IVY E uses solder tim as expected, see delidded (and killed) 4960X with solder tim

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Part of the reason Intel is VERY worried, is because in the past they could fight competition (such as AMD, Cyrix), by winning sales from other companies who desperately needed the funds to pay the sky high development cost for making future X86 compatible processors.

But much of thier (Intel) competition, has irons in numerous markets.

E.g. Samsung.
I'm going to wash my clothes in my Samsung washer/drier, take food from my Samsung fridge/freezer, let my Samsung Microwave cook it (or perhaps use the full size Samsung oven).
While I wait, I'll watch my Samsung LCD TV, or record it for later, Samsung DVR. Or use my giant Samsung projector screen.
No, lets vacuum with my Samsung cleaner, or use my Samsung printer.
Let's stay away from Samsung, and fix an Apple something (wait, what's inside , Samsung (at the moment!, later not Samsung)).
Am I typing this on my Samsung phone or tablet ? or using a PC with Samsung memory.
I don't necessarily have any of the above, but I think you get the picture (if LCD (panel), it has a high chance of being made by Samsung).

EDIT: I left out cameras, other chips, processors, flash, camcorders, and probably tons of other stuff. If Samsung think they can make significant amounts of money in the cpu market, they probably have the industrial PUNCH (resources, money, market contacts, experience, manufacturing etc) to make it happen.

In all fairness, Intel does make cpu's with a huge variety of different numbers.

 

[Khato]

Part of the reason Intel is VERY worried, is because in the past they could fight competition (such as AMD, Cyrix), by winning sales from other companies who desperately needed the funds to pay the sky high development cost for making future X86 compatible processors.

But much of thier (Intel) competition, has irons in numerous markets.

Samsung is the only real competition that qualifies in that regard, and they are indeed a company to be wary of as they could match Intel in semiconductor capex if they so chose... but they're not going to. Sure they're not going anywhere in the near term, but just because the company as a whole is not likely to belly up doesn't mean that they won't get out of unprofitable ventures. And as has been quite well demonstrated, Samsung Mobile feels no need to use Samsung Semiconductor products in their designs. Which doesn't really bode well for Samsung Semiconductor's continued presence in the SoC space, but who knows? Could be that once they are no longer acting as a foundry for Apple then Samsung Mobile will have to use more of their products assuming that they're competitive.

As for the rest of the market, well... I'd bet that all the other players are just as worried as Intel. Not because of their development costs necessarily but rather those of the foundries that they rely on. If Intel delivers on their promised performance and efficiency with Silvermont based tablet and phone products and makes appreciable gains in those markets then it's not just lost revenue to the ARM SoC designers but their foundries as well. It's the exact same mechanic as way back in the day - every sale that Intel wins takes away from the funds that the foundries desperately need just to try and keep up with Intel. (Note that Intel Foundry is poised to do the exact same thing in other markets.)

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

every sale that Intel wins takes away from the funds that the foundries desperately need just to try and keep up with Intel. (Note that Intel Foundry is poised to do the exact same thing in other markets.)

Lost sales probably don't really matter that much to the competition, because "Arm" implementations cost a tiny fraction of what it costs to do your own cpu/SoC design from scratch, and "Arm" developments, usually have considerably shorter development cycles as well.

Where the competition potentially "lost" out during the X86 "war days", was because they had to invest considerable amounts of $'s, developing the cpu chips. They then desperately needed to recoup those enormous R&D costs, and past (semi-long time ago) interest rates were highish, which did not help.

These "Arm" developments are rumoured to be (relatively) cheap, and the competition (not in all cases, e.g. AMD) are not that reliant on a particular cpu selling well, in terms of the overall turnover of the company.

Intel has been geared up in the past, to do business by selling relatively expensive (long to develop) top of market/high end cpu's, in good quantities, but which cost frighteningly huge amounts of money to develop.
Whereas, the emerging cpu market place is increasingly more about fast development/release cycles, producing "reasonable/good enough" cpu's, at potentially, very low cost, but lucratively high volumes.

That has not really been Intel's business model, and it can be very difficult and time consuming, for companies to make major market shifts like that. History books usually favour the new companies, BUT Intel are big enough, and apparently determined enough, to make the future upcoming cpu wars worth watching on a big screened Samsung TV.

 

[Xpage]

Intel employees hinted that Haswell would be a nice surprise for overclockers. Instead it overclocks worse than Ivy Bridge- and they have removed all remaining overclocking from the non-K SKUs. Oh, and the K-series has even more features disabled than last time- including TSX, which is meant to improve multithreaded performance.

the surprise was the [price increases] that intel did on the enthusiast community

This is a tech forum. Let's not be so crude
-ViRGE

 

[Vesku]

Not casting aspersions on any individuals but Intel did pull its Enthusiast Representative shortly before Haswell NDA lift. Could be coincidence but I definitely took note at the time.

 

[SiliconWars]

Did I miss something, why is IDC so mad at Intel and why is he talking about the end days?

IDC is annoyed with Intel taking the mick out of us "enthusiasts". Let's be honest now - delidding and all that is firmly in the real of the ultra-enthusiast overclocking crowd and it's not acceptable practice for an average enthusiast.

Intel is squeezing us like it's a game to them. They are pushing us to see just how far they can go. Every new generation has new segmentation, more crap on top that saves them a few cents per chip...and the intel fans just continue to support it to the death. It's not even about being an Intel fanboy any more - how can anybody be a fan of this crap?

What it is, is a case of being an AMD hater and supporting anything that "beats" AMD regardless of how much you get screwed in the process. Don't get me wrong - the opposite is true and some AMD fans would happily see the same thing happen in reverse.

I admire Intel as a tech company but they are losing the enthusiast mindshare badly. The tiny amounts of $$'s Intel saves on cheap TIM and blocking overclocking etc would not be a viable strategy in any world that knew what was going on. You're being treated like a fool. You can support intel and be a fanboy but that doesn't mean you have to blindly accept *everything* they do like a sheep. Sure I prefer AMD in most cases but you will see me ragging on them when they do stupid stuff - that automatically makes me a more reasonable source compared to a blind fanboy.

TLDR :- choose what to defend and what to attack (from the same company) and you'll be taken far more seriously than a simple troll. Defending cheap TIM on "K" series cpu's is just plain wrong. Why do it?


OT: I actually worked at Digital (DEC) in the early 90's funnily enough btw. Had to phone them up and ask why I didn't get an interview at first. :biggrin:

 

[AkumaX]

Doesn't seem legit to me.

When I delidded my dead i5-2500k I had to rip the die out through the PCB, leaving a gaping hole in said PCB...

Also as IDC has pointed out many times, it's not tim vs solder, it's the distance that is the problem.

i just threw up a little inside

 

[crashtech]

Intel's not squeezing enthusiasts like it's a game. Would that we rated that much attention. They just plain don't care.

 

[24HZ]

I'm not sure of the authenticity of the photos in the linked thread. Why would the solder look like that? Did the guy heat it up first?

 

[crashtech]

I have a heat gun that could do that easily. Indium melts at a bit over 300°F.

 

[SOFTengCOMPelec]

Not casting aspersions on any individuals but Intel did pull its Enthusiast Representative shortly before Haswell NDA lift. Could be coincidence but I definitely took note at the time.

I thought, just the same. It made me very suspicious that Haswell would be unpopular for enthusiasts (i.e. much of the membership of this forum).

TLDR :- choose what to defend and what to attack (from the same company) and you'll be taken far more seriously than a simple troll. Defending cheap TIM on "K" series cpu's is just plain wrong. Why do it?

It's like a car company, producing a new 'K' type, overTurboAble engined car, using the latest engineering techniques, and having fully UNLOCKED engine management computer capabilities for maximum top speed and acceleration. But making the engine out of plastic, which melts if you try to go above 50 MPH.
It is so noisy above 75 KPH (46.6 MPH), that it sounds like the plastic is going to melt and tear itself apart.

 

[Khato]

Lost sales probably don't really matter that much to the competition, because "Arm" implementations cost a tiny fraction of what it costs to do your own cpu/SoC design from scratch, and "Arm" developments, usually have considerably shorter development cycles as well.

Even in my quote that you selected I stated that it hurts the foundries, not the SoC designers. You're quite correct that the development costs for the SoC designers aren't all that bad, even for Qualcomm and Apple with their custom cores. (It's actually similar for Intel as well.) But it costs the foundries just as much to develop new processes and build new fabs as it does Intel. If Intel starts taking substantial marketshare in the mobile realm it's going to hit the foundries that make those chips hard... especially because if they start slipping further behind than they already are it'll only increase Intel's marketshare even further.

 

[WhoBeDaPlaya]

It's like a car company, producing a new 'K' type, overTurboAble engined car, using the latest engineering techniques, and having fully UNLOCKED engine management computer capabilities for maximum top speed and acceleration. But making the engine out of plastic, which melts if you try to go above 50 MPH.
It is so noisy above 75 KPH (46.6 MPH), that it sounds like the plastic is going to melt and tear itself apart.

Son, this ain't Slashdot. No need for a car analogy

 

[Idontcare]

Not casting aspersions on any individuals but Intel did pull its Enthusiast Representative shortly before Haswell NDA lift. Could be coincidence but I definitely took note at the time.

I can't prove it but from what I was told it had nothing to do with Haswell and everything to do with Intel's decision to pull out of the enthusiast desktop motherboard market.

 

[moonbogg]

I can't prove it but from what I was told it had nothing to do with Haswell and everything to do with Intel's decision to pull out of the enthusiast desktop motherboard market.

Oh, I get it. So if Intel can't have our enthusiast money, then neither can the enthusiast motherboard makers. Less enthusiast purchases of high end boards leaves more money in our pocket to buy a crappy intel tablet? Right or wrong?

 

[Concillian]

the surprise was the [price increases] that intel did on the enthusiast community

I wouldn't really call it surprise. It was pretty well communicated and executed to plan, wasn't it? The only surprise I remember was the TIM thing, but that was well after people had bent over and accepted what was happening.

 

[crashtech]

Oh, I get it. So if Intel can't have our enthusiast money, then neither can the enthusiast motherboard makers. Less enthusiast purchases of high end boards leaves more money in our pocket to buy a crappy intel tablet? Right or wrong?

Wrong?

I think Intel has ceded the enthusiast mobo market to other manufacturers. I don't see this having much of an effect on anything, unless Intel also stops selling enthusiast chipsets like the X79, in which case I'm sure mobo makers will just get creative with server chipsets instead.

 

[UaVaj]

good news.

 

[oceanside]

Intel's not squeezing enthusiasts like it's a game. Would that we rated that much attention. They just plain don't care.

They're simply moving the bulk of the ever declining enthusiast crowd over to their premium $$$ lineup with this strategy crippling mainstream K SKUs.

They're herding cattle

 

[24HZ]

They could and should throw us a bone.

 

[2is]

Also as IDC has pointed out many times, it's not tim vs solder, it's the distance that is the problem.

Distance is far less of a concern when using solder than TIM

 

[crashtech]

They're simply moving the bulk of the ever declining enthusiast crowd over to their premium $$$ lineup with this strategy crippling mainstream K SKUs.

They're herding cattle

Moo.

 

[2is]

They could and should throw us a bone.

They will if AMD pulls an Athlon 64 out of their seemingly empty bag of tricks.

 

[Pheesh]

you guys give companies far too much credit as evil masterminds

"Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity."

 

[TidusZ]

No worries mate, no aneurysms here, just kicking myself for waiting this long and finally getting what is essentially 5GHz SB level of performance, with bonus thermal problems.

I was thinking the same thing a year ago when I bought 3770k. If you got 5 ghz sandy bridge you probably dont need to buy a new computer ever again since Intel will never surpass it at this rate.