Its go time. SCOTUS to hear Heller gun ban case

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: smack Down
The problem is we need some limits on guns. Do you really want the second to apply as written? Giving criminals, insane, and kids the right to keep and bar arms?

Criminals will have the guns anyways. Obviously you'ved missed the point.

I feel the same way about anything being outlawed. When you outlaw murder, only criminals will get to murder, for example.

Because obviously, it's *impossible* for gun laws to have *any* beneficial effect by reducing the supply of guns available easily and cheaply for criminals.

Heck, look at how ineffective the ban on leaded gasoline is - now only criminals can buy leaded gas. Or cars without seat belts, now only criminals can drive them.

It's time for the gun nuts to put the kool aid down and take a look at the facts on how *handguns* are abused and used in the nation and ask rational questions.

I'm not going to insist on the conclusion they should reach, but simply that they stop refusing to look at the facts to blindly scream the sky is falling if any gun is limited.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: TallBill
Originally posted by: smack Down
The problem is we need some limits on guns. Do you really want the second to apply as written? Giving criminals, insane, and kids the right to keep and bar arms?

Criminals will have the guns anyways. Obviously you'ved missed the point.

I feel the same way about anything being outlawed. When you outlaw murder, only criminals will get to murder, for example.

Because obviously, it's *impossible* for gun laws to have *any* beneficial effect by reducing the supply of guns available easily and cheaply for criminals.

Heck, look at how ineffective the ban on leaded gasoline is - now only criminals can buy leaded gas. Or cars without seat belts, now only criminals can drive them.

It's time for the gun nuts to put the kool aid down and take a look at the facts on how *handguns* are abused and used in the nation and ask rational questions.

I'm not going to insist on the conclusion they should reach, but simply that they stop refusing to look at the facts to blindly scream the sky is falling if any gun is limited.
Exactly. Obviously, by its very definition, when something is outlawed only criminals will have/do it/have done it.

 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: Rainsford
So if SCOTUS rules in favor of gun rights, does this mean the gun nuts will shut the fuck up about the 2nd amendment and maybe start caring about the REST of our civil liberties? I'm all in favor of gun rights, I just think a lot of folks who share that opinion have had some pretty bad tunnel vision for the past 40 years or so. And I really hope this goes a long way towards taking out one of the legs of the "God, guns and gays" platform the Republicans have been running on for the last few decades.

I realize this is unfair to a lot of gun folks, and I'm sure that there are plenty of gun owners who aren't in thrall to anyone who talks about protecting them from "gun grabbers". But honestly, there are enough of them out there that I would welcome this issue being off the table.

Its easy to have blinders on when you've spent damn near a century fighting to keep your right to keep and bear arms.

Have you or yours spent that much time defending ANY other right? Of course not, you havent had to!
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Actually, based on his above comment, I have taken away Skoorb's right to vote. Go ahead and ask him if he can vote. You'll see.

Oh, What are you on about? Nearly everyone here can vote, including me. Ever since the day I became 18. Delusional much?

Sorry, I thought you were Canadian. I must have confused you with someone else.
No, you weren't. I'm just being a douche in response to an irritating post

 

EagleKeeper

Discussion Club Moderator<br>Elite Member
Staff member
Oct 30, 2000
42,589
5
0
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: Nebor
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Actually, based on his above comment, I have taken away Skoorb's right to vote. Go ahead and ask him if he can vote. You'll see.

Oh, What are you on about? Nearly everyone here can vote, including me. Ever since the day I became 18. Delusional much?

Sorry, I thought you were Canadian. I must have confused you with someone else.
No, you weren't. I'm just being a douche in response to an irritating post
Canadians are allowed to vote.
Just not in the US or in their own home

 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Rainsford
So if SCOTUS rules in favor of gun rights, does this mean the gun nuts will shut the fuck up about the 2nd amendment and maybe start caring about the REST of our civil liberties? I'm all in favor of gun rights, I just think a lot of folks who share that opinion have had some pretty bad tunnel vision for the past 40 years or so. And I really hope this goes a long way towards taking out one of the legs of the "God, guns and gays" platform the Republicans have been running on for the last few decades.

I realize this is unfair to a lot of gun folks, and I'm sure that there are plenty of gun owners who aren't in thrall to anyone who talks about protecting them from "gun grabbers". But honestly, there are enough of them out there that I would welcome this issue being off the table.

Its easy to have blinders on when you've spent damn near a century fighting to keep your right to keep and bear arms.

Have you or yours spent that much time defending ANY other right? Of course not, you havent had to!

Actually, yes. We as a country, have been fighting for rights since our inception whether that be the right to bear arms or the right to free speech. We even split the country in half over civil rights (plus a bunch of other issues tied to it). You are being melodramatic in your cause.

That said, has anyone considered whether or not the court, as constructed now (greatly right leaning and led by a Bush/Cheney appointee) really would want to have an armed citizenry?

When I think about their track record, I just get the image of Bush (more Cheney TBH) sitting in a room with Roberts and then Alito and grilling them on this issue making sure that they will lean the direction that they want them to.

And when I think about Cheney's (and now Bush's) wet dream of a "unitary executive" that can basically do what they want...one question keeps coming to mind:

Do they really want the people to have the ability to take back the reigns?

Maybe I just need stronger grade foil. But maybe I just think as diabolically as they do. I guess we will see.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Rainsford
So if SCOTUS rules in favor of gun rights, does this mean the gun nuts will shut the fuck up about the 2nd amendment and maybe start caring about the REST of our civil liberties? I'm all in favor of gun rights, I just think a lot of folks who share that opinion have had some pretty bad tunnel vision for the past 40 years or so. And I really hope this goes a long way towards taking out one of the legs of the "God, guns and gays" platform the Republicans have been running on for the last few decades.

I realize this is unfair to a lot of gun folks, and I'm sure that there are plenty of gun owners who aren't in thrall to anyone who talks about protecting them from "gun grabbers". But honestly, there are enough of them out there that I would welcome this issue being off the table.

Its easy to have blinders on when you've spent damn near a century fighting to keep your right to keep and bear arms.

Have you or yours spent that much time defending ANY other right? Of course not, you havent had to!

Actually, yes. We as a country, have been fighting for rights since our inception whether that be the right to bear arms or the right to free speech. We even split the country in half over civil rights (plus a bunch of other issues tied to it). You are being melodramatic in your cause.


Excuse me??
Proof?

I can list half a dozen times in the past 70 years where gun rights have been attacked. You hear newscasts almost monthly about the dangers of firearms.

Sorry, I dont recall even half that many time the other rights have been so attacked. I dont recall any newscasts saying our right to free speech should be taken away, let alone something that we routinely see. I cant think of any other right that has entire organizations dedicated to eliminating that right. No one says we should take away your right to privacy or right to free speech. We have multiple organizations with the sole purpose of denying you the right to own a firearm.

Melodramatic? My ass......
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Rainsford
So if SCOTUS rules in favor of gun rights, does this mean the gun nuts will shut the fuck up about the 2nd amendment and maybe start caring about the REST of our civil liberties? I'm all in favor of gun rights, I just think a lot of folks who share that opinion have had some pretty bad tunnel vision for the past 40 years or so. And I really hope this goes a long way towards taking out one of the legs of the "God, guns and gays" platform the Republicans have been running on for the last few decades.

I realize this is unfair to a lot of gun folks, and I'm sure that there are plenty of gun owners who aren't in thrall to anyone who talks about protecting them from "gun grabbers". But honestly, there are enough of them out there that I would welcome this issue being off the table.

Its easy to have blinders on when you've spent damn near a century fighting to keep your right to keep and bear arms.

Have you or yours spent that much time defending ANY other right? Of course not, you havent had to!

Actually, yes. We as a country, have been fighting for rights since our inception whether that be the right to bear arms or the right to free speech. We even split the country in half over civil rights (plus a bunch of other issues tied to it). You are being melodramatic in your cause.


Excuse me??
Proof?

I can list half a dozen times in the past 70 years where gun rights have been attacked. You hear newscasts almost monthly about the dangers of firearms.

Sorry, I dont recall even half that many time the other rights have been so attacked. I dont recall any newscasts saying our right to free speech should be taken away, let alone something that we routinely see. I cant think of any other right that has entire organizations dedicated to eliminating that right. No one says we should take away your right to privacy or right to free speech. We have multiple organizations with the sole purpose of denying you the right to own a firearm.

Melodramatic? My ass......

I think that if you were asking for proof of your melodramatic attitude...you just provided it yourself.

You do realize that blacks were slaves even before our country declared its freedom. And that over a hundred years later there was a war that granted them freedom from that. And then another hundred years later, there was legislation that had to be enacted to grant them the right to even attend the same school as white children or even to drink from the same water fountain. You do realize that there are still groups today that are opposed to this integration and actively take actions to try to get it scaled back.

Oh noes....I have to have a background check before I can buy me my's gun! :roll:

Your "cause" is nothing in the grand scheme of things when compared to what others have had to endure.

Edit: And in all your foaming at the mouth -- my guns or my life idiocy -- you don't remember that the Republican members of congress trying to get legislation condemning Moveon.org? What about every conservative's hero...Newt Gingrich:

Former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich yesterday said the country will be forced to reexamine freedom of speech to meet the threat of terrorism.

Gingrich, speaking at a Manchester awards banquet, said a "different set of rules" may be needed to reduce terrorists' ability to use the Internet and free speech to recruit and get out their message.

What about the enactment of "Free Speech Zones"?

When you get a clue, come back.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
OP: if the SC holds there's no individual gun right ownership, all that means is states can, if they choose, ban guns. You really think Texas is going to do that? South Carolina? Montana? Nebraska? Kansas? I don't think so. The SC ruling for DC doesn't automatically ban guns everywhere.

I believe with the court's current composition it will find an individual right to gun ownership does exist, but even if they rule the other way, I don't expect any states to rush to pass laws banning guns.

Same as if RvW were overturned, abortion wouldn't be made illegal everywhere, it would just be up to the states to determine.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong

I think that if you were asking for proof of your melodramatic attitude...you just provided it yourself.

You do realize that blacks were slaves even before our country declared its freedom. And that over a hundred years later there was a war that granted them freedom from that. And then another hundred years later, there was legislation that had to be enacted to grant them the right to even attend the same school as white children or even to drink from the same water fountain. You do realize that there are still groups today that are opposed to this integration and actively take actions to try to get it scaled back.

Oh noes....I have to have a background check before I can buy me my's gun! :roll:

Your "cause" is nothing in the grand scheme of things when compared to what others have had to endure.

Hmmm. Show me in the Bill of Rights where black people have any rights? In fact, it wasnt until the later Amendments they were granted rights. As you said they were slaves before we were considered a country so their treatment before this point is an invalid point in the discussion.

Now to get to the point. Blacks were granted rights with the 14th amendment (I think). Black suffrage. Since then groups have been fighting to restore or uphold their rights.

Again, since your so blinded by black....
The 2nd Amendment is the only one where groups are working to take it away. How many groups do you see working to take away blacks rights? or womens rights? or your right to free speech?

Name them. Your black issue is a non issue anymore. Minorities have more opportunities in this country then any other time in history, and have more opportunities then whites.

Our current gun laws are more restrictive then they've ever been in history except perhaps under Clinton.

Edit: And in all your foaming at the mouth -- my guns or my life idiocy -- you don't remember that the Republican members of congress trying to get legislation condemning Moveon.org? What about every conservative's hero...Newt Gingrich:

Former Speaker of the House Newt Gingrich yesterday said the country will be forced to reexamine freedom of speech to meet the threat of terrorism.

Gingrich, speaking at a Manchester awards banquet, said a "different set of rules" may be needed to reduce terrorists' ability to use the Internet and free speech to recruit and get out their message.

What about the enactment of "Free Speech Zones"?

When you get a clue, come back.

How far did those measures go? Has Moveon been censored or shut down? Where are these different set of rules for freedom of speech?

But if you want to get nitty gritty, maybe the other rights should be regulated like the 2nd. Then you could get a taste of your own medicine. Personally, I love it when someone wants to restrict a right outside the 2nd, because I love seeing everyone get the panties in a wad. "Oh noes, I cant say I'm going to blow up Federal buildings!'. But these same people are more then willing to pack the 2nd up in a crate and ship it away.

Wheres your clue? Apparently I have 2, I can sell you one if you need.
 

jonks

Lifer
Feb 7, 2005
13,918
20
81
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: RightIsWrong
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: Rainsford
So if SCOTUS rules in favor of gun rights, does this mean the gun nuts will shut the fuck up about the 2nd amendment and maybe start caring about the REST of our civil liberties? I'm all in favor of gun rights, I just think a lot of folks who share that opinion have had some pretty bad tunnel vision for the past 40 years or so. And I really hope this goes a long way towards taking out one of the legs of the "God, guns and gays" platform the Republicans have been running on for the last few decades.

I realize this is unfair to a lot of gun folks, and I'm sure that there are plenty of gun owners who aren't in thrall to anyone who talks about protecting them from "gun grabbers". But honestly, there are enough of them out there that I would welcome this issue being off the table.

Its easy to have blinders on when you've spent damn near a century fighting to keep your right to keep and bear arms.

Have you or yours spent that much time defending ANY other right? Of course not, you havent had to!

Actually, yes. We as a country, have been fighting for rights since our inception whether that be the right to bear arms or the right to free speech. We even split the country in half over civil rights (plus a bunch of other issues tied to it). You are being melodramatic in your cause.


Excuse me??
Proof?

I can list half a dozen times in the past 70 years where gun rights have been attacked. You hear newscasts almost monthly about the dangers of firearms.

Sorry, I dont recall even half that many time the other rights have been so attacked. I dont recall any newscasts saying our right to free speech should be taken away, let alone something that we routinely see. I cant think of any other right that has entire organizations dedicated to eliminating that right. No one says we should take away your right to privacy or right to free speech. We have multiple organizations with the sole purpose of denying you the right to own a firearm.

Melodramatic? My ass......

I'm sorry, you can list a half dozen times in 70 years when gun rights were attacked? 6 times in 70 years? And you compare that to attacks on free speech which is attacked 6 times a week? Go peruse the SCOTUS or other federal court docket for the past decade alone and see whether gun rights or free speech/free exercise have been more litigated over. Sheesh.

No one challenges the right to privacy or free speech? I think everyone on this thread can stop wasting time debating with you now.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: sirjonk
OP: if the SC holds there's no individual gun right ownership, all that means is states can, if they choose, ban guns. You really think Texas is going to do that? South Carolina? Montana? Nebraska? Kansas? I don't think so. The SC ruling for DC doesn't automatically ban guns everywhere.

I believe with the court's current composition it will find an individual right to gun ownership does exist, but even if they rule the other way, I don't expect any states to rush to pass laws banning guns.

Same as if RvW were overturned, abortion wouldn't be made illegal everywhere, it would just be up to the states to determine.

It means 2 things. First the states set their own laws, but more importantly it allows the feds to restrict at the country level. Just like Clinton did.
 

bamacre

Lifer
Jul 1, 2004
21,029
2
61
I think that if we legalized drugs in this country, it would reduce violent crime significantly. It is time we take the money out of the hands of gangs and other criminals, and put it in the hands of businesses that are accountable to the free market and that pay taxes. Guns are only a tool. It is the intent to kill that is the problem.
 

teclis1023

Golden Member
Jan 19, 2007
1,452
0
71
Originally posted by: JD50
I've always been curious about why people feel this way. Its obvious by looking at crime statistics that assault rifles, sniper rifles, etc.. are hardly ever used in any kind of violent crime, so why are you so against people owning these weapons?

A hand gun can be used in defense of family in a tight situation.
A hunting rifle is used for hunting or target practice, I assume.

Assault rifles, sniper rifles and armor-piercing bullets are meant only for one thing - killing people. Nobody is going to use a sniper rifle to stop a burglary, it just doesn't make sense. Armor piercing bullets have only one purpose as well - to kill people who are protected by flak vests (i.e. - Cops). Not only do these weapons introduce massive abilities to destroy communities, but it demoralizes the police force knowing that John Smith can go buy an assault rifle with armor piercing bullets.

I'm not against the right to bear arms, but there are limits.
 

RightIsWrong

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2005
5,649
0
0
Unless you want to argue that blacks and women are subservient to white males and do not count when you quote ANY of the Bill of Rights, then I would say that their rights were implicitly guaranteed when ever the framers put the words "the people" in each and every amendment.

Now, we can sit here and have a semantical argument all day about whether or not the intent was to cover blacks (which were explicitly granted freedom under the 13th Amendment) or women (who still don't have any rights other than voting if you take your literal translation as gospel because the ERA has never been ratified) but the point is, you are being melodramatic in thinking that your plight has suffered more than any other.

Now to get to the point. Blacks were granted rights with the 14th amendment (I think). Black suffrage. Since then groups have been fighting to restore or uphold their rights.

And groups have been fighting to curtail those EXPLICIT rights. Ever heard of the Ku Klux Klan?

Again, since your so blinded by black....
The 2nd Amendment is the only one where groups are working to take it away. How many groups do you see working to take away blacks rights? or womens rights? or your right to free speech?

I see quite a bit actually. See the KKK reference above. Also, see above commentary. Women have no rights other than suffrage if you take the Constitution literally.

And there are plenty of groups actively working to limit free speech. In fact, the most important group, the Executive branch of the United States has deemed I do not have the right to protest in their presence despite the first amendment stating:

the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

If we take your literal translation again....how can I petition them if they won't acknowledge that I exist by placing me out of sight and out of mind?

How far did those measures go? Has Moveon been censored or shut down? Where are these different set of rules for freedom of speech?

But if you want to get nitty gritty, maybe the other rights should be regulated like the 2nd. Then you could get a taste of your own medicine. Personally, I love it when someone wants to restrict a right outside the 2nd, because I love seeing everyone get the panties in a wad. "Oh noes, I cant say I'm going to blow up Federal buildings!'. But these same people are more then willing to pack the 2nd up in a crate and ship it away.

Wheres your clue? Apparently I have 2, I can sell you one if you need.

They went pretty far. For the Congress of the United State to even be talking about a political ad on the floor of the house or senate is appalling. For them to write letter to Clear Channel about Rush's idiotic statements is equally appalling. Both Moveon and Rush have every right as guaranteed by the first amendment to make asses out of themselves and I wouldn't have it any other way.

The American people respect the fact that there are limits to free speech (yelling fire, threatening the President, making a joke about anything at an airport, etc). We know that there is responsibility in having freedoms. Unfortunately for the rest of you, idiots like yourself are so consumed with your self pity that you can't make the same concessions.

We accept that, if we speak in a manner that is outside of the boundaries that we are responsible. Are you willing to do the same? Gun companies sure aren't willing to accept any responsibility for the use of their product. Are you willing to accept that any weapon of yours used in a crime will result in YOUR prosecution as well as whomever used it? You can't have it both ways.

Also, I think that you need to try to return those two clues that you have. They are as defective as your perspective of reality.
 

teclis1023

Golden Member
Jan 19, 2007
1,452
0
71
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Excuse me??
Proof?

- Black Civil Rights
- Women's Civil Rights
- Gay Civil Rights
- Warrantless Wire Tapping
- Warrantless Indefinite Detention of Arab Americans
- Illegal Detention of Prisoners of War in Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo
- Illegal no-bid contracting in Iraq
- Illegal no-bid contracting in New Orleans
- Government Black Listing of dissidents and American Communists


Yes, I can think of plenty of issues that we've grappled with over the course of our nation's history.

No one says we should take away your right to privacy or right to free speech.
Apparently you haven't been paying attention. It's called the executive branch.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: sirjonk
OP: if the SC holds there's no individual gun right ownership, all that means is states can, if they choose, ban guns.

You really think Texas is going to do that? South Carolina? Montana? Nebraska? Kansas?

I don't think so.

The SC ruling for DC doesn't automatically ban guns everywhere.

Big problem with that is that it would no longer be the "United States of America" under one Constitution.

You would be in effect saying that the State Constitutions overide the National Constitution.

Is that the way it is now? If not is that the way you want it to go?

If so then each state effectively becomes a seperate Nation.

That may not be such a bad thing.

Kalifornia for example is leading the way towards getting off of oil.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
Originally posted by: teclis1023
Originally posted by: JD50
I've always been curious about why people feel this way. Its obvious by looking at crime statistics that assault rifles, sniper rifles, etc.. are hardly ever used in any kind of violent crime, so why are you so against people owning these weapons?

A hand gun can be used in defense of family in a tight situation.
A hunting rifle is used for hunting or target practice, I assume.

Assault rifles, sniper rifles and armor-piercing bullets are meant only for one thing - killing people. Nobody is going to use a sniper rifle to stop a burglary, it just doesn't make sense. Armor piercing bullets have only one purpose as well - to kill people who are protected by flak vests (i.e. - Cops). Not only do these weapons introduce massive abilities to destroy communities, but it demoralizes the police force knowing that John Smith can go buy an assault rifle with armor piercing bullets.

I'm not against the right to bear arms, but there are limits.

Whats the difference between a hunting rifle and a sniper rifle? Seriously.

As for assault rifles, they've been banned for quite some time. The media likes to call any semi automatic firearm an "assault" rifle, which is incorrect.

"armor piercing" bullets are a bit of a sensationalized bulelt anyways. Any rifle in the world will blow through a cops vest because their vests are only pistol rated anyways. Any rifle is a "cop killer".

So no worries, everything you fear is already well regulated and restricted to us mere civilians.
 

dmcowen674

No Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
54,889
47
91
www.alienbabeltech.com
Originally posted by: Specop 007
Originally posted by: teclis1023
Originally posted by: JD50
I've always been curious about why people feel this way. Its obvious by looking at crime statistics that assault rifles, sniper rifles, etc.. are hardly ever used in any kind of violent crime, so why are you so against people owning these weapons?

A hand gun can be used in defense of family in a tight situation.
A hunting rifle is used for hunting or target practice, I assume.

Assault rifles, sniper rifles and armor-piercing bullets are meant only for one thing - killing people. Nobody is going to use a sniper rifle to stop a burglary, it just doesn't make sense. Armor piercing bullets have only one purpose as well - to kill people who are protected by flak vests (i.e. - Cops). Not only do these weapons introduce massive abilities to destroy communities, but it demoralizes the police force knowing that John Smith can go buy an assault rifle with armor piercing bullets.

I'm not against the right to bear arms, but there are limits.

Whats the difference between a hunting rifle and a sniper rifle? Seriously.

As for assault rifles, they've been banned for quite some time. The media likes to call any semi automatic firearm an "assault" rifle, which is incorrect.

"armor piercing" bullets are a bit of a sensationalized bulelt anyways. Any rifle in the world will blow through a cops vest because their vests are only pistol rated anyways. Any rifle is a "cop killer".

So no worries, everything you fear is already well regulated and restricted to us mere civilians.

Don't even try. America haters couldn't tell the difference between the sky and the ground if their life depended on it.
 

Specop 007

Diamond Member
Jan 31, 2005
9,454
0
0
T-Day is suppoed to be slow at work but shit just blew up, so let me condense a post to RightIsWrong and teclis1023.

The major point your failing to realize here is which way the movement is going.

Throughout the history of this country "the people" have formed groups and work towards more freedoms and more rights for "we the people". In every instance. Right for blacks, rights for gays, women, speech, etc etc etc. "We" have always been fighting for more rights for more people.

Except with the 2nd. No other right has more groups and more people working to restrict the freedoms it gives us. Its as if "we the people" want every right and more, EXCEPT the right to own firearms. "We the people" want that right stripped away......

The exception is of course the KKK, which is a pretty piss poor exception because I dont know of anyone outside of themselves who takes them seriously and they have the political clout of a wet paper bag.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,938
264
126
I've heard very few people - other than very wealthy individuals that are semi-paranoid types anyhow - that want the right to own firearms FURTHER restricted. But I've met quite a few that will not allow them in their houses nor will they entertain the notion of shooting for the fun of it. Personally I feel lawful people should own at least one gun per household and that criminals play a guessing game when they violate the sanctity of a home. I also don't like the no knock warrants as I've seen them all too often abused for any and all offenses, not just for putting down violent offenders and drug traffickers.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
This ought to be interesting if they side against gun rights. Be curious to see how far the govt can push it to outlaw private ownership of guns.

Here in Singapore criminals armed with guns are few and far between, and most of the time they're used to do proper jobs, like a recent case when a Malaysian assassin was hired to shoot a rival nightclub owner

Yeah but isnt Singapore a highly oppresive quasi police state? Didnt they lash an American with a cane for vandalism about a decade ago? Sure, anybody can have low crime rates if you clamp down on your society to that extent. I guess it is just a matter of how much personal freedom one wants to excercise.

 

teclis1023

Golden Member
Jan 19, 2007
1,452
0
71
Originally posted by: dmcowen674
Don't even try. America haters couldn't tell the difference between the sky and the ground if their life depended on it.

LOL. You're so far off it's almost more pathetic than funny.


To SpecOP,

I understand what you're saying, and I agree with many of the points that you're making. I'll reiterate what I said in my original post - I am under the impression that most violent gun crimes involve illegal firearms. Furthermore, being from Vermont, I am perfectly aware of hunting culture, although I am not a hunter.

I'm not out to get your guns, lol. Keep them. I really don't care. I just question the necessity of specific items, such as semi-automatic assault-style rifles and "Cop Killer" bullets. last I checked, Bambi isn't sporting a flak vest. I can think of 100 reasons (not literally) that I might need a pistol. I can't think of a single reason that I would need an AK-47-style weapon.

Furthermore, I'm a strong proponent of free speech, but if some idiot says "I have a bomb" in an airport, I won't flinch to support the cops who taze him or shoot him. There are consequences for our actions, and people need to realize that. If you stop viewing the world in black-and-white, it becomes easier to actually have a discussion without resorting to yelling and polemics.
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,938
264
126
Originally posted by: Genx87
Yeah but isnt Singapore a highly oppresive quasi police state? Didnt they lash an American with a cane for vandalism about a decade ago? Sure, anybody can have low crime rates if you clamp down on your society to that extent. I guess it is just a matter of how much personal freedom one wants to excercise.

Yeah it is, they even execute criminals in a lot of cases. They are the epitome opposite of the U.S. where the cops interbreed and spawn half breeds.

 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
349
126
Originally posted by: Specop 007
T-Day is suppoed to be slow at work but shit just blew up, so let me condense a post to RightIsWrong and teclis1023.

The major point your failing to realize here is which way the movement is going.

Throughout the history of this country "the people" have formed groups and work towards more freedoms and more rights for "we the people". In every instance. Right for blacks, rights for gays, women, speech, etc etc etc. "We" have always been fighting for more rights for more people.

Except with the 2nd. No other right has more groups and more people working to restrict the freedoms it gives us. Its as if "we the people" want every right and more, EXCEPT the right to own firearms. "We the people" want that right stripped away......

The exception is of course the KKK, which is a pretty piss poor exception because I dont know of anyone outside of themselves who takes them seriously and they have the political clout of a wet paper bag.

I hate to rain on your parade, but our nation was filled with many 'we the people' who strongly opposed the advancements you mention.

There's a reason women didn't have the vote until they finally organized during the progressive era. Recall that the democrats lost the presidency almost ever since by handing the south to republicans when they pushed through the civil rights bill to end legal racism in the nation. Racism was widely popular in the US for a century following the civil war, requiring baby steps to change public opinion, from Truman's sneaking in black judges and integrating the military, to Kennedy's wonderful national televised speech.

As for 'freedom', how many other freedoms cost as many American lives as the right for handguns to freely be sold?

If a word were created which, when read, killed readers such that thousands of Americans were being killed annually, would the right to free speech not limit the use of that word?

Does the right to freedom of religion include the right for thousands of Americans to say their religion is go around and shoot people for petty crimes? No, it doesn't.

Do you have the 'freedom' to ignore speed laws and red lights and kill people with your bad driving? No, they can put you in jail for it.

So, your equating the free exchange of handguns with other political 'rights' is not holding up too well under any scrutiny. At some level, there's a balance between the role of guns for self-defense versus their use for crime, but handguns are almost uniquely suited for the crime side of that trade-off compared to long guns. Gun advocates can't really hide behind the skirt of gay rights and racial equality to defend their handguns who kill so many in the largely democratic cities.
 
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