IVY E uses solder tim as expected, see delidded (and killed) 4960X with solder tim

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

Maybe changing WaitingForNehalem's username to WaitingForAMD isn't such a crazy idea after all?

 

[sm625]

That is what engineering samples are for...

 

[Idontcare]

Heh...given Intel's (relatively) precarious financial situation I'd say they are just focusing their efforts on the really sore spots where they need to break in. Once phones/tablets aren't so much of a damn sore spot, we enthusiasts may get some love again

Remember DEC?

I was days away from pulling the trigger on an Alpha 21164PC desktop, had the money in hand after months of drooling at computer shopper adverts while eating top ramen to save my nickels and dimes.

DEC was trying to get into the then leading edge of the new wave of personal compute devices (the PC desktop) which is very analogous to Intel's efforts to come up behind the curve (missed the Apple opportunity) and get onto the bandwagon for what is now the leading edge of the new wave of personal compute (smartphones).

Unless Intel's decision-making cabinet is made up of superior humans, folks not cut from the same cloth as DEC's decision makers, it isn't clear to me why I shouldn't expect history to repeat itself here.

(And I don't think AMD will benefit from Intel's decline, rather it will be Qualcomm and Apple, possibly Samsung too)

 

[Idontcare]

That is what engineering samples are for...

What is silly about this particular disaster delidding is that it doesn't take too much effort to make yourself a friend or two in Intel's packaging plants, or a friend or two in the engineering division of their packaging design team, who would tell you one-on-one that the chips are soldered.

I never bothered to inquire about LGA2011 because I don't use that platform (never have used the extreme platforms), but for more than a year before release I knew from someone at Intel who had firsthand info that Haswell LGA1150 would have the same non-solder TIM as IB.

I wasn't about to say as much and get anyone in trouble, plus I couldn't offer proof and I knew some people would just call me a liar (and may still ) so I just kept it to myself and hinted at it when hints were relevant.

Why mention this? Because I can't believe this guy had access to an ES, even if it was loaned from a friend of a friend of a friend, and yet he did not have access to anyone in an unofficial sense who could have told him his ES was soldered before he destroyed it.

Which leads me to conclude the following as a more probable scenario here: First, the guy probably knew his IBE was soldered, who wouldn't know that? Second, he probably fried it while overclocking, too many volts or too much current...but rather than be embarrassed about it he takes on the project of "well I'll just delid this thing, I can claim it died during delidding and save face with all my OC'ing buddies".

That way he gets uber points for being Mr. Extreme with his delidding efforts, and doesn't get caught out for being Mr. Silly for having fried his IBE before the delidding occurred.

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

I was days away from pulling the trigger on an Alpha 21164PC desktop, had the money in hand after months of drooling at computer shopper adverts while eating top ramen to save my nickels and dimes.

Probably dating ourselves here, but God, I do remember that.
DEC Alpha + WinNT + FX!32 = mid-90s geek equivalent of owning a Ferrari.

 

[jvroig]

it isn't clear to me why I shouldn't expect history to repeat itself here.

What you are proposing is impossible because it could never happen to Intel. I cannot fathom what possessed you to even propose such lunacy.

Nowhere in history can you find such a force in any industry, such a goliath, that then fails to ride the next generation of products / evolution in said industry. Nowhere. (DEC, old IBM, Kodak, etc? It happened to them because they weren't Intel. Intel is better than them + you + history, combined.)

So please, sir, stop with your Intel common sense predictions. It is not welcome in these boards. I do, however, encourage you to focus on, and harp about, Intel's strengths, such as their unmitigatable process lead and inexhaustible coffers, and may these help to correct your future outlook towards Intel. :thumbsup:

/tongue-firmly-in-cheek

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

His name is Idontcare, not Inteldontcare

 

[OILFIELDTRASH]

I'm out of the loop but reading this thread it seems the enthusiast community is pissed at intel. Why exactly?

 

[NTMBK]

I'm out of the loop but reading this thread it seems the enthusiast community is pissed at intel. Why exactly?

Intel employees hinted that Haswell would be a nice surprise for overclockers. Instead it overclocks worse than Ivy Bridge- and they have removed all remaining overclocking from the non-K SKUs. Oh, and the K-series has even more features disabled than last time- including TSX, which is meant to improve multithreaded performance.

 

[Charles Kozierok]

DEC was trying to get into the then leading edge of the new wave of personal compute devices (the PC desktop) which is very analogous to Intel's efforts to come up behind the curve (missed the Apple opportunity) and get onto the bandwagon for what is now the leading edge of the new wave of personal compute (smartphones).

Unless Intel's decision-making cabinet is made up of superior humans, folks not cut from the same cloth as DEC's decision makers, it isn't clear to me why I shouldn't expect history to repeat itself here.

I'm not sure this is a great comparison. DEC was a computer maker, not a chip maker, and more like HP (where it ended up) than Intel. It was also a company with serious problems by the time they got to even designing Alpha.

Of course Intel could eventually fail, like any company. But I don't see it happening any time soon. I think people underestimate the resources of the company, and also its importance to not just the computer industry, but the American economy.

As for the TIM/OC issue.. enthusiasts are a vocal but small segment of the market, and aren't (nor should be) a priority for a company like Intel.

 

[tweakboy]

WTF are we talking about, Im soo sorry I dont understand this solder tim crap.

What are we saying ? That Ivy E will stay cooler and OC more ?

 

[Compddd]

I think I will go with a IVY-E system

 

[ShintaiDK]

I'm out of the loop but reading this thread it seems the enthusiast community is pissed at intel. Why exactly?

Because they couldnt use the BIOS auto overclocking and set the multiplier to 50 :awe:

If people call themselves "enthutiasts", I am sure delidding is not an issue.

 

[sushiwarrior]

Because they couldnt use the BIOS auto overclocking and set the multiplier to 50 :awe:

If people call themselves "enthutiasts", I am sure delidding is not an issue.

Or because they couldn't use every single setting in the BIOS to get any more clockspeed than the 3770k.... :whiste:

 

[Atreidin]

Because they couldnt use the BIOS auto overclocking and set the multiplier to 50 :awe:

If people call themselves "enthutiasts", I am sure delidding is not an issue.

I thought the new definition of enthusiast was somebody willing to pay stupid amounts of money.

 

[crashtech]

One man's stupid is another's "none of your [damn] business."

Censored profanity isn't much better than real profanity
-ViRGE

 

[zephyrprime]

Why mention this? Because I can't believe this guy had access to an ES, even if it was loaned from a friend of a friend of a friend, and yet he did not have access to anyone in an unofficial sense who could have told him his ES was soldered before he destroyed it.

Which leads me to conclude the following as a more probable scenario here: First, the guy probably knew his IBE was soldered, who wouldn't know that? Second, he probably fried it while overclocking, too many volts or too much current...but rather than be embarrassed about it he takes on the project of "well I'll just delid this thing, I can claim it died during delidding and save face with all my OC'ing buddies".

That way he gets uber points for being Mr. Extreme with his delidding efforts, and doesn't get caught out for being Mr. Silly for having fried his IBE before the delidding occurred.

He sounds more like a "mr silly" by killing it during the delidding process and whining about it. Delidding a soldered cpu is not an easy task so I think it's completely acceptable for him to destroy the cpu in the process. The costs are well worth it to the community as a whole to destroy a single engineering sample in order to prove to everyone that ivy-e is soldered.

 

[BallaTheFeared]

Did I miss something, why is IDC so mad at Intel and why is he talking about the end days?

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

So on this CPU it's 7 watts from ~30C difference that's attributable to a combination of the H100 (vs stock cooler), the reduced voltage, and de-lidding / TIM. So I think you're looking at maybe 1-2 watts, since I think the H100 vs. stock cooler and the voltage difference are much bigger factors than de-lidding / TIM at stock clocks. And that's with IBT, one of the heaviest loads imagineable. As loads and heat decreases, any consumption difference also decreases.

Thanks for taking the time for publicizing that interesting information!

The reason I said 10 Watts (estimate), was because even a few watts or more (cpu) EXTRA consumption, will tend to be much closer to 10 watts by the time you get to the wall socket.
This is because the motherboards voltage converters (not sure of efficiency, but it could be 75%, and is likely to worsen as the motherboard ages), power supply efficiency (perhaps 82% on a good/expensive PSU, but many typical computer users, have relatively cheap power supplies, and anyway, the % efficiency usually drops off as the components in the power supply age and wear out).
Also, the cpu fan would probably blow harder, using more electricity (not a huge amount, but it add up over a 5 year period).
There are also much more complicated electrical long term losses (between solder/TIM), e.g. The higher cpu temperatures may cause faster ageing of the silicon chip, which may worsen its power consumption.

From your very interesting post, I think 5 or less watts (extra) between soldered and TIM, wall socket consumption, would have been a more accurate estimate. But still a significant amount.

 

[AdamK47]

I don't know why this is bad news. It's good news to me.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

I'm not sure this is a great comparison. DEC was a computer maker, not a chip maker, and more like HP (where it ended up) than Intel. It was also a company with serious problems by the time they got to even designing Alpha.

In the "old" computer days we had Mainframe computers, and they were sort of killed off by Mini-computers. Then LARGE-Microprocessors killed off mini-computers.
So I assume IDC means that (Intel) Microprocessors (Large, high power consuming, meant for desktops) are killed off in coming years by (Arm) SMALL-Microprocessors (small, low power consuming, meant for hand held devices).

Arm processors come in at prices around a few dollars.
Higher end haswell processors come in at prices around a few hundred dollars.

Usually when there are such big price differentials, history tells that the thing which costs 100 times more, disappears.
E.g. In the 1960's, desktop calculators were something like $8,000.
Hand held calculators in coming years were $1.
How many shops stock $8,000 "desktop" calculators now ?

I'm not sure about arm chip prices, but given complete computers (RasberryPI's) are about $25 or $35 (top model), it does not leave much $ for the processor.

A huge % of the computer buying market are probably quite happy with the performance of upcoming arm cpu's (2014++), and delighted to pay $10 (or whatever) for the cpu bit, rather than hundreds of $'s. Time will tell.

 

[crashtech]

I don't know why this is bad news. It's good news to me.

I'm with you. Come fall, I may well fall squarely into the "willing to pay stupid amounts of money" camp.

And it'll still be nobody's business.

 

[tweakboy]

Ivy E 4930k will pownz this POS 3820 chip I had to get cuz I had no choice. Didn't want to go 3930k, so I can save money for Ivy E . in sept.

 

[Idontcare]

What you are proposing is impossible because it could never happen to Intel. I cannot fathom what possessed you to even propose such lunacy.

Nowhere in history can you find such a force in any industry, such a goliath, that then fails to ride the next generation of products / evolution in said industry. Nowhere. (DEC, old IBM, Kodak, etc? It happened to them because they weren't Intel. Intel is better than them + you + history, combined.)

So please, sir, stop with your Intel common sense predictions. It is not welcome in these boards. I do, however, encourage you to focus on, and harp about, Intel's strengths, such as their unmitigatable process lead and inexhaustible coffers, and may these help to correct your future outlook towards Intel. :thumbsup:

/tongue-firmly-in-cheek

Touché good sir, touché

Kodak is the ultimate example of hubris in a modern business...not only did they invent the world's first digital camera (in the 70's!) but they refused to market it because they didn't want it to cannibalize their traditional film-print products. So Nikon and Olympus ate their lunch!

The Webster's definition of "history" ought to read "that which happened both yesterday and tomorrow".

 

[chernobog]

Intel employees hinted that Haswell would be a nice surprise for overclockers. Instead it overclocks worse than Ivy Bridge- and they have removed all remaining overclocking from the non-K SKUs. Oh, and the K-series has even more features disabled than last time- including TSX, which is meant to improve multithreaded performance.

This is sad for overclockers that prefer Intel.