Jacket-pocketable, APS-C, up to 75mm eq. focal length?

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Rdmkr

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Aug 2, 2013
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Berliner said:
So you are saying more claimed AF points make an AF system necessarily better?

There are a lot of other factors going into autofocus and just because Sony claims theirs is better, you should not believe it as well. Just look at the Nikon 1s for example, which are faster. And don't get me started on AF point selection and motion tracking.

As I said, set your system according to your needs and you will have nothing to complain about.

Dude, you're the only one using the word "necessarily". All I'm implying is that there's a quite a burden of proof on people who would claim all that extra circuitry doesn't make a difference. It's an incontestable fact to start that the autofocus points cover less of the total field of view. And like I said, the thesis that this camera has less advanced autofocus is supported by my experience so far. The D5300 has more trouble focusing in low light, even if it's rarely shot-ruining and fairly easy to adapt to as a user.
 

Syborg1211

Diamond Member
Jul 29, 2000
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More AF points only helps with 3d tracking and motion where a subject is moving across the frame. I'm not going to claim any knowledge of the speed or lowlight capabilities between the A6000 and D5300, but did you do side by side comparisons or are you just basing this off of feeling?
 

Rdmkr

Senior member
Aug 2, 2013
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It's pretty obvious just from the feeling of using the two. I was actually a bit too mild on the D5300. The autofocus does mess up a shot every now and then. At night you have to make sure not to shoot in too low ISO or it will sometimes refuse to focus. You can pretty much not reliably use center focus at night. The A6000 suffered from none of these problems.

I keep going through my pictures noticing focus misplacements and thinking "how could I have messed up that one"? It happens a bit too frequently for me to not suspect the camera for it.

I really don't see why that comment needs such scrutiny when both the experience and the numbers overwhelmingly confirm what I thought about it.
 

Syborg1211

Diamond Member
Jul 29, 2000
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Your settings don't affect autofocus. ISO settings will not affect AF since the autofocus sensors have no ISO setting. The camera always uses wide open aperture to focus since that allows the most light in.

Are you using the optical viewfinder or are you using liveview on the D5300?
 

Rdmkr

Senior member
Aug 2, 2013
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I'm using the OVF. If the ISO setting doesn't affect it it's actually a worse problem because as far as I'm aware it's unfixable.

I've tested the autofocus system of the D5300 against my RX100 II and the latter often beats it by a comfortable margin. The difference is very obvious when you point at any area with so little light that you'd have to shoot at ISO 12800 to even get a 1/10 shutter speed shot. The RX100 II will still focus effortlessly under these conditions while the D5300 plainly refuses. You have to switch to manual focus to get any shot in at all.

You might think these conditions don't occur much, but yesterday on a night time stroll I did come across some rabbits in unlit grass fields that I wanted to take a shot of. I had to struggle to make it happen. On the RX100 it was easy.

I'm pretty sure the A6000 was more like the RX100 in this regard. I'm guessing it's just something mirrorless cameras have less trouble with than DSLRs.

----
Anyway, the last piece of the puzzle is in place as I'm now using DXO Optics Pro 10 Elite with Prime noise reduction to process my images. While the processing tends to take its time, I have nothing but satisfaction about the results. Judging from all the fun dials and settings I have left to play with I'm only using this program at a fraction of its potential.
 
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Rdmkr

Senior member
Aug 2, 2013
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I picked up a used 70-300mm f4.5-f5.6 Nikon lens yesterday. Heard good things about how sharp this one is at the long end and wanted to see if it's significantly better than my superzoom.

Turns out there was a bit of a shocker lying in wait: the 18-300mm zoom lens probably ISN'T a 300mm lens at all. Comparing the two, the field of view at the long end is much narrower on the 70-300 than on the 18-300mm lens. The superzoom is around 18-250mm by my estimation, assuming the markings on the 70-300 are accurate. It's really a significant difference, not a measurement error.

This is really bold. Did anyone suspect Nikon of this..? I'm amazed this isn't a scandal yet and hasn't been thrown all across the internet. It would have taken any of the review sites with access to both of these lenses no effort at all to test this and figure out what I did.

Anyway, looks like I made the right choice picking up the 70-300mm. I still think of the 18-300 as a great lens after this downgrade; it had some credit with me. And I feel like I've got a set of lenses now that complement eachother pretty well.
 

unrlmth

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Jul 31, 2012
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I picked up a used 70-300mm f4.5-f5.6 Nikon lens yesterday. Heard good things about how sharp this one is at the long end and wanted to see if it's significantly better than my superzoom.

Turns out there was a bit of a shocker lying in wait: the 18-300mm zoom lens probably ISN'T a 300mm lens at all. Comparing the two, the field of view at the long end is much narrower on the 70-300 than on the 18-300mm lens. The superzoom is around 18-250mm by my estimation, assuming the markings on the 70-300 are accurate. It's really a significant difference, not a measurement error.

This is really bold. Did anyone suspect Nikon of this..? I'm amazed this isn't a scandal yet and hasn't been thrown all across the internet. It would have taken any of the review sites with access to both of these lenses no effort at all to test this and figure out what I did.

Anyway, looks like I made the right choice picking up the 70-300mm. I still think of the 18-300 as a great lens after this downgrade; it had some credit with me. And I feel like I've got a set of lenses now that complement eachother pretty well.

Were you focusing on a close object? Many lenses exhibit what is called focus breathing:

http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/technical/focus_breathing_focal_length_changes.html

For example, a Nikon 70-200 at the closest focus distance is more like 135mm.
 

Rdmkr

Senior member
Aug 2, 2013
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It was fairly close objects indoors I did the tests on, yes. I hope focus breathing fully explains the phenomenon. I'll have to do a long range test in the weekend when I can test it in daylight.

Thanks for the suggestion.
 

CuriousMike

Diamond Member
Feb 22, 2001
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I picked up a used 70-300mm f4.5-f5.6 Nikon lens yesterday. Heard good things about how sharp this one is at the long end

You must not have compared the Tamron 70-300 to the Nikon - everything I read says the Tamron is sharper at 300mm than the Nikon.

Also, read up on "focus breathing" ( i.e., sometimes 300mm isn't 300mm )
 

Rdmkr

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Aug 2, 2013
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OK, tried the lenses at infinite focus and it looks like their fields of view match almost perfectly there. False alarm! This renews my appreciation for the 18-300mm because the results at 300mm are very close in quality so far. I'll only really be sure of that when I take some daylight shots, though.

About the 70-300mm I went, among other things, by this recommendation:
http://www.techradar.com/news/photo...ikon-telephoto-zoom-1043012/12#articleContent

It's also strong on SLRGear's tests (although the camera they use is a bit suspiciously old and "blur index" could mean anything):
http://slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/992/cat/all

I only saw DXOMark's results today, though, and they're weaker at 300mm than even the 18-300 I own (although so are the Tamron's). Not sure how I missed those.

It's mostly a lens I thought I'd test because I could pick it up cheap. I'll probably just sell it again if the difference with the 18-300 is unnoticeable at infinite focus.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
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You must not have compared the Tamron 70-300 to the Nikon - everything I read says the Tamron is sharper at 300mm than the Nikon.

Also, read up on "focus breathing" ( i.e., sometimes 300mm isn't 300mm )

I've had 2 copies of both (back when I was waffling about switching systems and for a while the Tamron was incompatible with Nikon FT-1 adapters) and frankly they are about equal on DX at the long end... there is sample variation and my eyes may not be good enough to tell the difference, so give whatever weight you want to my unscientific observations. I don't know about FX as I didn't test them on FX. The Tamron is cheaper so I'd recommend that one over the Nikon.
 

zCypher

Diamond Member
Aug 18, 2002
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First, thanks for sharing your experiences. I like hearing about this stuff as I'm interested in the RX100 and A6000 too. Let's face it though, the RX100 is one badass point and shoot. It's almost unfair to compare it to most other point and shoots. The RX100 has a decent size sensor for a point and shoot, and decent glass. I would not expect a DSLR with kit lens to give mind-blowingly better pictures under regular use. If you set it up, and actually make use of what it has to offer (more manual control, long exposures, etc), then I think the difference would become more apparent. But for low light specifically, you need a fast lens, which the kit lens is not.

Keep in mind that the crop factor applies not only to the focal length, but also to the aperture and ISO. This means that comparing ISO 100 f/3.5 on a m43, 1.5x crop and full-frame are not equal. The guy in this video does a better job of explaining it than I can: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DtDotqLx6nA&index=7&list=PLBE338967F8DB7F2A. Just wanted to make this point though as you seem to be comparing very different cameras, and I think there is more that needs to be considered before writing them off. There isn't really that much use in comparing them in a point and shoot capacity.
 
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Rdmkr

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Aug 2, 2013
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I think if I compared the A6000's images after processing them with DXO Optics Pro Prime noise reduction they'd have fared a lot better against the RX100 II. RX100 II really processes the hell out of its JPEGs. The A6000 does a fair lot of it too, but the RX100 II just takes it to a ridiculous extreme.

It makes it a good camera for quick JPEG sharing, which makes it suit its market well. It has its set of peculiarities too, though. The RX100 II's JPEGs show you a fantasy world rather than the reality before you. Oversaturated colors, aggressively reduced noise and sharpened contours, etc. Decide for yourself if it's what you're looking for.

I stand by my general conclusion, though. The A6000 is a terrific camera with mediocre lenses (in most respects except their size, of course). It's good if you're specifically looking for something small and can't bear to carry a full size DSLR. I thought I was in that category of buyer, but now that I have the Nikon there's not a hair on my head that wants to go back.
 
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blastingcap

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Sep 16, 2010
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I think if I compared the A6000's images after processing them with DXO Optics Pro Prime noise reduction they'd have fared a lot better against the RX100 II. RX100 II really processes the hell out of its JPEGs. The A6000 does a fair lot of it too, but the RX100 II just takes it to a ridiculous extreme.

It makes it a good camera for quick JPEG sharing, which makes it suit its market well. It has its set of peculiarities too, though. The RX100 II's JPEGs show you a fantasy world rather than the reality before you. Oversaturated colors, aggressively reduced noise and sharpened contours, etc. Decide for yourself if it's what you're looking for.

I stand by my general conclusion, though. The A6000 is a terrific camera with mediocre lenses (in most respects except their size, of course). It's good if you're specifically looking for something small and can't bear to carry a full size DSLR. I thought I was in that category of buyer, but now that I have the Nikon there's not a hair on my head that wants to go back.

Rdmkr is entitled to his own opinions, but I completely disagree. He seems unaware of how the default saturation levels are deliberately higher than neutral because most people like more colorful "punchiness" in their photos than reality.

You can set JPGs to whatever you want. Don't like the saturation level? The reduce it in settings. Comparing JPGs is not what matters since you can tweak the defaults. If you really truly cared so much about your photos so as to pixel peep or look at them in DXO/Adobe software then you would shoot RAW anyway. And if you didn't, who cares, it's probably going on Facebook as a tiny little photo which your friends would see on tiny low-res screens anyway. Not exactly works of art!

Furthermore his analysis of the a6000 as a "terrific camera" is right but calling its lenses "mediocre" is incomplete at best, and downright wrong for shorter focal lengths. The best Sony-made native lenses are the 50/1.8 OSS, 35/1.8 OSS, and FE70-200G. The 10-18 f/4 OSS is pretty good for an ultrawide zoom and is both stabilized and has constant aperture (better for video), though it's costly. Sigma's 19/30/60 f/2.8 series is very excellent and razor-sharp. Samyang has cheap, sharp MF lenses some of which were specifically designed for mirrorless so they are both small and sharp, such as the 12/2 which is awesome for the price. The Samyang 85/1.4 is a great budget portrait lens.

Where E-mount suffers is lack of longer telephoto. This is getting to be an issue for some would-be converts... nobody wants to buy an LAEA2 adapter and A-mount lenses at more cost and weight unless necessary. A native 70-300 f/4.x-5.6 lens would be great. If Sony won't do it, Tamron Sigma or someone else might.

I have extensive experience with DSLRs and Nikon 1, Oly, Pany, Sony mirrorless. The a6000 is the first I have considered a true replacement for APS-C DSLR users because the EVF and AF speed and tracking are as good or better than comparable DSLRs (don't tell me about how great the D4 OVF is, be reasonable, the competitor to the a6000 is stuff like the T5i or D5300 which have smaller, dimmer OVFs), and the AF point spread is amazing, so much better than what you get with even the highest end DSLRs, it's not even funny. You also get nifty tricks like face/eye/tracking that spot meters WHERE THE BOX IS.

But the key advantage that towers over everything else is this: mirrorless gets you closer to WYSIWYG before and after the shot.

Think about it: SLRs have been around since 1884. Why? Because they let you see through the lens without parallax error. But what they don't tell you via OVF is what the final exposure really looks like, or let you see zebras or focus peaking or even magnify focus for fine-tuned manual focus. For that kind of stuff you have to use Live View which is clunky and inconvenient and often much slower-AFing, not to mention harder to see in bright sunlight/glare. For that you need an EVF. As EVFs keep improving (refresh rates, resolution, colors, etc.) they come closer to WYSIWYG on both ends: before AND after you take the photo, so you can adjust quickly and take another photo in a much faster feedback loop than you'd get with an OVF. Chimp-while-you-shoot is underrated. Videographers do it. Photographers should do it too. They just didn't do it as much before because it was impractical (DSLR) or nigh-impossible (pre-digital... the 'instant' Polaroids being the closest you could get).

Speaking of video, with video it's no contest: mirrorless all the way. Mirrorless and adapt whatever lens you need. OVF for video is nearly useless compared to Live View or (better yet) EVF.

People who claim that mirrorless is for when you can't carry a DSLR are hilariously myopic.

Also see:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wM_5nROeaw
 
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Rdmkr

Senior member
Aug 2, 2013
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Blastingcap said:
Rdmkr is entitled to his own opinions, but I completely disagree. He seems unaware of how the default saturation levels are deliberately higher than neutral because most people like more colorful "punchiness" in their photos than reality.


You can set JPGs to whatever you want. Don't like the saturation level? The reduce it in settings. Comparing JPGs is not what matters since you can tweak the defaults. If you really truly cared so much about your photos so as to pixel peep or look at them in DXO/Adobe software then you would shoot RAW anyway. And if you didn't, who cares, it's probably going on Facebook as a tiny little photo which your friends would see on tiny low-res screens anyway. Not exactly works of art!
You may be misreading me because this is kinda preaching to the choir. If you remember, the heavy in-camera JPEG processing is what made me pick the RX100's JPEG's over the A6000's. Also in any thread where compact cameras come up I'm the first person to suggest the RX100; I always struggle to come up with other recommendations. I'm far from without personal appreciation of the effect. I just think people should be aware of what they're getting when they use JPEGs on this camera at their default settings. And yes, it's a very optional thing that can be turned off at the user's leisure, or reproduced on any camera with some post-processing tweaking.

Blastingcap said:
Furthermore his analysis of the a6000 as a "terrific camera" is right but calling its lenses "mediocre" is incomplete at best, and downright wrong for shorter focal lengths. The best Sony-made native lenses are the 50/1.8 OSS, 35/1.8 OSS, and FE70-200G. The 10-18 f/4 OSS is pretty good for an ultrawide zoom and is both stabilized and has constant aperture (better for video), though it's costly. Sigma's 19/30/60 f/2.8 series is very excellent and razor-sharp. Samyang has cheap, sharp MF lenses some of which were specifically designed for mirrorless so they are both small and sharp, such as the 12/2 which is awesome for the price. The Samyang 85/1.4 is a great budget portrait lens.

I don't think cherry picking lenses that buck the trend proves much of anything. The trend remains that when you pay the same amount of money for an E-mount lens, you get something smaller and lighter but of lesser image quality than, say, a Nikon Dx lens or a Sony SAL lens. It's just how that market works; give up some weight and you give up some IC in conjunction - not a free lunch, but a trade-off. But the big problem with the e-mount line is that larger options simply tend not to be made available, so the trade-off is forced on you. Maybe if you use adapters you're OK, but those add to weight and cost and probably affect the results you get negatively, mess with your autofocus, etc.

If you look at Nikon Dx lenses that punch above their weight you find things that again make the E-mount top rung look weak by comparison, for example:

Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 - I don't think there is a single e-mount zoom lens with this a wide an aperture, let alone one at such an important focal range. The aperture is also constant.

Sigma 50-150mm f/2.8 OS - the top focal length of this lens is close to the e-mount line's maximum and to get a similar aperture you'd have to pay thousands. I think this one's $800. There's a lighter and cheaper non OS version too.

Nikon 18-300mm - you have two options here, a faster and slightly sharper version and a very light one; no matter which you pick they blow both e-mount superzooms and telephoto zooms out of the water

Now, the weakness of a lot of these lenses is that they are large, which has been my point all along.

It's interesting that you mention short focal lenghts as a counterexample because the wide end is exactly where I feel like the e-mount series' options are lacking. Going by your examples, you seem to mean something closer to medium angle. The 35mm f/1.8 lens is already +/- 50mm in full frame terms, which is well past the 35mm that is typically considered a "normal" angle.

The closest thing to a sharp, fast wide angle lens with auto-focus is the Carl Zeiss 24mm f/1.8. It's expensive, it's not *very* wide, it's fast but not especially so and it's sharpness at fully opened aperture is sub-optimal. That's the best you can get with e-mount when it comes to this crucial focal length range. Of course, it's big asset is that it's small. But the larger/heavier option is simply not there. An equivalent Nikon Dx Sigma lens is 30mm, f/1.4, only $400 and probably sharper.

So instead you're stuck with the cheap Sigma f/2.8 option, or the non-auto-focus 24mm Samyang, which is heavy and un-sharp at maximum aperture. For my purposes, it didn't do.

I probably express myself stronger than I should in these posts so please accept my mea culpa on that. I write these posts in a hurry and its hard to get nuance across when you write in quick concluding sentences. I really don't think we see this very differently when it comes down to it. I liked a lot about the A6000 and the main reason I'm a happy switcher from it is because the D5300 ticks so many boxes on my wish list. Had it not been an option, I'd probably still be using the Sony.
 

blastingcap

Diamond Member
Sep 16, 2010
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OK, but the way you wrote it wasn't about the expense, you said the a6000 was good but saddled with mediocre lenses, not overpriced lenses. I said dismissing E-mount lenses as mediocre is incomplete at best and wrong for shorter focal lengths.

However, if you're amending your statement to take expense into account, I would agree for telephotos and disagree for wideangle to normal/short tele.

- The 50/1.8 OSS is $300, or about $70 more than the Nikon 50/1.8G. On the other hand, the Nikon doesn't have stabilization, the Sony regularly goes on sale for $250 (or even $200 when bought with camera), and the Sony might be a little sharper in the center wide open. The Sony also has better bokeh--this isn't even a contest. If you factor everything together I think the Sony might actually be better value for the money despite higher sticker price.

- The 35/1.8 OSS is reasonably sharp even wide open, and stabilized, but the Nikon 35/1.8G DX is basically about as good but with worse bokeh and no image stabilization. Still, the ~$200-250 price (depending on sales) difference may be hard to swallow for many people. I think the Nikon is better value but it's not as huge of a margin when you factor everything in.

- The Sigma 19/30/60 are great, sharp, good bokeh on the 60 and can be found cheap or on sale often. They are great if you don't mind f/2.8.

- The Sony 10-18 is a constant f/4 and reasonably sharp; its Nikon counterpart is 10-24, slower, not constant aperture. The 10-18 can also work on full frame with a little tweaking, at most focal lengths. I'd say the Sony is at least equally good bang for the buck as the Nikon.

- The ~$350-400 Samyang 12/2 is a minor miracle for astrophotography and not bad for everything else. It's manual focus but cheap and light for its focal length and aperture. Nikon doesn't have anything like it. The closest you get is a big, heavy Tokina 11-16/2.8.

- Similarly the 85/1.4 Samyang is MF but for portraits to get sharp eyes you might want to MF anyway. Nikon doesn't have anything priced like it. And the F-mount version of the 85/1.4 is not very usable with DSLR OVF because of inability to "zoom in" to get fine-tuned focus. Nikon only wins if you need fast autofocus. If you are ok with MF then Sony's got the better value. And if you are ok with slower AF, a Canon 85/1.8 + adapter costs about as much as the Nikon and while it's not as sharp wide open, it gets quite good stopped down. Plus much of the time for portraits you don't want to get TOO sharp anyway.

As I implied earlier, Sony suffers on the long end; their stuff is either not great or overpriced or both, ranging from the 55-210 to the hilariously badly priced 16-70Z to the underwhelming 18-200. The 18-105 is actually not too bad for a constant f/4 lens, and reasonably sharp, but with some distortion that negates the f/4 for some video work, and it doesn't go to 16mm like the Nikon 16-85 so it's perhaps the "least bad" longer-tele option for E-mount.

As for shorter focal lengths, read above for examples of great values like the Samyang 12/2. Yes the 20/2.8 and Zeiss 24/1.8 are both overpriced for what you get, but the Sigma 19/2.8 is a LOT cheaper and still very good; you seem to have forgotten about it when you picked on the Zeiss 24/1.8. There's a FE 28/2 coming out early next year that may be priced more reasonably while delivering good performance, as an alternative to the Zeiss.

But Nikon has a bunch of overpriced lenses as well, like the 17-55 and 70-300 VR. They aren't bad, just overpriced relative to alternatives like the Sigma 17-50 OS and Tamron 70-300 VC. The Nikon 55-200 isn't any better than the Sony E 55-210. And have you seen the prices Nikon is charging for lenses like the 20/1.8G?

Furthermore, as you touched on, you can adapt most lenses to E-mount. Sometimes with CDAF, like Canon EF/EF-S lenses. You can also use cheap MF-only legacy glass with easy focus peaking and zooming in on EVF, something that you can't do on DSLR. Can you use legacy Zeiss on Nikon F? No. How about cheap but good Canon FDn? No. Can you use speed booster adapter on Nikon F? No.

So as a recap: Sony's E mount is far from complete. As it stands they could use better telephoto lens options. A 90/2 macro (supposedly coming next year but at a sky high price, and ditto with the rumored 85/1.8. Longer or larger-aperture (f/2.8) telephoto zooms are nonexistent right now.

But E-mount actually looks pretty good for anything up to 50mm or so. The 28/2 is coming as an alternative to the Zeiss 24/1.8--and let's not pretend like Nikon has such great value with its 20/1.8G either. (If the FE 28/2 sucks or is overpriced I will agree that a hole remains.) Samyang owns the ultrawide/fisheye segment, especially the 12/2, and the Sony ultrawide zoom isn't any worse of a deal than the Nikon ultrawide zoom (see above). The cheap Sigma E-mount f/2.8s are good value if you can tolerate f/2.8. The 50/1.8 OSS is better bang for the buck than the Nikon 50/1.8G in my book (see above). And the 35/1.8 OSS might be worse value than the Nikon, but at least you get good bokeh and stabilization.

The Sigma f/1.8 zoom you mentioned, by the way... look at its price and bokeh and size and weight. Sharpness isn't everything. I would rather shoot with primes.

And as for 24 vs 30mm I think that's just a little too much difference in focal length. That's like comparing 36mm vs 45mm, so a Sigma 30 for Nikon isn't exactly in the same classification as the Zeiss 24.

The other lenses you touted are longer, and as I said, I was not talking about long teles. Sony still needs to work on those for E/FE.

For the reasons above, I am reasonably happy with my Sony E system for anything up to 50mm. I am waiting for a good 55-300 or 70-300 f/4-5.6 from Sigma or Sony, but luckily I don't shoot those focal lengths as often, and usually for portraits in which case I have an 85/1.8 I can adapt anyway (I don't mind MF for portraits). For those with deep pockets, I would not recommend EITHER Sony E or Nikon F for APS-C-or-smaller telephoto. I'd recommend the Panasonic FZ1000 (budget option.. smaller sensor but nice bright lens and good zoom range) or Canon 7DII and Canon telephotos, instead. (Or 70D if you just need reach but not faster/better AF and bigger buffer.) Nikon just doesn't care about DX; their USA marketing guy literally told DPR in an interview that he wants to tell Nikon shooters to buy an FX camera. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USVwCubpq9I&feature=youtu.be&t=14m44s I mean wtf. How about no, because I don't need an FX camera and the cost, size, and weight that result, and as sensors keep improving, I'll get better image quality at any given ISO over time ANYWAY? I mean, today's APS-C cameras can give you everything that FX cameras gave you 7 years ago except thinner DOF, which I don't really care about and is overrated. Look at the Samsung NX1 as an example of what a high end APS-C camera can do if companies didn't artificially cripple their smaller sensor offerings in an effort to get them to "upgrade" to larger systems that they may or may not want.

Nikon so very clearly doesn't give a damn about its DX users. I didn't leave Nikon. Nikon left me and the other DX shooters it doesn't give a damn about except as potential feeders into FX.

But my shooting needs may not be yours, and I understand and respect that... I did say that I thought well of Sony E-mount's wider lens options, not their longer lens options! And worse come to worst, I can simply buy a FZ1000 instead of a longer E-mount lens, so I wouldn't even necessarily miss out much on the longer Nikon DSLR lens options.

I don't think cherry picking lenses that buck the trend proves much of anything. The trend remains that when you pay the same amount of money for an E-mount lens, you get something smaller and lighter but of lesser image quality than, say, a Nikon Dx lens or a Sony SAL lens. It's just how that market works; give up some weight and you give up some IC in conjunction - not a free lunch, but a trade-off. But the big problem with the e-mount line is that larger options simply tend not to be made available, so the trade-off is forced on you. Maybe if you use adapters you're OK, but those add to weight and cost and probably affect the results you get negatively, mess with your autofocus, etc.

If you look at Nikon Dx lenses that punch above their weight you find things that again make the E-mount top rung look weak by comparison, for example:

Sigma 18-35mm f/1.8 - I don't think there is a single e-mount zoom lens with this a wide an aperture, let alone one at such an important focal range. The aperture is also constant.

Sigma 50-150mm f/2.8 OS - the top focal length of this lens is close to the e-mount line's maximum and to get a similar aperture you'd have to pay thousands. I think this one's $800. There's a lighter and cheaper non OS version too.

Nikon 18-300mm - you have two options here, a faster and slightly sharper version and a very light one; no matter which you pick they blow both e-mount superzooms and telephoto zooms out of the water

Now, the weakness of a lot of these lenses is that they are large, which has been my point all along.

It's interesting that you mention short focal lenghts as a counterexample because the wide end is exactly where I feel like the e-mount series' options are lacking. Going by your examples, you seem to mean something closer to medium angle. The 35mm f/1.8 lens is already +/- 50mm in full frame terms, which is well past the 35mm that is typically considered a "normal" angle.

The closest thing to a sharp, fast wide angle lens with auto-focus is the Carl Zeiss 24mm f/1.8. It's expensive, it's not *very* wide, it's fast but not especially so and it's sharpness at fully opened aperture is sub-optimal. That's the best you can get with e-mount when it comes to this crucial focal length range. Of course, it's big asset is that it's small. But the larger/heavier option is simply not there. An equivalent Nikon Dx Sigma lens is 30mm, f/1.4, only $400 and probably sharper.

So instead you're stuck with the cheap Sigma f/2.8 option, or the non-auto-focus 24mm Samyang, which is heavy and un-sharp at maximum aperture. For my purposes, it didn't do.

I probably express myself stronger than I should in these posts so please accept my mea culpa on that. I write these posts in a hurry and its hard to get nuance across when you write in quick concluding sentences. I really don't think we see this very differently when it comes down to it. I liked a lot about the A6000 and the main reason I'm a happy switcher from it is because the D5300 ticks so many boxes on my wish list. Had it not been an option, I'd probably still be using the Sony.
 
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