. They bombed the US marines and embassy in Lebanon, we did nothing. They bombed the World Trade Center in 1993, we did nothing, they bombed the US airforce barrack in Saudi Arabia, we did nothing, they bombed our embassy Africa, we did nothing, they bombed the USS Cole, we did nothing, they used our civilian aircrafts loaded with passengers to destroy the World Trade Center. It is war, and we didn't start the fire. Whether we attack Iraq now or never, the terrorists have already planned their next move, hopefully we can catch them, and preemptively kill them first.

IMHO its interesting that in all the terrorist situations I can think of around the world - the only real progress that has ever been made has been through negotiation. Do you think that the Chetchen problem will be sorted through another war - will that stop Chetchen terrorists? What about the "eye for an eye" mentality between Isreal and Palestine - will the ongoing war their resolve the conflict? What about N. Ireland - or Spain? Are these terrorist threats being resolved through a crackdown?

I can't see any way forward against terrorism (not to be confused with the completely different Iraq issue) through the current policy of the US government. Hard though it is - you have to understand why the terrorism is occuring, where they're drawing their support from and why so many are willing to die for these terrorist aims, to start to handle the situation in a feasable manner.

Address the issue of US - Isreal policy making, put real pressure on that government to seriously tackle a negotiated settlement.
Practice fair trade, not just free trade to countries other than yourselves.

If just these 2 issues could be seriously tackled by the current US administration it would do more to undermine the grip the zealot terrorists have on the hearts and minds of their followers than any amount of bombing will do. That would be a real start to a long term solution.

I can only see history making the arguement "A war will not stop terrorist threats - if anything it will inflame and entrench them".

Andy
 

Morph

Banned
Oct 14, 1999
747
0
0
Well said Bluga. Some of us tend to forget that George W. Bush was NOT elected by a majority of people in this country. AS far as I'm concerned, he got in on a technicality.

In regards to that article that everyone is so impressed with. It is correct about one thing at least... sanctions don't work. They do not punish the governement, only the people. And it's us who have been imposing those sanctions, so we have to share the resposibility at least partly for any suffering they cause. The point is, sanctions don't work, you need to find better ways to persuade governments to clean up their acts. It's still not a good excuse to wage war, in my opinion. Two wrongs don't make a right.
 

etech

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Bluga

I know that counterattacks are going to happen on this country's soil

Someone has said they are going to attack Canada?

Why are so many anti-American threads started by Canadians?
 

Jimbo

Platinum Member
Oct 10, 1999
2,641
0
76
Originally posted by: etech
Bluga

I know that counterattacks are going to happen on this country's soil

Someone has said they are going to attack Canada?

Why are so many anti-American threads started by Canadians?

I think they are fed up with the "Tank" jokes.

 

Pastfinder

Platinum Member
Jul 2, 2000
2,352
0
0
Monday night is a more likely time to see the cruise missiles make their rounds of the Baghdad.
 

tm37

Lifer
Jan 24, 2001
12,436
1
0
Originally posted by: Morph
Well said Bluga. Some of us tend to forget that George W. Bush was NOT elected by a majority of people in this country. AS far as I'm concerned, he got in on a technicality.

In regards to that article that everyone is so impressed with. It is correct about one thing at least... sanctions don't work. They do not punish the governement, only the people. And it's us who have been imposing those sanctions, so we have to share the resposibility at least partly for any suffering they cause. The point is, sanctions don't work, you need to find better ways to persuade governments to clean up their acts. It's still not a good excuse to wage war, in my opinion. Two wrongs don't make a right.

OK what is the solution. SHould we let saddam run free?
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
73,296
6,354
126
It's always nice to see there's still folks around who actually thing the recount of florida showed Bush won. It showed he won if you count this war or that, but it showed he lost if you count the entire state according to what were legal votes by state law. Gore got the majority of the votes state wide. He actually won the election.
 

T2T III

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
12,899
1
0
Originally posted by: EpsiIon
Originally posted by: rgwalt
Originally posted by: Jimbo
Read This Bluga

A very good read. Excellent information and a very compelling reason to go to war.

Ryan

I agree. I'll show this to some of my anti-war buddies and see what they say.

BTW Bluga, you should definitely read it.

Epsilon
Yes, a very good read. Containment is war in and of itself. Time to fire up the bombers.
 
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