it's official, i'm a liberal now

[Vic]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: Vic
Simple minds trying to apply simple solutions to complex problems are quite probably the ultimate recipe for disaster.

Like the Republican solution has been so succesful :roll:

You should know, Dave... you (not I) are the Republican who voted for GW. More importantly, you are the worst simple-mind simple-solution finder I've ever seen.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp
It's OK to want national health care because you are selfish. Conservatives want lower taxes because they are selfish. Corporations want lower regulations because they are selfish.
Liberals can act out of selfishness just like conservatives.

The issue is that there is very little selfless about wanting national health care. It's like if I claimed to be selfless while I demanded that you make my mortgage payments.

And please don't argue that 2 wrongs make a right. That's as much a fallacy as is the false dilemma of "liberals" and "conservatives."

Simple minds trying to apply simple solutions to complex problems are quite probably the ultimate recipe for disaster.

It is perfectly legitimate to want national health care for selfish reasons. That is my point. Not that it's selfless. Conservatives expect liberals to be selfless, why they worship selfishness. I think everyone should vote their own self interest and not unilaterally surrender their position because the other side calls it selfish.

Socialists claim to be selfless, when in fact they're as selfish as the worst spoiled brat. That was my point.

And capitalists want to have their cake and eat it too.

When it comes to health care, it seems to me that one side of the argument has the good of the whole population in mind and the other is only worried about themselves.

Now which side is selfish??

 

[forfor]

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: Ryan
What of the millions who cannot afford the best doctor - should they receive lesser treatment because they cannot afford it? Why should you receive better cancer treatment/preventative healthcare than an individual who can't afford it?

The economics of capitalism need not apply when we are dealing with the lives of people.

Your damn right they apply! Moreso with health care.
If you set limits you set quality. If the poor downtrodden lessers cant afford it, well tough for them. Know why i feel that way? Because the thought of me having to pay their healthcare AND me getting substandard healthcare as well is a damn hard pill to swallow.

If they want better healthcare they can get off their ass and get a job and pay for healthcare like the rest of us who want healthcare. Its not MY job to take care of you. Your a big boy now, you dont wear diapers. YOU need to be responsible for YOUR life. Your life is not my respnsiblity nor my concern.

So if they were born to a poor family in the middle of nowhere and their family didn't guide them to education and else, they should be let rot? You people disgust me. Just because you were born to a maybe rich, maybe average, maybe normal family doesn't mean everyone was as fortunate as you are. There are hundreds of thousands maybe millions of people in this country who weren't born into normal families. They had drug dealers, poor farmers, cheap construction workers as parents who didn't give a damn or didn't have the chance to give a damn about their kids. I am a fiscal conservative for almost every damn reason too but healthcare is different. Props to the Europeans for achieving what we couldn't in a century of being a "superpower" :roll: :thumbsdown:

Edit: darn bad typo.

 

[forfor]

Originally posted by: Aj1966

now i just see what i think should be "owed" to us. I hate to use that word, but i think it fair.

So, I owe YOU? For what? Who is responsible for employment? What about retirement? Who is responsible for poor planning?

Then, you proceed to tour the US on a trip, when you have no funds or insurance. And I am to pay for your poor decision making?

What of the millions who cannot afford the best doctor - should they receive lesser treatment because they cannot afford it? Why should you receive better cancer treatment/preventative healthcare than an individual who can't afford it?

The economics of capitalism need not apply when we are dealing with the lives of people.

So, why not throw ALL economics/reasoning out the window, because everything that happens in life is a part of "the lives of people"? Once again, you're asking for free handouts and don't believe that people can afford better should be allowed to have better.

Pardon me, but if I have to wait months on end for low level surgery (i.e. Canada) if I can afford not to, I still should not be allowed to purchase better care? People who think like you end up trying to write laws such as these:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/healthcare/


It's official:

You have no grasp of reality, and magically want there to be funding for everything you need when you contribute nothing.

Too bad you lack reading comprehension.

He has the funds. They just won't accept it.

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: 1EZduzit

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp

Originally posted by: Vic

Originally posted by: senseamp
It's OK to want national health care because you are selfish. Conservatives want lower taxes because they are selfish. Corporations want lower regulations because they are selfish.
Liberals can act out of selfishness just like conservatives.

The issue is that there is very little selfless about wanting national health care. It's like if I claimed to be selfless while I demanded that you make my mortgage payments.

And please don't argue that 2 wrongs make a right. That's as much a fallacy as is the false dilemma of "liberals" and "conservatives."

Simple minds trying to apply simple solutions to complex problems are quite probably the ultimate recipe for disaster.

It is perfectly legitimate to want national health care for selfish reasons. That is my point. Not that it's selfless. Conservatives expect liberals to be selfless, why they worship selfishness. I think everyone should vote their own self interest and not unilaterally surrender their position because the other side calls it selfish.

Socialists claim to be selfless, when in fact they're as selfish as the worst spoiled brat. That was my point.

And capitalists want to have their cake and eat it too.

When it comes to health care, it seems to me that one side of the argument has the good of the whole population in mind and the other is only worried about themselves.

Now which side is selfish??

You're right. You are only concerned about forcing other people into giving you what you won't earn for yourself, damn the cost because you don't expect to pay for it. It doesn't get much more selfish than that.
The "capitalist" side of the argument would free up healthcare until it was cheap and readily available everywhere. If you want to see what "capitalist" healthcare could look like, look at LASIK clinics.

 

[Fern]

Originally posted by: theblackbox

..............We would have no problems paying these premiums but why should we, when someone else unemployed can get better benefits through the state or the government without paying such high fees..............

On the one hand, it sounds as if you're bitter that you can't get in on the "free benefits" (welfare, medical coverage etc) that the poor recieve in our "social net" here in the USA. These programs are (should be) "need based", your owns words seem to indicate that you do have the "need' given your wealth.

OTOH, you want to change you're political philosophy to the party that is seen as supporting those very type of entitlement programs- which, even if they expand is still unlikely to include yourself? Or do you somehow think that given the Dems "bash the rich/class warfare" type position they are really going to expend/give benefits to the "rich"?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, but this strikes as some very muddled/confused political/philisophical thinking. Essentially, you can't get the same type of health care policy as a private individual that "group employers" get and think that is somehow unfair. Further, you complain about the poor getting these health care benefits for "free" (which they aren't free, someone pays) and so you declare yourself a "liberal".

Poor people get food stamps, yet the grocery stores charge you "retail" price. Shall we have grocery stores "nationalized" and food provided to all at government costs?

(And no, similar to health care insurance, companies can buy grocery items in bulk for a substanial discount over retail grocery store prices).

Originally posted by: forfor
Too bad you lack reading comprehension.

He has the funds. They just won't accept it.

Re-read his post above: He has the funds, they WILL accept his money, it's just that he feels the cost is too high etc.

Fern

 

[JD50]

Did the OP ever show up again in this thread or is he still sulking over the fact that we (the tax payers) don't want to pay for his year long vacation?

 

[wiin]

Originally posted by: theblackbox
So, back in August I left my job of 7 years with a software company and then we sold our vet clinic and moved to the beach in SC. We are patiently waiting for the end of march when we will start the 2007 thru hike of the a.t.
When I left the software company, I gave up my health insurance, which covered my wife as well with no pre-exisitng conditions. She is diabetic.
Since we are both unemployed right now, gainfully unemployed that is, we went to get individual insurance and we were told that my wife could not get covered under insurance unless she joined a ship, which was well over 500 bucks a month just for her. They said as a consellaion, it would be cheap to insure me.
Historically, I've always been fairly conservative when it comes to government, and liberal when it comes to personal issues such as abortion, drugs, and the such.
I almost dropped dead in the chair when they said this to us about my wife. I was amazed and sickened that our fat cow of an insurance system wouldn't take my money, and add to their bankroll. All we wanted was catastrophic. thats it, no rx, nothing...just in case.
when i left the agents office, i decided there and then that the policy of empowerment i had always preached was at an end, I have decided that now i live for entitlement. I now am looking foward to the chance of government sponsored health care, howevert slim. I want my part of this country, what i always gave year to year in taxes i want back.
so now i have decided i will support the liberal agenda, vote democratic from here out and fight for my hard earned benefits i deserve now we both have no jobs...

My wife pointed out something funny to me, she said " you notice when we were working and paying taxes (a lot of), we were conservative, now, we don't work, we're liberal."

I thought about it and ironically she was right.

The government has screwed the pooch with the insurance industry, and now i see that. Now i'll wait and hopefuly collect what i deserve, as does every other american.
until then, our catrostrophic insurance will be the same as south of the border. If we need something, we'll use the emergency room, i will be a ward of the state, whichever state i am in at the time.

You left your job, sold your vet clinic, and now you are whining? If you had stayed, you wouldn't be in the predicament you are in. If you had not sold your clinic, you wouldn't be in the predicament you are in now. Take responsibility for your action dude. You are an educated person, go look for a job. go start you vet clinic. But, for pete's sake, quit your whining. Be a liberal if you want but quit your whining.

 

[randym431]

The way IT IS in THIS country is "good job = insurance". "Bad or no job = no insurance".
Then there is walmart "job should NOT = good insurance".

Thats the way it is. And its WRONG. This country COULD have national insurance and affordable. We'd just have to cut out greed from the congress, drug companies and doctors. Good luck with THAT...