It's the economy stupid!

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Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
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Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: Zakath15
Originally posted by: MrWizzard
The economy is like a rollercoster no matter who is in office people just like to blame the president!
I mean common you think clinton made the economy prosper? Like he was directly responsible?
And the rich do deserve more tax cuts than the poor. They pay most of the taxes anyway.

He wasn't directly responsible, but many of his fiscal policies helped foster the stable growth we enjoyed throughout the mid to late 1990's.

Yea, like his fiscal policy to have Al Gore as his Vice President. Because Al Gore invented the internet, and the internet made the economic boom. It all makes sense now...

Three major strategies... decreasing the budget deficit, encouraging and providing money for programs designed to give tax credits and other incentives with regards to health care and educatione, and opening up various international markets. The economic success we enjoyed was not due entirely to his policies, but, again, they helped to create an environment where it could take place. These policies are well known by most people with even a rudimentary understanding of macroeconomics.

Do you have evidence to the contrary or do you just want to make juvenile Al Gore or blowjob jokes? Because unless you provide the former, I'm just going to ignore the rest of your posts in this thread.
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,037
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Originally posted by: Zakath15
Originally posted by: SagaLore
Originally posted by: Zakath15
Originally posted by: MrWizzard
The economy is like a rollercoster no matter who is in office people just like to blame the president!
I mean common you think clinton made the economy prosper? Like he was directly responsible?
And the rich do deserve more tax cuts than the poor. They pay most of the taxes anyway.

He wasn't directly responsible, but many of his fiscal policies helped foster the stable growth we enjoyed throughout the mid to late 1990's.

Yea, like his fiscal policy to have Al Gore as his Vice President. Because Al Gore invented the internet, and the internet made the economic boom. It all makes sense now...

Three major strategies... decreasing the budget deficit, encouraging and providing money for programs designed to give tax credits and other incentives with regards to health care and educatione, and opening up various international markets. The economic success we enjoyed was not due entirely to his policies, but, again, they helped to create an environment where it could take place. These policies are well known by most people with even a rudimentary understanding of macroeconomics.

Do you have evidence to the contrary or do you just want to make juvenile Al Gore or blowjob jokes? Because unless you provide the former, I'm just going to ignore the rest of your posts in this thread.
Must have been a Freudian slip, I think you meant to say "Clinton".

1. Decrease deficit - how does that help the economy?
2. Tax credits for social programs - how does that help the economy?
3. Various international markets - how does that help our economy?

If you think raising taxes to pay off debt while still funding more social programs and selling technology secrets to the chinese and moving labor jobs over seas is so great, then why did the economy appear to tank within months Bush was elected? Is the economy [i[that[/i] fragile? If Clinton had stayed in office another 2 years, would we be better off right now? Would 9-11, Enron, and Worldcom not been as big of an impact?
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
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Originally posted by: SagaLore

Must have been a Freudian slip, I think you meant to say "Clinton".

1. Decrease deficit - how does that help the economy?
2. Tax credits for social programs - how does that help the economy?
3. Various international markets - how does that help our economy?

If you think raising taxes to pay off debt while still funding more social programs and selling technology secrets to the chinese and moving labor jobs over seas is so great, then why did the economy appear to tank within months Bush was elected? Is the economy [i[that[/i] fragile? If Clinton had stayed in office another 2 years, would we be better off right now? Would 9-11, Enron, and Worldcom not been as big of an impact?

No, I fully intended to say "blowjob", since the majority of Clinton jokes revolve around blowjobs or Hillary having testicles.

I'll just do a shameless cut and paste from a paper I coauthored a couple months ago.

The fiscal policies that President Clinton and Congress passed in 1993 had a dramatic effect on the economy. The first strategy, to reduce the budget deficit, was very successful. Between 1993 and 2000, the structural budget deficit was reduced from $290 billion to a structural surplus of $124 billion (Economic Report of the President, 2000). Total outlays by the government became the smallest since 1979 because of expenditure cuts, whereas tax revenues had increased because of higher tax rates. Also, because productivity growth resulted in lower unemployment, higher wages by households, and increasing profits for firms, tax receipts increased. Clinton had pledged that 100% of any future surpluses go to strengthen Social Security, this increased consumer confidence and thus increased aggregate demand. In addition, the reduction of the budget deficit increased national savings and hence reduced long- term interest rates, stimulating business investment and further productivity growth, and increasing aggregate demand (Economic Report of the President, 1998).
The second fiscal strategy, to ?invest? in America, was also successful. Many education, health, and family tax credits were created or expanded. Clinton?s education and training programs created twenty million new jobs. By the end of Clinton?s second term, unemployment was at its lowest rate in 29 years, 4.2%. Previously, economists had thought that an unemployment level below 5% was beyond the natural rate of unemployment and that this would overheat the economy. The 1990?s proved this not to be the case (Frankel, 2002). Labor markets in the 1990?s were tight and with employment growing, this put upward pressure on wages. Between 1993 and 1998, real income rose by 9.9-11.7% for every quintile in the income distribution. In addition, output per hour accelerated at an annual growth rate of 2.8%. To boot, there was the largest drop in welfare ever before in history and there was no worsening of inequality (Economic Report of the President, 2000).
Clinton?s third strategy, to open markets and expand trade, also flourished. The era of globalization and information technology accelerated growth for the economy in ways never dreamed of in the early ?90?s. Trade policies such as in NAFTA, APEC, and WTO broke down global trade barriers. Decreasing restrictions enabled net capital inflows and thus capital investment to grow larger than would have been possible otherwise. This caused U.S. wages to increase and more jobs were created. Trade, as a share of GDP, increased 4.8% between 1991 and 1999.

The depression that began in 2000 is one of the weakest we have ever experienced; as well, the reasons and consequences are primarily cyclical, not due to any spectacular inefficiency on the part of either Clinton or Bush's economic policies. The stock market plunge was mostly a correction; there are few who would not say that the stock market, at the height of the Dow in 2000, was overvalued.

Depressions suck, but this has again been a fairly mild one. The corporate scandals and geopolitical instability are also large factors. I cannot make any statement regarding Clinton selling any sort of secrets to the Chinese, as I am not that familiar with that series of scandals.
 

Mavrick

Senior member
Mar 11, 2001
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BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
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I wonder what BOBDNs normal account here is when he's not trolling. Moonbeam? Nah, Moonbeam's is far more eloquent. Any other guesses?
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
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Originally posted by: BoberFett
I wonder what BOBDNs normal account here is when he's not trolling. Moonbeam? Nah, Moonbeam's is far more eloquent. Any other guesses?

We could ask the mods, .
 

Martgorb

Member
Mar 21, 2003
36
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"And here I thought the highest marginal tax rate was 39%
Assuming it was then the top 10% made an awfull lot of money... wish I was there too.
But, what could I do with a gazillion $? If the Corporations paid their CEO etc less they could afford pay the worker more and he'd pay more tax and we could reduce his tax... and break even on the deal."


Then do something about it. Start a business, live below your means and save, don't waste money on depreciating assets, don't become a baby factory, etc. Yes the top 10% made alot of money...and they busted their asses for it. Just admit the truth, you're a socialist.

Contrary to popular belief, very few people inherit their money. My mom's side of the family is mostly poor, didn't get an education, live in rural areas, and some didn't even learn to drive. My dad's side is mostly made of millionaires who busted their asses and have master's degrees, bought businesses and made them more profitable, etc. Not a one of them inherited a damn cent either. As for me, I'm currently somewhere in the bottom few % I'm sure. But I don't care, cut taxes, getting to that top 10% is a decade or two and some discipline away.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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Originally posted by: Martgorb
"And here I thought the highest marginal tax rate was 39%
Assuming it was then the top 10% made an awfull lot of money... wish I was there too.
But, what could I do with a gazillion $? If the Corporations paid their CEO etc less they could afford pay the worker more and he'd pay more tax and we could reduce his tax... and break even on the deal."


Then do something about it. Start a business, live below your means and save, don't waste money on depreciating assets, don't become a baby factory, etc. Yes the top 10% made alot of money...and they busted their asses for it. Just admit the truth, you're a socialist.

Contrary to popular belief, very few people inherit their money. My mom's side of the family is mostly poor, didn't get an education, live in rural areas, and some didn't even learn to drive. My dad's side is mostly made of millionaires who busted their asses and have master's degrees, bought businesses and made them more profitable, etc. Not a one of them inherited a damn cent either. As for me, I'm currently somewhere in the bottom few % I'm sure. But I don't care, cut taxes, getting to that top 10% is a decade or two and some discipline away.

Actually I'm a fiscal conservative and very much a capitalist. Socialism creates a dependency on the system that eliminates incentive for those who would benefit the most from a little get up and go. I posted earlier and tried to explain that my grandson jumped on the computer in my stead. I am sorry for being so careless. He is 18 and, I think, finding his way in the real world. I don't agree with his notion of what he posted. In fact, as a corporate controller I am very familiar with the "package" of incentives that are used to reward CEO's etc. for building wealth. The greatest percentage comes from stock options. This form of remuneration has no impact on the Income Statement. It does provide some cash flow if one wanted to reward the rank and file.
But, I am a "Demand Sider" and a "Buy American" thinker. I agrue all the time with my economist friends who support the Supply Side notion of economic theory. I am an accountant and teach accounting part time so I am biased. At the University I am alone in my thinking so it does not surprise me here.
As for tax cuts, I am for the return of tax in the form of incentives to the most appropriated sector that will created Demand. If you are a supply sider you'd want to give a tax cut to the rich and let it trickle down (generally). We simply disagree, I suppose.
I give extra credit to students who support the Demand Side. Not too many takers but I am still not swayed.

 

wyvrn

Lifer
Feb 15, 2000
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Besides being MAJOR flamebait, most of your claims are very weak. It sounds like you are just posting what you heard on some biased news program without doing any research yourself. Quite frankly, this post is crap.


Originally posted by: BOBDN
While discussing the war in Iraq at The War and the Middle East thread a discussion on the economy ensued. The member who began the thread asked that I start a new topic here and link it since the economic discussion was hijacking his thread.

I think it is hard to separate the war and the economy. With the recession dragging on Bush is pushing yet another tax cut targeted mainly at the top 10% of earners. The cost? $760 billion. The cost of the war? $75 billion so far. Projected cost to rebuild Iraq? $100 billion. This doesn't include the cost of rebuilding our military after the war. If we have the time. We may very well be involved in another conflict soon after this one ends if Rumsfeld gets his way. But who knows when the war may end?

My original point was this. Why can't people see what is happening to our nation since Bush came into office? We have lost 2.5 million jobs. We have been in a recession since Q1, 2001. We have gone from record surplus to record deficit. We are now engaged in a war that was started unnecessarily in that the weapons inspectors had Hussein in check. They found no WMD. Iraq wasn't attacking us or any of their neighbors as in 1991. Bush didn't, as his father did in '91, build a coalition, get UN approval, have a clear objective (is it WMD, disarmament of Hussein, freedom for the Iraqi people, regime change, war on terror?), doesn't have an exit strategy, etc.........

With the cost of the war, yet another Bush tax cut for the wealthy and the lingering recession this administration is doing more harm to our nation than our enemies (whoever they may be, they seem to change daily according to the administration's needs). Not to mention the attack on our rights, the environment, Social Security, the FDA... you get the picture.

I wonder if those Nader supporters still think there's no difference?

 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
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so you resort to ad hominem attacks when you can't come up with a real response?

No, I resort to attacks when I post all the info supporting my ideas and people keep coming up with the same tired BS. Read the info I posted above. Your view of history isn't supported by the facts. Mine is.
 

Feldenak

Lifer
Jan 31, 2003
14,093
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President's get too much credit when the economy is doing well and too much blame when it tanks. It's cyclical, the economy will rebound and then it will invariably tank, regardless of who is sitting in the White House.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
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Here's what I don't understand. Doesn't the president go to the Fed for advice on what to do? And the chairman of the Fed was Greenspan during the Clinton administration, and still is Greenspan now. So I don't understand what the problem is with Bush. Couldn't you just as easily blame Greenspan (or Clinton even) for letting the economy grow at an unsustainable rate, and thus leading to the current recession?

The president and the Fed chairman can work together as Clinton and Greenspan did. Or the president can pressure the Fed chairman to give his stamp of approval to irresponsible tax cuts as Bush did in 2001 with his budget busting treasury emptying $1.5 trillion tax cut targeted at the top 10% of taxpayers. I wont post the info again. See my posts above.

Greenspan lost all credibility backing Bush's tax cut. Republicans like to paint Democrats as "tax and spend." I have a scenario which is worse, "cut and spend." And everyone is aware of the strategy. Cut taxes, especially for those high income folks that finance your campaign (and even those high income folks who don't finance your campaign, greed will make most of them favor your tax cut), spend billions more than it is responsible to spend, oh, say on the military or wherever you like as long as it isn't any program to help anyone below the top 10%, then tell everyone there will have to be drastic cuts to avoid a deficit. But it really doesn't matter because your goal was to create a deficit in the first place to provide an excuse to cut social programs like Social Security, Medicare, school lunches, transportation, labor department, disability, FDA, money to help states pay for all those federally mandated programs that they must implement and any program that doesn't benefit your target group. That top 10%.

Problem is with the tax cut and the incresed spending you create record deficits. And for the people who ask, "How do deficits effect the economy?" Well, the US government has to borrow money to fill in that hole in the budget and then fund those deficits just as you would if you were out of money and had to borrow money, say on a second mortgage or just a loan to stave off bankruptcy. We wouldn't want the federal government to declare bankruptcy, would we? What would happen to "the full faith and credit of the US government"?

So the federal government (we taxpayers) have to pay INTEREST on the money borrowed to fill in the hole in the budget you create by giving the top 10% a huge tax cut. Where does the federal government borrow money? From the treasury. They just print more. Sounds easy. But printing all that extra money weakens the dollar. Then imports cost more. Our exports (as weak as they are) suffer as well.

This is voodoo economics. This isn't sound economic policy. But it is the economic policy we are getting under the Bush administration.

I tried to tell people during the 2000 presidential campaign, "Don't you remember what happened the last time we had a Bush in the White House"? I guess everyone remembers now. This Bush is worse than the last one. At least his father had the intellect to make up his own mind and at one point actually realized what voodoo economics was. This one doesn't have the intellect to stand up to the people in his administration that lead him around by the nose. This one can't even conduct a news conference. I suppose that's why he's had only one prime time news conference in 18 months, and that one was scripted.
 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
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Besides being MAJOR flamebait, most of your claims are very weak. It sounds like you are just posting what you heard on some biased news program without doing any research yourself. Quite frankly, this post is crap.

Read the info I posted above. It's not from biased news programs. It's from sources like the US Dept of Labor, Kiplinger's, The Wall Street Journal etc. So my claims aren't weak, your response is.

I don't listen to Fox so I don't get my info from biased news sources. I have myriad sources for news which include newspapers, local and national and international, radio, which includes NPR and the national networks, international, BBC world new service and TV news which I like least since it's become so homogenized every channel seems like the other.

I also like to read, listen and watch the business news. It's skewed like all news is but it is more reliable than most news for the simple reason people who control what we see and hear will lie, but they are much more honest when their money is involved. So no matter what the news source when they're talking about money they tend to be more reliable.

Kinda' like crime. You can murder someone in this country and get less time than if you rob a bank. The message? People are expendable but don't mess around with their money.

So, other than your unsubstantiated claim that I'm a flamebait and most of my claims are weak how about posting some info to back up your words. Like I did. Or didn't you bother to read any of the info I posted above. Just like all the other folks who can't argue the facts so they simply make unsubstantiated statements about the people who actually go through the trouble to back up what they post.

GO BACK UP ABOVE AND READ SOME OF THE INFO I POSTED. SOME OF THE LINKS I POSTED. THERE IS MUCH MORE INFO I CAN POST BUT POSTING IT IS OBVIOUSLY WASTING MY TIME SINCE PEOPLE LIKE YOU DON'T TAKE THE TIME TO READ ANYTHING AND ARE SO BRAINWASHED THEY SIMPLY SPEW THE PARTY LINE FROM FOX TV.

If you have some info you'd like to post to refute the info I posted please post it. Otherwise your baseless accusations are just BS.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
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BOBDN - there are few who would find legitimate fault with your data. I agree with most of your opinions.

However, when you express an opinion about a president based purely along party lines or family association, in the eyes of many you immediately discredit yourself. It affects my willingness to believe your words.
 

yoda291

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
5,079
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Here's my, admittedly limited, view on the whole matter. If you disagree, doesn't bother me. If you agree, whatever. So long as you understand my position, I'm happy. Feel free to skip over stuff...it's long and I don't think you need to read everything, just skim til you get to something that catches your eye. The last paragraph or two generally sum up my point.

You can't really blame bush for the economic downturn. Granted, he's made a few choices with this nation that I would most certainly not agree with. I also strongly believe that his actions are not for humanitarian reasons or for any of the wacked out garbage I hear on the news of liberating people and that it's gonna put big punch in the head for the national deficit. Honestly, going off topic for a sentence, if he were to just say something that made sense to me like "I'm goin to war cuz my daddy didn't finish it" or "I'm goin in and comin out with gasoline" ... I would not have ANY problem with it. But the economy can't be blamed on Bush for the simple reason that the economy is controlled by factors out of his control. He had nothing to do with the whole enron crock pot o trouble. He had nothing to do with 9/11 (unless you're one of those conspiracy theorists). History also shows us that presidents generally can do little to the economy and are often just swayed into action by the general consensus.

For instance, everyone learns in grade school that FDR with his new deal pulled out of the great depression. Very untrue. Granted, he created a lot of jobs, but at best, he only slowed the degradation of the economy. If you look at the impact his reforms had on the economy, he barely made a dent, despite the fact that he passed hundreds of new ideas through congress in assembly line fashion. It was the World War and the mass industrialization that pulled us out. The debt incurred for the war, IMO, is good because it's not US debt to foreign markets, rather, it's about as direct an infusion of government capital in American industry as you can get. This money goes to military defense companies and pays the wages of americans. It's money that will come back to the US because, in case you haven't noticed, the tax system in this country is geared so that any time anyone moves any money, the government gets its share. It's a debt America incurred to itself pretty much.

As far as SS, Medicare, and Welfare are concerned...I fully believe that they can be reasonably cut or at least trimmed. As far as SS goes, I don't see why it can't be paid to those after a certain age and not taken out of the taxes of the previous generation. once again, it's a debt that the government should get returned to itself given sufficient time. Simply require those who collect SS to live in the states. Medicare, IMO, is a good program that's been abused an awful lot. The cost of health care in this country is absolutely ludicrous. Look at your hospital bill and tell me that it's fair that it costs over a year's wages for some to have your appendix removed. Imagine paying it without medical insurance. You can hardly blame doctors tho. They're some of the most taxed and stressed professionals ever and they take home precious little because of insurance. On top of that, they have the hippocratic oath that binds them into service. Add our "sue the doctor" mentality and you have a very stupid situation develop and deeply rooting itself into society. Medicare is a good crutch to lean on, but I'd much prefer not needing the crutch at all. Welfare, IMO, is just plain stupid. It's WAY too easy to abuse and it serves no practical purpose anymore. Those who need it don't get enough. Those who don't need it get way too much. I say kill it. It's funny too, however. Those who look to the government are usually the first in line to proclaim "Kill the commie bast@rds" when they are the ones who want the need based system socialism offers.

And as far as the "the top 10% of the population" argument goes. It doesn't work. All it does is to further blind the masses of people to a rational way of thinking. By saying the top 5% of the population owns 40% of the wealth implies that somehow, someone isn't getting their share. That the 5% of the population up there is going around robbing homes while the owners sleep. You realize, however, that no one ever seems to say the top 5% of the population GENERATE 40% of the nation's wealth. This is closer to the truth. If you're gonna say, well they have the means to create that level of wealth, it's not fair...don't bother. I agree. If i had a million dollars, I could easily generate 1000 dollars compared to a guy on the street with a buck fifty and a pack of smokes. I just have more options open to me. The fact is, so long as the US takes in more money than it spends or loses more money than it takes in...it's not a zero sum game as some would have you believe. It implies that if I work my nads off and bust a hump working at a job I hate to make 1 million dollars...I've somehow impoverished some fellow in bumblefvck alaska because I make money and he doesn't.

People who feel that they're being screwed by large corporations need to open their eyes. To them, inflow is a dirty word and the mega millionaire is some evil tyrant unwilling to part with the wealth they've earned and give it to them, who have done nothing and risked nothing. It implies that, if I make money, I am duty bound to give my wealth to someone in need based on little more than the virtue that they want what I have. Honestly, the corporations ARE the American economy. Without them, we'd all have little mom and pop stores that would stagnate. Ship overseas? Nope, no shipping company large enough. Ship cross country? can't turn a profit, costs too much. Internet? No backbone or infrastructure to support tech industry. Tech industry? No capital to research and innovate. Professional Sports? HAHAHA. Entertainment? No production company with capital. Eventually Bob will out sell Bill and form a larger company that CAN handle a national infrastructure...but then Bob becomes the bad guy. Bill starves and this country will shut him down.

The problem in this country can't be solved by pointing fingers at bush or the war or putting little changes that cater to everyone. There are lots of fundamental problems in this country that should be addressed, but prolly won't be until I'm long dead and eaten by worms. I'll list what I THINK are the issues needed to be addressed. I'll use IT, since that's the field I'm most familliar with, but it applies across the board in general.

First, this country has not scaled its production and workforce like other places have. You could argue it'd be much too hard to do so with an infrastructure this large, but it's still an issue. The quality of workforce this country has has degraded in recent times. It used to be when you hired someone to run your cables, they were skilled professionals who could theoretically build you cat5 from a bag of pennies if necessary...someone who could answer any question about the cabling you had. If you hired helpdesk technicians, you got people who could diagnose 90% of problems inside of 4 minutes and were efficient enough to keep chugging the whole workday easily. Nowadays, through bad business practice or just incompetence of staff and management, you often get a virtually army of techies who all run to the 1 or 2 guys who actually know what the hell they're doing. You don't advance without the office politic backing you up. The competent techs are overrun because their subordinates are incompetent and look like fools to management who don't do anything to promote good work. They lose their jobs and some moron gets a promotion. If they can't do their job, they point a finger, some guy loses his job and management throws more money and replaces him with 5 more idiots. And people wonder why companies have no qualms about firing massive amounts of people when things look down....the workforce they have is mostly worthless. Problem is, now you can't tell who knows what they're doing and who doesn't. I've literally seen 1 technician take over the workload of the last 12 people who were laid off after he got on and not worry too much about it. How ridiculous is this? What's even more ridiculous is that it's somehow become the norm.

Second, this country takes away too much money from the workforce. It used to be, you had incentive to work hard. You made money that bought luxuries and made it possible to live. Now, however, your paycheck hasn't scaled with the increase in cost of living nor with the amount of money the government needs and when you see the check, you often find that the government took a big old bite out of it. This leads to laziness. Why should I bust my hump when bill lounges all day, gets paid 14k more than me, is loved by management, when uncle sam just takes off money I earned...leaving me just enough to survive. The economic system needs to be worked over. Cutting government expenses helps. Cut the taxes that the average joe pays helps too. But it also leads back to the fact that businesses have no way of really telling who is producing and who is consuming. Honestly, the job-seeker shouldn't have to see a 60k/yr job and instantly calculate he'll only take home about 40k after taxes. That's a bit harsh.

Third, the quality of person in this country has fallen DRAMATICALLY where it should have INCREASED. It used to be that high school graduates could read and do math at a high school level. Nowadays, you can find 4th graders who are more well read and educated than your average high schooler. What does it say about a nation whose children come out of high school through social promotion and whose only skill involves lobbing spitballs with deadly accuracy? Whose one hope is to get hit by a car and sue the living sh|t outta the driver? This is the nice thing about the military, you get to actually know what the hell you're doing, or you get booted. Teachers are not respected at all anymore. Indeed, teachers being assaulted and molested is 10 o clock news gold. We also spend too much money on producing idiots at an alarming rate. In this country, there is a huge gap between those that innovate and those that do not. Those who do well in school are often harrassed by their classmates. They are labeled nerds and garner respect only as a con man regards his mark. You have boards of parents who are more concerned with the quality of the cafeteria food than the quality of education. You have boards that are so conservative in their thinking, they halt and even REVERSE the influx of technology in the classroom, preferring old school and disproven methodologies. Take a look at South Korea or China. They consistently produce better results in their students than the vast majority of the US(exceptions exist in many suburban and urban areas) using a fraction of the budget that the US pumps into each student. Their schools are wired and their teachers are respected. There is no social promotion nor is there need. Parents send their children to school to learn, not to be watched over while they go off to work. If you don't perform at least rudimentarily, you get shipped to military school. You lose your friends and familiar environment. Scoring well is a plus in school, not a burden. A student who does well is also more likely to help his fellow classmates. The level of education received in high school generally surpasses that of a US college graduate. No wonder many firms outsource to foreign nations for IT work. It's not the cost, it's the fact that they get a better value and people who grow up knowing the value of hard work and can spend less. I guarantee you it'll return more to pay 5 technicians who know what they're doing and can acquire skills quickly, than 100 technicians who just b|tch all day and do maybe 10 minutes of work a week.

My point? <- read this for the summation
This country's problems can't be blamed on any one group or person. It's EVERYONE'S fault. It's my fault. It's your fault. Hell, I'll even venture to be the first to say it's my fault. Flame me. Post threads about me. I admit it. It's my fault. It's my fault for playing games when I could be teaching people to be more tech literate. It's my fault for watching the television when I could be writing a note to my senator or composing an email to DC. It's my fault for reading a novel when I should be in the latest Bd of Ed meeting yelling at the board members to get off their lazy as$es and stop screwing around. It is my firm belief, that if you wanna point a finger and blame someone for something, the first place you should start is with the guy in the mirror, other people second. You can hardly expect others to do something, if you yourself are not willing to shoulder the blame for inaction. It's only when you can say that you're part of the solution, can you point to others and say they are the problem.

People who help old ladies across streets, people who teach you and make you a better person, people who protect you at night, or even people you know like those who provide hosting and other services freely, people like the grand naguses(nagusi?) who scour around and freely post deals they find, people who make you laugh, and people who make you think instead of follow. These people are part of the solution because they are fixing problems. They are people who could easily say "fsck it, their problems ain't my problems, I don't owe anyone anything" and, instead, take time and effort to correct something. I imagine they contribute to many of the problems we perceive, but it's a damn sight better than people like me right now, who's just throwing up opinion on a board and pointing a long finger at myself.

Sorry for the length, it won't happen again, I'm pretty much done as far as my opinion goes.
 

Infos

Diamond Member
Jul 20, 2001
4,001
1
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BOBDN

You're wasting your time talking to the right-wingers
They not very good at comprehension or change or facing the truth.

 

BOBDN

Banned
May 21, 2002
2,579
0
0
Actually I'm a fiscal conservative and very much a capitalist. Socialism creates a dependency on the system that eliminates incentive for those who would benefit the most from a little get up and go. I posted earlier and tried to explain that my grandson jumped on the computer in my stead. I am sorry for being so careless. He is 18 and, I think, finding his way in the real world. I don't agree with his notion of what he posted. In fact, as a corporate controller I am very familiar with the "package" of incentives that are used to reward CEO's etc. for building wealth. The greatest percentage comes from stock options. This form of remuneration has no impact on the Income Statement. It does provide some cash flow if one wanted to reward the rank and file.

I understand about your grandson having raised children of my own who are now on their own. Not to worry. Your grandson likely has a good time taking advantage of your screen name! My son would do much worse, I can assure you. He's the reason I upgraded to Windows XP Pro and encript all my files. I also disabled the "Guest" account and use the most secure settings.

I don't support socialism either. I have worked all my life, usually more than one job so I don't believe people should be given incentive to not work. But I do believe in a civilized society people who need a helping hand should be able to get one. There have been inequities in society since people began forming them. I'm not talking strictly about race although race has been the major source of inequality in our nation. I am referring to poverty as well as race. Poverty is color blind. And it's nice to read about those people who have been able to overcome poverty. For everyone of them there are a thousand who are unable.

What are the reasons for poverty in what we like to call the richest country in the world? Social programs? I think not. Our economy is big enough to lift every ship. But there are some very big yachts out there that take up way more than their share. And they perpetuate the status quo so they can keep those yachts afloat. The socialist programs in our country aren't in place for the poor or the working class. They are in place to maintain that status quo.

As for the package of incentives to reward CEO's for building wealth I would say that, just as some point out here, the economy is cyclical, these CEO's that build wealth many times happen to be in the right place at the right time. Does their presence justify the salaries they are paid? The CEO's who actually build wealth are a very small minority. Example: the CEO of Verizon Communications was paid $13.5 million in 2002. While Verizon was losing billions. The current treasury secretary, John Snow, was CEO of CSX. He received millions in pay and millions more in stock but CSX was in the red and their status was worsening for the past five years Snow was at the helm.

As for the stock options these CEO's and other top corporate officials receive, wasn't the recent problem with overstating profits a result of corporate execs trying to increase their company's worth so they could get more stock they could cash in before the company crashed ala Enron or Worldcom or others?

I have read that in Japan and other industrialized nations the person on the top floor earns approximately 10 times the amount the average worker earns. Sounds like a good ratio to me. The people on the top floor really don't have that much control over how well a company does. And in our country whether the company does well or not they are getting remunerated in record amounts while workers are being laid off or fired or having their retirement funds disappear.

That's the socialism I'm against. Like the Bush tax cuts. The socialism for the rich.



 

Dragnov

Diamond Member
Apr 24, 2001
6,878
0
0
Strictly focusing on only economics and immediately correlating/blaming politics and the President is incredibly shallow. By only looking at one aspect of politics such as the economy, you disregard the benefits/downfalls of other related issues that are affected also.

Furthermore, Congress controls the purse. If you really wanted to blame Bush w/ his narrow agenda or such, you should also then blame Congress for simply folding as many Democrats in Washington have been doing. It's not simply Bush who passed the budget.

Blame Bush. Blame Clinton. Damn greedy rich conservatives. Stupid hippie liberals. Blah blah blah. So much name calling.

All in all, things will go on and we will adjust accordingly as we always have. The public will respond.
 

Orsorum

Lifer
Dec 26, 2001
27,631
5
81
Originally posted by: Gr1mL0cK
Strictly focusing on only economics and immediately correlating/blaming politics and the President is incredibly shallow. By only looking at one aspect of politics such as the economy, you disregard the benefits/downfalls of other related issues that are affected also.

Furthermore, Congress controls the purse. If you really wanted to blame Bush w/ his narrow agenda or such, you should also then blame Congress for simply folding as many Democrats in Washington have been doing. It's not simply Bush who passed the budget.

Blame Bush. Blame Clinton. Damn greedy rich conservatives. Stupid hippie liberals. Blah blah blah.

All in all, things will go on and we will adjust accordingly as we always have.

Probably the best advice one can take.
 

yoda291

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
5,079
0
0
Originally posted by: Zakath15
Originally posted by: yoda291
Originally posted by: Zakath15
Shhh, yoda, no one here wants to listen to the voice of reason.

Dammit...I forgot where I was posting

That was an unintended pun, but the deliciousness of it...

haha...the sad part is, I imagine there's still someone trying to read through the whole thing.

I nominate myself for longest post of 2003.
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,037
21
81
Originally posted by: yoda291
Originally posted by: Zakath15
Originally posted by: yoda291
Originally posted by: Zakath15
Shhh, yoda, no one here wants to listen to the voice of reason.

Dammit...I forgot where I was posting

That was an unintended pun, but the deliciousness of it...

haha...the sad part is, I imagine there's still someone trying to read through the whole thing.

I nominate myself for longest post of 2003.

I would vote for you. You lost me at "Feel free to skip over stuff...".
 
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