It's official, BlackBoxVoting is going public with fraud claims

[Genx87]

A site like what? bbv.org? Got something against Bev Harris? Got something against the little person taking down an alleged corporate criminal?

How about a congressional hearing? Why do we need a site at all?

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Genx87

A site like what? bbv.org? Got something against Bev Harris? Got something against the little person taking down an alleged corporate criminal?

How about a congressional hearing? Why do we need a site at all?

The House Judiciary Committee is investigating.

 

[ElFenix]

Originally posted by: conjur
A site like what? bbv.org? Got something against Bev Harris? Got something against the little person taking down an alleged corporate criminal?

you say that like it's a crime to be a corporation

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: Genx87

A site like what? bbv.org? Got something against Bev Harris? Got something against the little person taking down an alleged corporate criminal?

How about a congressional hearing? Why do we need a site at all?

The House Judiciary Committee is investigating.

Sounds good then. Certainly better than some website.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: Genx87

A site like what? bbv.org? Got something against Bev Harris? Got something against the little person taking down an alleged corporate criminal?

How about a congressional hearing? Why do we need a site at all?

The House Judiciary Committee is investigating.

Sounds good then. Certainly better than some website.

Bbv.org is a non-partisan, non-profit activist group... and she's one of the foremost authorities on voter advocacy. She's not just "some website".

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: ElFenix

Originally posted by: conjur
A site like what? bbv.org? Got something against Bev Harris? Got something against the little person taking down an alleged corporate criminal?

you say that like it's a crime to be a corporation

Um, no. If you think so, you should take a step back for a moment.

 

[Genx87]

Bbv.org is a non-partisan, non-profit activist group... and she's one of the foremost authorities on voter advocacy. She's not just "some website".

I can care less if she is the queen of england. A bipartisan review of the election is better imo.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Darkhawk28

Originally posted by: Genx87

A site like what? bbv.org? Got something against Bev Harris? Got something against the little person taking down an alleged corporate criminal?

How about a congressional hearing? Why do we need a site at all?

The House Judiciary Committee is investigating.

And several key Democrats have called for a full audit. You'd think the Republicans would want to know they won fair and square, too.

 

[dahunan]

The overabundance of IGNORANCE in this thread is reason to believe the voting system will never be changed and that people just don't give a f@ck anyway.

 

[Darkhawk28]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Bbv.org is a non-partisan, non-profit activist group... and she's one of the foremost authorities on voter advocacy. She's not just "some website".

I can care less if she is the queen of england. A bipartisan review of the election is better imo.

She's just getting the ball rolling. She wouldn't be able to audit EVERYTHING herself... LOL.

Of course, bipartisan reviews should be in order. I agree with that 10000%.

 

[Revolutionary]

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: MDesigner

Originally posted by: shinerburke

Originally posted by: Bumrush99

Originally posted by: Tiles2Tech

Originally posted by: jpeyton
This is good news. I had a gut feeling that this election would get a black eye from fraud, and I'm glad someone is doing something to uncover it.

Keep in mind now that you've asked for it, the numbers could come back against the party you voted for.

:roll:

Well Tiles, I could give a RATS ASS about which party was involved. I will tell you this, the American people are not dupes, if it is proven that Bush won this election based on a software glitch or an intentional effort to rig the race, Watergate will drawfed in comparison. I pray nothing comes out of this, but I think it is possible that something went haywire... I mean every single exit poll was 100% of the mark????

Just like they were in 2002. Exit polling is not an exact sceince.

OK, I don't claim to fully understand exit polling, and neither should you, but I do know for a fact that if the exit polls really lacked accuracy, the numbers would be in BOTH Kerry's and Bush's favor (varied from county to county) as the numbers were rolling in..right? That's not the case. In this election, Kerry came out ahead CONSISTENTLY until the last minute. THAT is fscking shady...and I hope IF there's something going on we don't know about, it gets exposed. But I'll be the first to say, if Bush won fair and square.. then congratulations to him, and screw the idiots who voted for him.

Well...now that you mention it. I have worked doing exit polling before. Back in 1992 and 1994. Want to know how it is done? You send one or two people to various polling places and they ask people leaving if they would mind talking for a few minutes. Not everyone gets asked, and the majority of people who do get asked do not want to talk. One time when I was doing the exit polling it was about a Senate race here. The majority of the people I asked and who would talk to me were overwhelming for the Democratic candidate, Dave McCurdy, however when the votes were counted he was blown out of the water by the Republican candidate.

What does that tell you?

Haven't read the whole thread, don't want to. But shinerburke is closer to the truth. Survey research (telephone polling) is statistically much more reliable, as researchers use that word, than is any other form of opinion research (which is also why the Rasmussen tracking poll showed a result statistically identical to the outcome -- www.rasmussenreports.com.) Focus groups, sidewalk surveys, exit polls (which are basically just a nationwide hybrid of the two) are statistically inferior, and political researchers generally understand that you can't rely on them for "public opinion" projects. They are only good for "focused" opinion -- for measuring the people that you have access to.

There are no -- none, not a one -- assurances as to the randomness of the sample, nor that the body being polled is actually representative of the greater population. Survery research is only random sample because mathematics allows us to only call numbers without regard to non-random relationships (although this too is changing, as the tendency to have only a phone that can't be called for a survey -- a cell -- is demographically stronger amonger younger and affluent voters). Face-to-face sampling is never based on randomness. You are in a fixed geographic location, sampling non-random subjects (because human beings aren't really capable of random behavior -- you talk to people who look approachable, or like they aren't in a hurry, or might actually respond, or aren't scary -- even if you don't intend to). GIS modeling can get you closer to a random result based on the locations you poll, but if people in any given part of the country, or people in any single precinct, county, or state, or people with any special proclivity (for instance, people who love to talk about how much they hate Bush), are more likely to respond to your survey or to have homogenous political ideas, then your sample is weighted, and there is nothing you can do about it. Random recission won't work. Compounding the sampling locations doesn't fix the basic methodology, it just makes your sample less and less reliable. And a cardinal rule of political research is that a non-random sample is a useless sample with absolutely no reliability.

There may be a problem with some election results (though, to be sure, the results in every battleground state, including Ohio and Florida, were within the margin of error of the Rasmussen poll, which is very well and conscientiously done), but there is a greater problem with the reliability of exit polling as a measurement device. You've never heard this before because the polling researchers are
businesses with a product to sell, which product has for the past 20 odd years been voraciously and habitually purchased and relied upon by the national media during every election. Most of the time it hasn't been an issue, because the margins of victory were pretty clearly greater than the margins of error. Close elections like this year and 2000 demonstrate that the margin of error is indeed huge compared with survey research. 2000 brought the censure of Congress and a voluntary agreement by the news outlets not to "publish" projections based on the polls (because they were in fact way off last time, too). Good thing, because this year is even worse. The customer is starting to understand that this miracle product is a hunk of junk.

 

[conjur]

Bev Harris & Howard Dean Hack the Vote, in 90 seconds - demonstration
http://www.commongroundcommons...dex.php?showtopic=1235


FYI, commongroundcommonsense.org is the new website that was forums.johnkerry.com

 

[Robor]

I voted for Kerry and I'm far from a Bush supporter so remember that when I say/ask this...

1. If the hack was this easy, who's to say Kerry supporters didn't do the same thing?

2. If a few thousand or even 10's of thousands of votes were fraud, Bush still won the popular vote by like 3.5 million votes.

3. Kerry won a few states by a very narrow margain as well. If the close calls in Bush wins are recounted the close calls for Kerry will surely be rechecked as well.

 

[CellarDoor]

Originally posted by: Robor
I voted for Kerry and I'm far from a Bush supporter so remember that when I say/ask this...

1. If the hack was this easy, who's to say Kerry supporters didn't do the same thing?

2. If a few thousand or even 10's of thousands of votes were fraud, Bush still won the popular vote by like 3.5 million votes.

3. Kerry won a few states by a very narrow margain as well. If the close calls in Bush wins are recounted the close calls for Kerry will surely be rechecked as well.

Everything you say could very well be true. Regardless of what happened and who did it, it should still be looked at.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: mribnik1

Originally posted by: Robor
I voted for Kerry and I'm far from a Bush supporter so remember that when I say/ask this...

1. If the hack was this easy, who's to say Kerry supporters didn't do the same thing?

2. If a few thousand or even 10's of thousands of votes were fraud, Bush still won the popular vote by like 3.5 million votes.

3. Kerry won a few states by a very narrow margain as well. If the close calls in Bush wins are recounted the close calls for Kerry will surely be rechecked as well.

Everything you say could very well be true. Regardless of what happened and who did it, it should still be looked at.

Oh, I totally agree. I just don't know that it's going to change the outcome unless it's proven this was a major covert nationally organized effort.

At least it's not my state (Florida) getting all the focus this time!

 

[Bowfinger]

Originally posted by: irwincur
[ ... ]
There is always something YOU PEOPLE will bitch about. In 2000, paper ballots were not good enough. So you asked for something better. Now, in 2004 computers are not good enough because they are too easy to mess with. In 2008 I am sure there will be another problem.

However, there is a common link here...

YOU ARE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE NOT OFFERING THE SOLUTIONS. You bitch and whine, yet you NEVER offer an alternative solution. I suspect that is because you don't want anything other than an excuse year in and year out. If there was so much fraud in Ohio, I would expect that the Democrats would be willing to have a total recount in Pennsylvania - a state that in the end is much closer than Ohio. How about Wisconsin and New Hampshire too.

Well I'm not sure who the YOU PEOPLE are you're attacking, but I'll tell you my solution. It's the solution I've been advocating for almsot two years, ever since I became aware of the gaping holes in our current e-voting systems. It is the same solution advocated by most computer professionals who understand the issues with current systems.

First and foremost, e-voting systems absolutely must generate a paper ballot that the voter can verify before submitting it. Ideally, the tally would be done from scanning the paper ballot rather than tallying the electronic entries directly. In either case, the paper ballot provides a record that can be recounted and audited when necessary. This is reasonably easy to do and is already used in many other countries.

The other major change needed is replacing the junk produced by companies like Diebold with truly secure systems. To start, that means getting rid of Access. "Access" and "secure" cannot be used in the same sentence without one of them being preceded with a "not". Voting data must be stored in a secure data store where every update of any sort is logged. Ideally, Windows should be tossed as well; it is too easy to compromise. This is a perfect application for Linux, a stripped-down, secured version without all the usual bloat-ware to open random holes and complicate security analysis.

If remote access is allowed at all, it must be secured, preferably at the hardware level with PKI, and every connection must be logged to a secure, inalterable log. All system accesses must be reported once each system is certified. Ideally, all access except voting/tallying should be locked out once each system is certified.

Finally, and again in an ideal world, the voting software would be open source. This transparency would help expose vulnerabilities and help assure all parties that software does exactly what it is supposed to do ... and not one thing more.

 

[glugglug]

Originally posted by: Robor
At least it's not my state (Florida) getting all the focus this time!

Actually it is one of the big attention areas. There is a bug with the touchscreen systems used in all the largest (and most liberal) counties in Florida where the count rolls over after 32767 votes per precinct and starts counting backwards. This bug reversed one of the amendment decisions and affected the passing margin on one of them by almost 80,000 votes in Broward County. Right now they claim it didn't affect other races, but that is a load of crap. Miami-Dade, Palm Beach, Hillsborough, & a couple others also affected.

Also, Palm Beach has above 100% voter turnout and Hernando county has ZERO votes. Florida definately needs to be recounted. But since the new touchscreens don't even provide an audit trail, you are gonna have to vote again.

 

[Ldir]

Originally posted by: glugglug

Originally posted by: Robor
At least it's not my state (Florida) getting all the focus this time!

Actually it is one of the big attention areas. There is a bug with the touchscreen systems used in all the largest (and most liberal) counties in Florida where the count rolls over after 32767 votes per precinct and starts counting backwards. This bug reversed one of the amendment decisions and affected the passing margin on one of them by almost 80,000 votes in Broward County. Right now they claim it didn't affect other races, but that is a load of crap. Miami-Dade, Palm Beach, Hillsborough, & a couple others also affected.

Also, Palm Beach has above 100% voter turnout and Hernando county has ZERO votes. Florida definately needs to be recounted. But since the new touchscreens don't even provide an audit trail, you are gonna have to vote again.

If this turns out to be true, I agree with Bill Maher. Florida has to sit out the next presidential election. They do not get to participate until they can get it right. It is not rocket science.

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Robor
I voted for Kerry and I'm far from a Bush supporter so remember that when I say/ask this...

1. If the hack was this easy, who's to say Kerry supporters didn't do the same thing?

2. If a few thousand or even 10's of thousands of votes were fraud, Bush still won the popular vote by like 3.5 million votes.

3. Kerry won a few states by a very narrow margain as well. If the close calls in Bush wins are recounted the close calls for Kerry will surely be rechecked as well.

All the more reason to fully audit all of these voting systems and force the companies to reveal their source code and audit trails to investigators.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: conjur

All the more reason to fully audit all of these voting systems and force the companies to reveal their source code and audit trails to investigators.

So how long do you expect to continue posting about how the election was stolen?

You've already said you don't think the errors will change the outcome of the presidential election...

Don't you think that the responsible thing to do is to contact your state & federal representatives & demand a paper trail might be a more productive use of your time?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: conjur

All the more reason to fully audit all of these voting systems and force the companies to reveal their source code and audit trails to investigators.

So how long do you expect to continue posting about how the election was stolen?

You've already said you don't think the errors will change the outcome of the presidential election...

Don't you think that the responsible thing to do is to contact your state & federal representatives & demand a paper trail might be a more productive use of your time?

Uh, care to show me where I've said the election is stolen? Methinks you have me confused with someone else.

As for fixing our voting systems, I have sent letters (well, emails) to my Representative and Senators. Also, the House Judiciary Committee is involved and the GAO has been asked to look into it. It's not like it's going to go away without someone looking into it.

 

[Tarpon6]

glugglug You need to stop posting garbage. Please research the FACTS. There were zero vores in Hernando County? Really? Is that true? No it is not. You radicals post what ever you want without looking up even the easiest to find facts. Here the results for Hernado County thanks to CNN. There are just 80,000 or so votes..

Originally posted by: glugglug

Actually it is one of the big attention areas. There is a bug with the touchscreen systems used in all the largest (and most liberal) counties in Florida where the count rolls over after 32767 votes per precinct and starts counting backwards. This bug reversed one of the amendment decisions and affected the passing margin on one of them by almost 80,000 votes in Broward County. Right now they claim it didn't affect other races, but that is a load of crap. Miami-Dade, Palm Beach, Hillsborough, & a couple others also affected.

Also, Palm Beach has above 100% voter turnout and Hernando county has ZERO votes. Florida definately needs to be recounted. But since the new touchscreens don't even provide an audit trail, you are gonna have to vote again.

thanks to CNN.

 

[Pliablemoose]

Originally posted by: conjur

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: conjur

All the more reason to fully audit all of these voting systems and force the companies to reveal their source code and audit trails to investigators.

So how long do you expect to continue posting about how the election was stolen?

You've already said you don't think the errors will change the outcome of the presidential election...

Don't you think that the responsible thing to do is to contact your state & federal representatives & demand a paper trail might be a more productive use of your time?

Uh, care to show me where I've said the election is stolen? Methinks you have me confused with someone else.

As for fixing our voting systems, I have sent letters (well, emails) to my Representative and Senators. Also, the House Judiciary Committee is involved and the GAO has been asked to look into it. It's not like it's going to go away without someone looking into it.

Yes, that would be another recently registered rather prolific poster.

So I guess the question is How long are you going to keep beating a dead horse?

 

[conjur]

Originally posted by: Pliablemoose

Originally posted by: conjur
Uh, care to show me where I've said the election is stolen? Methinks you have me confused with someone else.

As for fixing our voting systems, I have sent letters (well, emails) to my Representative and Senators. Also, the House Judiciary Committee is involved and the GAO has been asked to look into it. It's not like it's going to go away without someone looking into it.

Yes, that would be another recently registered rather prolific poster.

So I guess the question is How long are you going to keep beating a dead horse?

The horse has to die first.

Or, do you think our election process is 100% accurate and foolproof and requires no changes?

 

[Michael]

Voter and vote counting fraud is serious. We always need to look out for it and it is reasonable to push our government for better systems and better checks and balances.

That said, you also need to be careful and balanced when making claims about it. Chicken little does not get change to happen.

Michael