ITT: We propose our own Kaveri SKUs

[monstercameron]

In all fairness, the 7850K is now $170 at NewEgg. That's with free shipping, too. That's still too expensive, but if we're going to talk about $100 G3258+mobo combos, then we should at least be fair to the poor old 7850K. Also, now that the 7600 is available in retail, maybe we should be comparing that to the G3258 instead of the 7850K. I am fairly certain that the right board(s) will be able to overclock it with bclk alone, though this usage is not well-documented.

The G3258 is a great chip, and beating it on general computing tasks is a tall order for Kaveri. That just isn't going to happen with Steamroller being what it is, especially when it has no L3 cache. The only way Kaveri wins is with OpenCL 2.0, HSA, and Mantle/DX12. Take that away and it's not a winning proposition.

this sentiment is with the assumption of a massive overclock and legacy x86 performance. I am pretty confident that stock speeds. Kaveri has the edge in multithreaded workloads that favor the integer side. Besides kaveri is $130 at microcenter...

 

[cbn]

Besides kaveri is $130 at microcenter...

Micro Center has some great in store only deals like the $130 A10-7850K. Unfortunately "in store only" greatly limits availability since a lot of us do not live near a Micro Center.

Instead I would like to see AMD release some type of value performance/value sweet spot Kaveri quad core APU that would be included in various sale priced mail order processor/motherboard bundles. This to compete with the various $100 and below Pentium G3258/motherboard mail order bundles.

 

[Vesku]

Desktop: 3 modules + 384 GCN units with UEFI settings for 45W, 65W, and 95W along with a clock/power setting of "CPU focus", "GPU focus", or "CPU+GPU balance"

Notebook: 2 modules + 384 GCN units ~25W power target with a "maximum" battery mode that switches to a 15W power target. AMD only provides it for units with 1080P+ IPS touchscreens, "tablet" hinges, slim at least partially metal chassis. (basically their ULV SKU and their regular SKU in one)

 

[easp]

The graphics on these things are clearly bottlenecked by RAM bandwidth, so, how they turn it up another notch with an A11-7900 with DDR4 support...

 

[SPBHM]

well, you could just double it, 4 modules, 1024sps, quad channel ddr3 200W TDP

realistically Kaveri needs lower prices, now with the A8 7600 becoming available Kaveri is finally something to be considered, 7850 should have been launched at $130

as for the imaginary SKU, the problem is memory, the only good and simple solution I can see would be soldered onboard GDDR5 but it would probably cost to much to have 8GB

 

[USER8000]

If the A10 7850K had been a six thread chip with the same IGP,it might have been enough TBH! It would probably mean the CPU section would be comparable to an FX6300 series or Core i3 series CPU for newer games with an external graphics card.

 

[cbn]

realistically Kaveri needs lower prices, now with the A8 7600 becoming available Kaveri is finally something to be considered

A8-7600 is a step in the right direction. However, I think even this reduced SKU is too much spec for the average budget user. (re: even at stock cpu and gpu speed, A8-7600 really needs 2133 MHz RAM to get the most from the Silicon).

Instead, what I would like (ideally) is an even low priced quad core that is not overkill for DDR3 1600 at stock cpu and gpu speeds, but still has the cpu and particularly gpu overclocking headroom to make use of DDR3 2133 MHz (or faster) RAM should it be installed.

 

[USER8000]

A8-7600 is a step in the right direction. However, I think even this reduced SKU is too much spec for the average budget user. (re: even at stock cpu and gpu speed, A8-7600 really needs 2133 MHz RAM to get the most from the Silicon).

Instead, what I would like (ideally) is an even low priced quad core that is not overkill for DDR3 1600 at stock cpu and gpu speeds, but still has the cpu and particularly gpu overclocking headroom to make use of DDR3 2133 MHz (or faster) RAM should it be installed.

I cannot vouch for the US market,but at least in the UK 1866MHZ to 2400MHZ DDR3 sets are around the same price as 1600MHZ ones!!

 

[Techhog]

I didn't think any of the games running on the PS4 APU ran at 1080P.

Joke post? Seriously, don't go "hurr durr consul" without any research. The majority or its games are 1080p, and some are even 60FPS.

That probably wouldn't translate well to PC, though 8 Jaguar cores and a 7850 would be a bit more limited than that on PC, especially without GDDR5. Not an ideal APU for us.

 

[DrMrLordX]

That is a good place to start.

Ideally, some of the testing should involve using typical end user hardware such as the following:

A8-7600 with dual channel DDR3 at varying speeds (1600, 1833, 2133, etc)

vs.

Pentium G3258 stock cooler overclocked on Non-Z board and a single stick of 4GB DDR3 RAM (speed at 1333 due to Non-Z board limitation) with R7 Radeon Discrete Video Card.

Side Note: I think 64 player Battlefield 4 @ 720p (low settings) on PC is an interesting target to look at also. What is the cheapest possible hardware combination (cpu, gpu, ram) for playing that at a respectable frame rate?

BF4 would be a good one to highlight Mantle, though there should be another benchmark that is non-Mantle compliant that runs okay on 2-4 threads, and then maybe Watchdogs to show a scenario in which a dual-core could struggle. Of course, we know the G3258 has problems with Watchdogs, so some might object to the inclusion of that title.

this sentiment is with the assumption of a massive overclock and legacy x86 performance. I am pretty confident that stock speeds. Kaveri has the edge in multithreaded workloads that favor the integer side. Besides kaveri is $130 at microcenter...

I realize that this is a Kaveri thread, but I must ask: is anyone really going to use the G3258 without overclocking it? There are cheaper Pentium options for those that do not wish to overclock.

Micro Center has some great in store only deals like the $130 A10-7850K. Unfortunately "in store only" greatly limits availability since a lot of us do not live near a Micro Center.

Indeed. And, really, there are plenty of people out there looking at the G3258 that might miss one of the ~$100 bundles too. It would be pretty easy for a consumer to pay $140-$170 for CPU + motherboard on the G3258 if they didn't shop around carefully (or if they specifically needed something from a particular motherboard not included in an available combo).

Instead I would like to see AMD release some type of value performance/value sweet spot Kaveri quad core APU that would be included in various sale priced mail order processor/motherboard bundles. This to compete with the various $100 and below Pentium G3258/motherboard mail order bundles.

I think the A8-7600 is as close as we're going to get to that point, and outside of OEM machines, the 7600 isn't all that widely-available. Maybe AMD will surprise us with cheaper Kaveri or Carrizo quadcore variants once they move to 20nm parts. Maybe.

 

[cbn]

BF4 would be a good one to highlight Mantle, though there should be another benchmark that is non-Mantle compliant that runs okay on 2-4 threads, and then maybe Watchdogs to show a scenario in which a dual-core could struggle. Of course, we know the G3258 has problems with Watchdogs, so some might object to the inclusion of that title.

Games that normally struggle with dual core are fine with me. I would just hope the game is also tested under more typical end user conditions (smaller GPU @ lower resolution/detail settings). This, not to make GPU the bottleneck, but rather to check for frame time variance differences.

P.S. Since we are talking value gamer hardware, I think the Linux games are important too (re: SteamOS, Linux Mint, Ubuntu etc). If gaming under a Linux OS cannot be tested, then maybe testing a few of the better Linux games also available on Windows (eg, Metro Last Light, Left 4 Dead 2, Civilization V etc.) would be close enough for the time being.

 

[cbn]

I cannot vouch for the US market,but at least in the UK 1866MHZ to 2400MHZ DDR3 sets are around the same price as 1600MHZ ones!!

Yes, I am glad to see new 1.65 volt 2 x 4GB 2133 MHz and 2400 MHz kits very close in price to 1.5 volt 1600 MHz kits.

But those are 8GB kits (not 4GB kits).

Also, as far as existing used RAM goes, DDR3 1600 and slower is what most people have.

 

[Rickyyy369]

Keep the 4 cores, 1024 SP's with quad-channel memory. A mid-range gaming system on a chip.

 

[cbn]

I think the A8-7600 is as close as we're going to get to that point, and outside of OEM machines, the 7600 isn't all that widely-available. Maybe AMD will surprise us with cheaper Kaveri or Carrizo quadcore variants once they move to 20nm parts. Maybe.

Well I do hope yields on 28nm improve to point where chips like the Athlon x 4 860K (unlocked quad core with 2MB cache, no iGPU) and A6-7400K (unlocked dual core with 1MB cache and 256 stream processor iGPU) are no longer necessary.

Instead of those two separate chips, I would rather see AMD make a single enthusiast value chip that combines all the strengths of Athlon x 4 860K and A6-7400K, but shares none of their weakness.

Athlon x4 860K x A6-7400K = A8-7500K (unlocked quad core with 2MB cache and 256 stream processor iGPU)

 

[SPBHM]

Keep the 4 cores, 1024 SP's with quad-channel memory. A mid-range gaming system on a chip.

if the GPU clock was the same as Kaveri (720MHz), and the rest double it would still be clearly slower than a 260x ($120 VGA?),

and the CPU performance unchanged is probably also only comparable to what you get with a 760K ($90?), not sure you can call it a mid range gaming system... also you would need 4 ram slots and sticks (2133), which adds cost... probably no worth it.
if you consider how expensive the 7850K is/was...

 

[SlowSpyder]

if the GPU clock was the same as Kaveri (720MHz), and the rest double it would still be clearly slower than a 260x ($120 VGA?),

and the CPU performance unchanged is probably also only comparable to what you get with a 760K ($90?), not sure you can call it a mid range gaming system... also you would need 4 ram slots and sticks (2133), which adds cost... probably no worth it.
if you consider how expensive the 7850K is/was...

Going by Newegg prices, the difference between the cheapest 1333MHz 2x4GB DDR3 kit and the cheapest 2133MHz 4x2GB DDR3 kit is only about $25.

 

[SPBHM]

Going by Newegg prices, the difference between the cheapest 1333MHz 2x4GB DDR3 kit and the cheapest 2133MHz 4x2GB DDR3 kit is only about $25.

it's not a lot, but it's additional cost.

as I said $90 CPU + $120 VGA would be enough to beat this 2 modules, 1024sps, quad ddr3 CPU, now the MB could also be a little more expensive because of VRMs (TDP would probably exceed 140w?) and quad ram, and add the $25, the CPU would have to cost something like the 7850K or less to make sense.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Well I do hope yields on 28nm improve to point where chips like the Athlon x 4 860K (unlocked quad core with 2MB cache, no iGPU) and A6-7400K (unlocked dual core with 1MB cache and 256 stream processor iGPU) are no longer necessary.

Instead of those two separate chips, I would rather see AMD make a single enthusiast value chip that combines all the strengths of Athlon x 4 860K and A6-7400K, but shares none of their weakness.

Athlon x4 860K x A6-7400K = A8-7500K (unlocked quad core with 2MB cache and 256 stream processor iGPU)

A product like that would certainly be interesting, though the jury's still out on how much harm the loss of half the L2 vs standard Kaveri will be. That being said, if AMD could sell such a part in the $70-$80 bracket, it could be the workhorse that sells the PC world on HSA.

 

[cbn]

That being said, if AMD could sell such a part in the $70-$80 bracket, it could be the workhorse that sells the PC world on HSA.

If AMD can increase value to a certain threshold, I would also hope it would encourage the retailers to begin creating various sale priced processor/motherboard bundles as well. This increases value even further. Unfortunately we don't see this happening with Athlon x 4 750K/760K or A6-5400k/6400K like we do with Pentium G3258.

In an ideal scenario (with sale priced gear and APU/motherboard bundle) I would be able to build a good quality all purpose Micro ATX gamer box for $240 and under:

Fractal Design Core 1000 (usually $20 AR, free shipping)
Corsair CX430 (usually $20 AR, free shipping)
APU/motherboard bundle ($100, but lets hope it is even cheaper)
4GB dual channel RAM (currently $45 to $50 on Newegg)
1TB HDD ($50 on sale, sometimes it drops to $40 AR)

Add a linux OS (like Steam OS or an Ubuntu based distro like Linux Mint running Steam) and now I have a console alternative for much less than Xbox One or PS4.

 

[VirtualLarry]

If AMD can increase value to a certain threshold, I would also hope it would encourage the retailers to begin creating various sale priced processor/motherboard bundles as well. This increases value even further. Unfortunately we don't see this happening with Athlon x 4 750K/760K or A6-5400k/6400K like we do with Pentium G3258.

In an ideal scenario (with sale priced gear and APU/motherboard bundle) I would be able to build a good quality all purpose Micro ATX gamer box for $240 and under:

APU/motherboard bundle ($100, but lets hope it is even cheaper)

Don't you think that would be stepping on their AM1 platform a bit? I don't see them selling that many AM1 boards / APUs, if you can get a Kaveri for $100 with a mobo. Then again, I'm not really sure how many Kaveri APUs they're selling at current prices, nor AM1 setups.

I'm starting to wonder if AM1 was a bad idea. I guess, for the power-constrained (or markets like India), it might make sense. I still think that AMD's "small core" APUs are a bit weak, especially for gaming.

 

[cbn]

I'm starting to wonder if AM1 was a bad idea. I guess, for the power-constrained (or markets like India), it might make sense. I still think that AMD's "small core" APUs are a bit weak, especially for gaming.

You make a good point about the price compression.

With that mentioned, I will say AM1 has one strong advantage over FM2 and FM2+ and that is the price of Mini-ITX boards.

With AM1 Mini-ITX is in the $30 range, but FM2 or FM2+ Mini-ITX starts at $84 on Newegg.

 

[monstercameron]

Am1goes much lower than kaveri min spec-wise. And am1 boards probably have more margin because they are relatively much simpler.

 

[cbn]

Am1goes much lower than kaveri min spec-wise. And am1 boards probably have more margin because they are relatively much simpler.

AM1 processor spec is lower, but I have to wonder how low end Kaveri APU (A4-7300) will compete against the high end socket AM1 Athlon 5350?

Previous locked FM2 dual core APUs from AMD have been pretty cheap, but offer really strong cpu performance compared to AM1. Here is the A4-6300 at $49.99:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819113349

(Richland Dual core @ 3.7 GHz base clock with 3.9 GHz turbo. 128 VLIW4 stream processors @ 760 MHz)


In comparison, A4-7300 will also be a locked dual core (Kaveri), but will have 192 GCN stream processors (a significant increase from the 128 GCN stream processors found on the AM1 APUs)

 

[Shehriazad]

Athlon FX 890

6 Kaveri CPU Cores clocked at 4.2 GHZ and 4.5 Turbo
95w TDP
2mb per module L2 cache (6mb total)
6mb L3 shared Cache
Official support for 2400/2666 DDR3 (just like the boards)

Reason for this?

Obviously because it would be a killer product.

Screw APUs...Athlons all the way.

 

[DrMrLordX]

The desire for a 3M/6T Steamroller on either AM3+ or FM2+ is palpable, but releasing such a chip would undercut AMD's ability to continue selling 4M/8T Piledrivers.

Plus, if we saw a 3M chip on FM2, it probably wouldn't have L3. Probably.