I've absolutely had it with store bought POS routers. Want to build my own.

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simas

Senior member
Oct 16, 2005
412
107
116
I have done something similar with pfsense (replacing store routers with home built solution and using old router as AP) specifically because I wanted to load balance two internet connections from two ISP. the experience was pretty simple and it just works. functionality within pfsense is worlds better than any router UI I interacted with.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,907
12,375
126
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Find a cheap 1U box on ebay and build a pfsense box. If you can't find one for cheap buy a 1U SuperMicro Atom barebones, that's what I had done if I had not found a cheap 1U box first.

Something like this:

http://www.ncix.com/detail/supermicro-barebone-server-sys-5015a-ehf-d525-1u-cd-58951.htm

Have to buy your own ram and hard drive though.

That hardware will more than run pfsense fine. I had it running on a P3 before, though after an update the P3 did not quite cut it when I got FTTH, it even struggled with my ADSL a bit.

A good firewall/router like pfsense is a good foundation to start a better network. Next you can add a managed switch and make the LAN port a trunk port then have pfsense handle the inter vlan routing rules and such. For wireless you can get Unifi APs. All this stuff is a big more expensive but it makes for a nice solid network with tons of options.
 

OogyWaWa

Senior member
Jan 20, 2009
623
0
71
Find a cheap 1U box on ebay and build a pfsense box. If you can't find one for cheap buy a 1U SuperMicro Atom barebones, that's what I had done if I had not found a cheap 1U box first.

Something like this:

http://www.ncix.com/detail/supermicro-barebone-server-sys-5015a-ehf-d525-1u-cd-58951.htm

Have to buy your own ram and hard drive though.

That hardware will more than run pfsense fine. I had it running on a P3 before, though after an update the P3 did not quite cut it when I got FTTH, it even struggled with my ADSL a bit.

A good firewall/router like pfsense is a good foundation to start a better network. Next you can add a managed switch and make the LAN port a trunk port then have pfsense handle the inter vlan routing rules and such. For wireless you can get Unifi APs. All this stuff is a big more expensive but it makes for a nice solid network with tons of options.

i ran mine with a 600mhz p3 for like 4 years... never had a problem with it and only reason i let it go was i had newer spare parts laying around
 

OogyWaWa

Senior member
Jan 20, 2009
623
0
71
There are so many networked (wireless or wired) devices in my home it is no wonder these store bought routers cant cope.
6 smartphones
6 tablets
3 gaming systems all wireless
Smart tv and blu ray devices
3 laptops
5 desktops
Its ridiculous.
I can even use two or more APs to split the wireless load.

are they all wireless? you need to consider the layer-1/2 here. that router/ap has to do a lot of 'crowd control' and error correction. not a big deal for a proper AP, but a crapper home one might fall over with all that + the burden of routing your internet traffic.

anyways... grab a cheap pfsense box and give it a whirl. alternatively, you can test by running i as a vm on one of your PCs. just give it an ethernet card (you can do via just 1 car with vlans and shit but that gets complicated, best if you can give it 2 physical ports for your test).
 

Ertaz

Senior member
Jul 26, 2004
599
25
81
I bought a dell T20 for $200 on a whim. Couldn't get pfsense to tun reliably as a direct install. Looking back, I should have run it in a VM, but I didn't. I got ClearOS to work and I'm really happy with it. Does all in one firewall and file server duty.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,907
12,375
126
www.anyf.ca
i ran mine with a 600mhz p3 for like 4 years... never had a problem with it and only reason i let it go was i had newer spare parts laying around

Probably depends on the type of traffic too, in my case it was mostly torrent traffic that killed it, it would just slow right down and I would get maybe 3mbps throughput at most. I wanted to replace it anyway since it had a SCSI drive and not SATA, so it was kinda a disaster waiting to happen if that drive failed. A replacement would have cost more than a whole new server.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Hmm. How do you guys feel about a 2.6GHz Pentium 4 based Celeron (socket 775) on an ASUS P5GL-MX with 2GB RAM fare for a router? Cause I have that laying here on a shelf. Just need a case, PSU, and two Intel NICs.
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
76
Hmm. How do you guys feel about a 2.6GHz Pentium 4 based Celeron (socket 775) on an ASUS P5GL-MX with 2GB RAM fare for a router? Cause I have that laying here on a shelf. Just need a case, PSU, and two Intel NICs.

Absolutely horrid.

There is a reason some hardware just needs to die. You're going to be running this thing 24/7, and you are going to use a Hotburst computer that will probably cost you about 100W?! Compared to a high-end store-bought router running a good alternative firmware like DD-WRT (my dual-core ARM 3x3 11ac router, the WZR-1750DHP, doesn't even hit 10W under high load, and, oh yes, it's perfectly stable and reliable, too--my previous DD-WRT router that I upgraded from lasted almost 300 days without a single reboot or even a glitch, until its uptime was ruined by a long power outage that overwhelmed my UPS, and this current router so far appears to be equally reliable), you'll be paying over $230 extra in electrical costs over the course of 3 years (assuming a relatively cheap 10 cents per kWh; it would be far more if you live in a place with more expensive electricity, and that's also not counting the extra electrical costs incurred in the summer by your air conditioner working harder to remove the extra heat generated by this thing).

For anything that runs for a long period of time--especially 24/7--you absolutely have to take into account efficiency, and I wouldn't touch anything older than a Sandy Bridge. A Bay Trail or Haswell Celeron board and CPU is inexpensive and its cost can be recouped within 1-2 years in energy savings in a place with cheap electricity (and in Los Angeles, under a year). Not to mention the other benefits, like lower noise, lower heat in the summer, and, oh yes, better performance: even a Bay Trail Atom would kick the ass of a Hotburst.
 
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Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,907
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Power aside it should run fine. Anything that is a "real" computer is going to run at around 100w or more, that's the drawback vs using a store bought router. I wish there were more options out there for small low power computers similar to the Raspberry Pi though. A nice ~500Mhz x86 based embedded pc with 2 nic ports would be perfect for a pfsense firewall.
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
76
Anything that is a "real" computer is going to run at around 100w or more

Nonsense. My file server has a LGA1155 Ivy Bridge G1620 in a H67 mini-ITX board, 2x4GB of RAM, 1x SSD, 1x 500GB 2.5" scratch drive, 4x 4TB 3.5" Seagates, and running Windows 8.1 (I use Storage Spaces), and it idles a smidge over 20W at the wall (this is when the HDDs--the biggest power draw--have idled long enough to spin down). Its maximum draw during a power stress test--that is, I started to copy data from the 500GB drive to the 4x4 array to get all 5 spinning drives active while also running an AIDA64 stress test on the CPU, RAM, and GPU--was just a bit north of 60W.

My HTPC, which also has a dual-core LGA1155 Ivy Bridge, idles around 15W and has a maximum power draw of somewhere between 20 and 30W (it's been a while, so I don't recall the exact numbers). I'm sure you can do even better with Haswell, and certainly with Bay Trail.

Yea, it's not quite as low as my store-bought router (which comes under 10W; and BTW, I personally recommend a good high-end store-bought loaded with DD-WRT instead of building your own), but at least it's not off by a whole order of magnitude like it would be if using old Hotburst-era technology.

The days of 100+W computers is history (unless you're talking about a gaming rig, but that's an entirely different beast).
 
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easp

Member
Mar 4, 2006
45
0
0
I was thinking along the same lines about a month ago and ended up bagging it because I couldn't really find components that were compatible, compact, low power and reasonably priced.

Since then though Microtik has released announced products with dual-chain 802.11ac support. I'd probably use one as an AP, and the other as an AP+Router. I could always add a PCEngines box, or something if I wanted a beefier router/firewall.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,907
12,375
126
www.anyf.ca
Nonsense. My file server has a LGA1155 Ivy Bridge G1620 in a H67 mini-ITX board, 2x4GB of RAM, 1x SSD, 1x 500GB 2.5" scratch drive, 4x 4TB 3.5" Seagates, and running Windows 8.1 (I use Storage Spaces), and it idles a smidge over 20W at the wall (this is when the HDDs--the biggest power draw--have idled long enough to spin down). Its maximum draw during a power stress test--that is, I started to copy data from the 500GB drive to the 4x4 array to get all 5 spinning drives active while also running an AIDA64 stress test on the CPU, RAM, and GPU--was just a bit north of 60W.

My HTPC, which also has a dual-core LGA1155 Ivy Bridge, idles around 15W and has a maximum power draw of somewhere between 20 and 30W (it's been a while, so I don't recall the exact numbers). I'm sure you can do even better with Haswell, and certainly with Bay Trail.

Yea, it's not quite as low as my store-bought router (which comes under 10W; and BTW, I personally recommend a good high-end store-bought loaded with DD-WRT instead of building your own), but at least it's not off by a whole order of magnitude like it would be if using old Hotburst-era technology.

The days of 100+W computers is history (unless you're talking about a gaming rig, but that's an entirely different beast).


Holy crap how did you manage that? Or, when is the last time you calibrated your multimeter? Maybe it's completely off. All computer systems I've tested run at 100w or very near. My file server actually runs at about 65w but that was before I added drives and it was tested while it was not under load. I'm talking about from the wall btw, too lazy to test every individual rail then add up.

Even my Atom based 1U Supermicro environmental server runs at around 60w or so, and that's before I connected all the sensors.

Workstation is anothrer story, 300+ watts alone but it's a core i7 with an add-on video card.
 

heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
3,999
63
91
Holy crap how did you manage that? Or, when is the last time you calibrated your multimeter? Maybe it's completely off. All computer systems I've tested run at 100w or very near. My file server actually runs at about 65w but that was before I added drives and it was tested while it was not under load. I'm talking about from the wall btw, too lazy to test every individual rail then add up.

Even my Atom based 1U Supermicro environmental server runs at around 60w or so, and that's before I connected all the sensors.

Workstation is anothrer story, 300+ watts alone but it's a core i7 with an add-on video card.
Just go read some system reviews man. Under 100w is super common these days. Last I remember you like to recycle everything and run older stuff, so you're probably not getting close to that efficiency.
 

Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Efficiency was not really my ultimate goal here. Stability and reliability was. Efficiency is great, but I'm ok with "semi-efficient" for this purpose. I agree the P4 based system is off the table as that was a pig. Atom based is probably the best way to go at the moment.
 

Jeff7181

Lifer
Aug 21, 2002
18,368
11
81
Efficiency was not really my ultimate goal here. Stability and reliability was. Efficiency is great, but I'm ok with "semi-efficient" for this purpose. I agree the P4 based system is off the table as that was a pig. Atom based is probably the best way to go at the moment.

Agreed. When I built mine, I used a Foxcon barebones SFF Atom kit and an extra Intel 1 Gbps NIC and an 80GB 5400 RPM 2.5" notebook hard drive and with UTM (back then, ASG) installed and the CD-ROM drive still connected and actually processing traffic it was running at about 22 watts.

It takes a little while to boot... maybe 3 or 4 minutes, but I don't reboot the thing often. Maybe once a month to install updates to UTM, but that's it. If that bothers you, pick up a 40-80GB SSD for under $100 and knock down the power usage a bit and the boot time a whole lot.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,907
12,375
126
www.anyf.ca
Just go read some system reviews man. Under 100w is super common these days. Last I remember you like to recycle everything and run older stuff, so you're probably not getting close to that efficiency.

Most of my stuff is actually pretty new. The old stuff actually uses less power I find, the new stuff requires massive heat sinks because of how hot it gets and heat = power usage. It's just the first time I hear of an actual PC (and not something like a Raspberry Pi) running at such low wattage. What kind of tweaks do people do to get a PC to run so low? Downclock? Even my Atom based server runs at about 75w. That is considered a low power usage platform. Sorry for hijacking this thread, I'm just really curious as to how people can get PCs to use such little power. It would greatly improve my UPS run time as well.
 

code65536

Golden Member
Mar 7, 2006
1,006
0
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Most of my stuff is actually pretty new. The old stuff actually uses less power I find, the new stuff requires massive heat sinks because of how hot it gets and heat = power usage. It's just the first time I hear of an actual PC (and not something like a Raspberry Pi) running at such low wattage. What kind of tweaks do people do to get a PC to run so low? Downclock? Even my Atom based server runs at about 75w. That is considered a low power usage platform. Sorry for hijacking this thread, I'm just really curious as to how people can get PCs to use such little power. It would greatly improve my UPS run time as well.

What are you using to measure power usage? I use a Kill-A-Watt to measure at the wall, and the figures reported are pretty much in line with what I'd expect (plug in a lamp with a 60W bulb as a quick and simple sanity check).
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,907
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www.anyf.ca
What are you using to measure power usage? I use a Kill-A-Watt to measure at the wall, and the figures reported are pretty much in line with what I'd expect (plug in a lamp with a 60W bulb as a quick and simple sanity check).

I usually use a clamp on meter, get the amperage of the hot wire, then times by the voltage which is usually 120 or near. My PDU also shows amperage and it's at 3 though there's no decimal so I suspect it's in the higher range of 3. Before I upgraded to a my big UPS setup I was running off an APC that has a watt display and it was about 300w but that's before I added two more servers. I have a watt display on my new battery backup system but when it runs off batteries the numbers are all over the place so I think it's defective, just never got around to figuring it out. It uses a shunt on the DC side.

Oh that's another thing, I'm running off 120v, are you running off 240? I think that makes things a bit more efficient, though I did not figure it would make THAT much a difference.

edit: Just tested with a 100w bulb came up to 98.4w
 
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imagoon

Diamond Member
Feb 19, 2003
5,199
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0
I usually use a clamp on meter, get the amperage of the hot wire, then times by the voltage which is usually 120 or near. My PDU also shows amperage and it's at 3 though there's no decimal so I suspect it's in the higher range of 3. Before I upgraded to a my big UPS setup I was running off an APC that has a watt display and it was about 300w but that's before I added two more servers. I have a watt display on my new battery backup system but when it runs off batteries the numbers are all over the place so I think it's defective, just never got around to figuring it out. It uses a shunt on the DC side.

Oh that's another thing, I'm running off 120v, are you running off 240? I think that makes things a bit more efficient, though I did not figure it would make THAT much a difference.

edit: Just tested with a 100w bulb came up to 98.4w

FYI your method doesn't account for the power factor in AC. Depending on your power supplies and load you could be using a lot more total power than apparent at the device. The excess is lost as heat in the wiring system.
 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
67,907
12,375
126
www.anyf.ca
FYI your method doesn't account for the power factor in AC. Depending on your power supplies and load you could be using a lot more total power than apparent at the device. The excess is lost as heat in the wiring system.

Yeah guess that could be an issue and lead to false readings on inductive loads, and I'm not sure if my meter is true RMS or not. Not sure if there's a way I can check that. Either way, I've tested with different methods before as well such as a UPS that had a power meter on it. I'd have to try to find one of those killawatts but they seem to be hard to find in Canada. The Shunt meter on my DC power plant is useless as well, I need to get a better one or use an op amp and just feed it to my arduino based monitoring system.
 

heymrdj

Diamond Member
May 28, 2007
3,999
63
91
I'm using a Kill-a-watt as well. I'm pulling 71W from the wall right now at on my WHS 2011 server (4 people are actually pulling from Subsonic so there's a little transcode there). I3-3245, 2x8GB DDR3-1600 RAM, 4x Hitachi 3TB hard drives, 1x Crucial MX100 256GB SSD. Antec Earthwatts 430 PSU
 

aigomorla

CPU, Cases&Cooling Mod PC Gaming Mod Elite Member
Super Moderator
Sep 28, 2005
20,882
3,230
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Keys, i use this board for all my routers now.
http://www.amazon.com/BLKD2500CCE-In...d2500+dual+nic

Its the perfect thing for a router.
-Dual intel Nics.
-Atom x64
-Itx form factor.

I run that with smoothwall.
It is tucked inside a Habey case, which is HORRIBLE for anyhting else besides an ATOM.
http://www.amazon.com/Mini-ITX-Alumi...rds=habey+case

I needed either that or, go with a morex case with a picupsu.

I have it on a 2.5inch 200gig 7200rpm laptop drive i had during a SSD upgrade on a laptop.
I threw in a spare 2GB SODIMM module i had left over again in a upgrade.

Smoothwall Express 3.1 x64 installed on it without a hitch.
I have hammered it with torrents, and anything else you could possibly hammer it with and it doesnt go down.
I have also used the VPN without a hitch.


I have built about 3 of them.
one for my house, and two for my cousins all without problems.

I dont have wifi on my router tho, i have it connected to a switch, which then has Ubiquiti's Unifi AP's attached to them to get my wifi.
http://www.amazon.com/Ubiquiti-UniF...688123&sr=1-2-catcorr&keywords=ubiquiti+unifi

I required placing 3 AP's though out my house to get full coverage at 5 bars, hence why i went that route.
And yeah, i get signal even half a block away.
My neighbor even came over and asked what the heck i was running for him to always see full bars even at his house next door.
 
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Keysplayr

Elite Member
Jan 16, 2003
21,209
50
91
Aigo I was eyeing that exact board. It looks PERFECT. Thanks for the info and ideas about the APs. I think that is what I'll be buying tonight then.
 
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