Ivybridge should match LLano in graphics

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Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,172
3,869
136
So....?

In what way does that invalidate what IDC has said?

The graph take account of all differences between
32nm and 22nm to enlight the smaller node advantage,
including the trigate intrinsic parastics capacitances,
otherwise such a slide would be pointless..

So it appears for me that he inflated the numbers
by accounting two times the node shrink...
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
You have surely noticed that this graph compare a 32nm planar
with a 22nm tri-gate processes....

The graph take account of all differences between
32nm and 22nm to enlight the smaller node advantage,
including the trigate intrinsic parastics capacitances,
otherwise such a slide would be pointless..

So it appears for me that he inflated the numbers
by accounting two times the node shrink...

I am 100% convinced that you did not read what I stated in my post.

Straw Man:
The straw man fallacy occurs in the following pattern of argument:
  1. Person A has position X.
  2. Person B disregards certain key points of X and instead presents the superficially similar position Y. Thus, Y is a resulting distorted version of X and can be set up in several ways, including:
    1. Presenting a misrepresentation of the opponent's position.
    2. Quoting an opponent's words out of context — i.e. choosing quotations that misrepresent the opponent's actual intentions (see contextomy and quote mining).[2]
    3. Presenting someone who defends a position poorly as the defender, then refuting that person's arguments — thus giving the appearance that every upholder of that position (and thus the position itself) has been defeated.[1]
    4. Inventing a fictitious persona with actions or beliefs which are then criticized, implying that the person represents a group of whom the speaker is critical.
    5. Oversimplifying an opponent's argument, then attacking this oversimplified version.
  3. Person B attacks position Y, concluding that X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious, because attacking a distorted version of a position fails to constitute an attack on the actual position.

Aren't you the same poster who cried shens over some rather common thread-scaling vernacular and basic computer science knowledge in that other thread? :hmm: Am I detecting a pattern here?
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,172
3,869
136
I am 100% convinced that you did not read what I stated in my post.

As i told Phynaz, all parameters of the trigate process
are accounted in the slide , including the parasistic capacitances.

Therefore, for a voltage going down from 1 to 0.78V dont expect
better than a 22% less TDP compared to the current Intel BULK
HKMG process, and that is only if the increased speed is due
to less gate/source gate/drain parasistic capacitances of the
new devices..

In case speed is better due to higher transconductance of the
Fets, that would be a different matter...
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
As i told Phynaz, all parameters of the trigate process
are accounted in the slide , including the parasistic capacitances.

Therefore, for a voltage going down from 1 to 0.78V dont expect
better than a 22% less TDP compared to the current Intel BULK
HKMG process, and that is only if the increased speed is due
to less gate/source gate/drain parasistic capacitances of the
new devices..

In case speed is better due to higher transconductance of the
Fets, that would be a different matter...

The physics don't work that way.

Honestly. You are convoluting so much here in such a needless way.

Can you share with us the analytical expression you are using to represent dynamic power-consumption? (include the static term if you like)
 

Abwx

Lifer
Apr 2, 2011
11,172
3,869
136
The physics don't work that way.

Honestly. You are convoluting so much here in such a needless way.

Can you share with us the analytical expression you are using to represent dynamic power-consumption? (include the static term if you like)

I was adressing this part of your sentences.




Throw in the typical reduction in capacitance that comes with a node shrink and you are right, they very well could be seeing a 50%-65% reduction in power consumption on a normalized basis for the 22nm node over the 32nm.

Theses curves take account of 32 to 22nm shrink , including
the capacitances reduction and any others parameters that
differentiate the two process.

You are elaborating as if it was a 32nm planar/32nm trig. graph comp,
which would indeed give a better clue about the real difference
between the two designs.

Said otherwise, the graph doesnt tell us the respective influence
of 32 to 22nm shrink and implementation of tri gate design.

There s two variable at work in this comparison graph, and
we do not know each one s correlation s with the final outcome..

As for TDP, without going in the textbooks, we can broke it as such :

1. Static resistive TDP which follow a square law although
minored by a relevant constant, the result being that it s
in the order of 20% of TDP max at stocks.


2. Dynamic capacitives induced losses.
These follow a law that can be grossly reduced to :

Pd = (VDD^2)/Zc(f)

VDD being the supply voltage and Zc(f) being the impedance
in function of frequency of the sum of all parasistics capacitances
that might be switched on/off simultaneously.

3. Dynamic losses due to crossconduction of the complementary Fets pairs, altough this later in not significant providing the CPU is not
heavily overclocked, in wich case the losses grow as a square
law of frequency as well as for Voltage.
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91
Theses curves take account of 32 to 22nm shrink , including
the capacitances reduction and any others parameters that
differentiate the two process.

< snip text that is irrelevant because of false premise >

The part in bold is where you are heading into left field and creating a scenario in your mind that simply has no basis in reality.

You are making assumptions that are incorrect in regards to the process parametrics captured and represented in the graph.

Look at the x-axis and y-axis labels on the graph. Notice that they read "Transistor gate delay" and "Operating Voltage".

That's it. Nothing more. Everything else that you are convoluting and contriving in your post (the stuff I snipped out of the quote) is not represented by the data that Intel is presenting in the graph.

Decreasing the operating voltage from 1V to 0.78V would be expected to reduce power-consumption by 50% if everything else was held constant (i.e. you reduced the voltage on a chip from the same node).

P = C * F * V^2

A reduction in voltage results in the following power reduction: (the i's and f's are subscripts representing initial and final respectively)

Pf/Pi = (Cf * Ff * Vf^2)/(Ci * Fi * Vi^2)

For the same chip on the same node at the same clockspeed, Ci = Cf and Fi = Ff:

Pf/Pi = (Cf * Ff * Vf^2)/(Cf * Ff * Vi^2) = Vf^2/Vi^2

Pf/Pi = 0.78^2/1.0^2 = 0.6084/1 = 0.6084

So we'd expect the lower-voltage chip to consume only 60% of the power that the higher-voltage chip consumes when both chips are clocked the same and produced on the same node.

(And that is if we use a square relationship which has been empirically true since 90nm. If it is a cubed relationship then we get 0.78^3/1^3 = 0.4746.)

However, decreasing the operating voltage AND shrinking the elements (a further reduction in capacitance) decreases power-consumption even further because the capacitance is also decreasing.

Pf/Pi = (Cf * Ff * Vf^2)/(Ci * Fi * Vi^2)

For a node shrink, if the same chip were implemented in the newer node then Ci > Cf (the shrunk node results in the individual components being smaller, less surface area, less capacitance for the same layout).

Pf/Pi = (Cf * Ff * Vf^2)/(Ci * Ff * Vi^2) = (Cf * Vf^2)/(Ci * Vi^2) = (Cf/Ci) * (Vf^2/Vi^2) = (Cf/Ci) * 0.6084

Since Ci > Cf (the capacitance of a Sandy Bridge chip on 32nm will be higher than the capacitance of the same chip if shrunk and implemented on 22nm) that means Cf/Ci < 1.

Multiplying 0.6084 by a number smaller than 1 is going to make the product even smaller than 0.6084.

I convervatively budgeted for a mere 15% reduction in capacitance for 22nm over 32nm, a 20-30% reduction would be more the norm but I intentionally wanted to pad the numbers upwards so as to avoid the very silliness that ensued in the thread anyways.

Ugh...I just realized we've been through this before.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=31502387&postcount=78

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=31502667&postcount=80

You know the equations, you know I know the equations, you are just trolling me at this point, we've covered all of this before.

How many more times are we going to need to bring you up to speed on the same basic equations before you stop wasting everyone's time being arrogant by calling shens and BS when you have amply demonstrated your own ignorance of these equations and have no basis for your assertions?

At any rate there is no need to take my word for it, Intel already stated as much: (emphasis added)
Alternatively, the new transistors consume less than half the power when at the same performance as 2-D planar transistors on 32-nm chips.

Notice the bit about less than half while operating at the same performance?

Doesn't that kinda square up with what I stated, computed, elucidated above?

Or would you have us believe that Intel is straight up lying about the reality of the situation as well?
 

Idontcare

Elite Member
Oct 10, 1999
21,118
59
91

Dang, 17W TDP on 32nm, definitely would be sub-8W on 22nm provided they don't change the design much in the shrink. Problem is that it takes them forever and year to get this stuff released.

Who cares that 22nm will be launched in Q1 2012, the stuff that really can use the reduced power-consumption won't come out until the end of 2013 at the rate Intel priorities these things.
 

formulav8

Diamond Member
Sep 18, 2000
7,004
522
126
And both have a long way to go before anyone serious about gaming considers using integrated graphics.

Is Llano raising the IGP bar not a good thing? Many more people play games using IGPs already anyways. Even some so-called 'serious' users. You don't have to have a super-duper discreet gpu to be a serious gamer.
 
Last edited:

beginner99

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2009
5,223
1,598
136
Well no not really, considering you can pair these up with another card for crossfire.

Useless if your CPU limited which actually does still happen and not only in Starcraft 2.
Llano CPU will probably not even match Nehalem not to mention SB or IB.

But then it's not meant for people like me how actually care and know about hardware.
 

Vette73

Lifer
Jul 5, 2000
21,503
8
0
Useless if your CPU limited which actually does still happen and not only in Starcraft 2.
Llano CPU will probably not even match Nehalem not to mention SB or IB.

But then it's not meant for people like me how actually care and know about hardware.


Llano will have an updated Quad Phenom2. It will not be a SB killer but will run games fine.
 

OCGuy

Lifer
Jul 12, 2000
27,227
36
91
Is Llano raising the IGP bar not a good thing? Many more people play games using IGPs already anyways. Even some so-called 'serious' users. You don't have to have a super-duper discreet gpu to be a serious gamer.

Of course it is good overall, but it really means nothing to me or anyone else I know for that matter.

By "serious gamer" I dont mean farmville on a 15 inch monitor.

The bolded is a strawman, as I never stated anything about a "super duper" discreet card.

There is a large gap between integrated graphics and a 6990/GTX590. But you know that already.
 

jimbo75

Senior member
Mar 29, 2011
223
0
0
By "serious gamer" I dont mean farmville on a 15 inch monitor.

Most "serious gamers" I know log on to WoW and play all day.

There is a large gap between integrated graphics and a 6990/GTX590. But you know that already.

That isn't the market Llano is aimed at. Anyway if Anand reckons SB's graphics are "good enough" I'm sure he'll be fawning over Llano's like it really is a 6990, right?
 

RobertPters77

Senior member
Feb 11, 2011
480
0
0
The only way Ivy can match Llano would be on the low end models. My guess is 32 Execution units vs 160 Radeon Cores. Ofcourse the 'EUs' would have to be clocked higher to compensate.
 

Borealis7

Platinum Member
Oct 19, 2006
2,914
205
106
what resolution was that benchmark using? this still isn't playable on any decent setting.
 

Lonbjerg

Diamond Member
Dec 6, 2009
4,419
0
0
Competitive gaming comparison

Dosn't matter...either way it's a joke.

Fighting over IGP range graphics is hillarious.

It might be that IGP's (APU is just PR) performance is increasing, but so is the perfomance of GPU's.

So onboard GFX willl aways be a joke compared a dedicated GPU.
 

zebrax2

Senior member
Nov 18, 2007
972
62
91
Dosn't matter...either way it's a joke.

Fighting over IGP range graphics is hillarious.

It might be that IGP's (APU is just PR) performance is increasing, but so is the perfomance of GPU's.

So onboard GFX willl aways be a joke compared a dedicated GPU.

It may not matter to you but majority of PC users out there doesn't use a dedicated video card also an increase in performance in IGP would probably mean an increase in performance of lower end dedicated GPUs.

An increase in GPU performance would be god send for laptop users as well. Sure there are also dedicated graphics card for laptops but those things cuts your battery life.
 
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