Jackson is at it again

[classy]

Ho Hum same old scum. Everytime I hear an arguement waged against affirmative action it is always in this light. A black person got a job because he was black, not because he was qualified. Get this black people are just as smart as whites. We are not inferior. You among many others want to paint this picture that blacks are not as good as whites but get jobs because of color. That is not true. As matter of fact, 10 years ago here in the NJ State Police, since you bring up the police, they went back and found literally dozens of minorities, mainly blacks and hispanics had been denied employment even though their test scores were superior to the whites who got hired. So much for the blacks need help bit. You were mad at the black lady cop because she was black. You know how I can tell. Because you talk about her "size" as being apart of her color. Well I don't know where you live but I have seen a lot of women and men, both black and white, who are small but some damn fine police officers. This notion that every black cop is there because of color is well a prejudice attitude. I could say the same thing about all the "whitey" cops. But to be honest I am not angry at most of you guys. Its your up bringing. Its clear by this thread that some of the moms and pops didn't teach love for thy neighbor. Unless of course they look like you. And this thing about waiting till people are 20 to do something is nonsense. Maybe if people like Cheney would not attack programs like Head Start maybe we can make some progress.

 

[Bryan]

<< Get this black people are just as smart as whites. We are not inferior. >>



Agreed. So there's no need for affirmative action at all, right? If you are not inferior, then you don't need to be hired based on race. Take pride in who you are, and let your skills speak for themselves. If you're upset that there are only a few black CEO's out there, start a company. If you really want to make a difference, quit using skin color as a basis of statistic, and be the better person.

 

[BoberFett]

It's sad isn't it guys? classy is such a bigot that he can't even recognize it.

 

[Bryan]

My question is why he attacked me (and my family), and called me a racist, out of all the people who had opinions that were simillar? I hope he didn't get the idea that I was weak, and easily preyed upon, because I'd hate to have to drown him in a pissing contest.

 

[BoberFett]

Bryan

He calls me a racist all the time. Anyone who disagrees with him is a racist. If I had more will power I'd just ignore him, but I find myself drawn to such &quot;pissing contests.&quot;

 

[StageLeft]

classy

I think in some ways with what you said we both agree on something

Everytime I hear an arguement waged against affirmative action it is always in this light. A black person got a job because he was black, not because he was qualified.

MANY people DO think that way. Sometimes they are right, sometimes they are wrong as you indicated with the minority rejection with superior test scores in the police force you mentioned. The problem is that as long as there is affirmative action you will always have this. Some people will realize that it is not the only reason minorities get jobs, and many get them based on merits, but some people will think that because of affirmative action a minority may be employed _only_ because of that. To the minorities who got in based on their own merits this is not fair, but affirmative action allows people to use it as a scape-goat.

If you have a large percentage of the population - some racist and some not - who think that many minorities are employed because of affirmative action that doesn't help anything. And believe me, if a person is rejected for a job because of their race it really pisses them off - this works both ways...and this is why affirmative action was brought in in part, but I don't think its right.

I was in the gym the other day and a big fire-fighter was telling his friend he couldn't get into the police force &quot;I'm a white male, I don't stand a chance&quot;. In many case affirmative action has gone too far. When you have people who believe they cannot get in because of this then they don't even bother applying. I have a black friend who got into the RCMP - and he is a good guy, I know he could have gotten in based upon his own merits - but if he was white his skin would have acted against him. Instead of helping (in this case he didn't need it), it would have worked against him and perhaps he would have been rejected.

People aren't getting jobs because they are minorities, this still happens. Now people aren't getting jobs because they are majorities, something new. Is it really helping?

 

[classy]

Well obviously I am the only black person who is taking on u guys and gals. But thats okay. There is two sides to every story. Nearly everyone who has replied to this thread has looked at the story from the white side. But there is a black point of view as well. But there seems to be a lack of respect for a black persons point of view in this thread. I am a the bigot, but I am the one who is inter-racially married with kids. I have very close relationships with white people. And despite all of that I am still black and I present the other point of view. But that makes me a bigot. I have no hangups concerning color at all. But that doesn't mean they don't exist people. Most people here seem to think that racism is in all black people's minds. Well I hate to break the news to you but it isn't. And let me remind it wasn't us who started all this either. You all talk about equality, but even from the very beginning we were never considered equals. Look at your views on affirmative action. Most of you in your stupid minds believe all these cops are there because they are black. Well I present that is not true, but rather they were better and more qualified for the job. Are people who have very serious &quot;pigmently challenged&quot; views like Bryan, Andrew, and Bober Fett to be trusted with the task of hiring people based on merit and not on color? Yea, right. If Bober is there you might as well hang up the sign no &quot;awesome people allowed&quot;. If because I present the other side makes me a racist then so be it. But I know not one of you are capable of walking in my shoes.

 

[StageLeft]

Look at your views on affirmative action. Most of you in your stupid minds believe all these cops are there because they are black. Well I present that is not true, but rather they were better and more qualified for the job.

That is exactly why I don't agree with it! Because I want to know 100% for SURE that whoever is hired is hired not because of color but their qualifications. I'm not saying all cops who are minorities are hired because of that - as I mentioned my friend who got into the RCMP would have gotten in regardless and nobody ever doubted that - but some people are hired in because of this, and their skin color is enough to edge out the competition. If what I just said was not true, well then there would be no point to affirmative action would there? The entire point is that when competition is tight affirmative action will lend extra credit to the minority, and it shouldn't.

 

[Bryan]

<< There is two sides to every story. Nearly everyone who has replied to this thread has looked at the story from the white side. But there is a black point of view as well. >>



It is because you look at things this way that you are a bigot. In the big scheme of things, black, white, green... it doens't matter. There is no &quot;black view&quot; or &quot;white view&quot; in Heaven and Hell. You spew forth this self righteous bullshit, and then cry racist when someone questions your prejudiced views. You and your views do nothing for the cause of racial harmony, and you undermine everything Dr. King worked so hard and gave his life to create. Period, end of story. I am through listening to you calling me a racist in the midst of your &quot;because I'm black&quot; bitching. Good day sir.

 

[classy]

And another thing. If hear one more white person say I couldn't get in the police force because I am white, I think I am gonna puke. Man it must be here in NJ 40-50 white cops to every 1 black cop. Man there whole freaking police departments in towns with not one black cop or any other minority for that matter. So please stop. And Bober you know how feel about you. And Bryan anytime you stoop as low to bring up Def Comedy Jam (which has quite a few white comedians also) and BET, there is no doubt you are really reaching for any reason to voice your dislike of blacks. Does everyone here honestly believe racism doesn't exist? You people can't honestly believe that, can you?

 

[Corn]

You are correct Bober, Classy's hatred of whities is more apparent with each post.

My point about people I've known that claim they aren't racists because &quot;I've got a black friend&quot; or whatever doesn't preclude their over apparent racism when making casual racist remarks--maybe not intentional, but racist just the same, seems to have sailed right over Classy's head. I've known people that you would call &quot;casual racists&quot; (not quite of the hate group caliber, but definately proponents of stereotypical jokes and such) but still would drool over the likes of many a hot &quot;ethinc&quot; babe.

You know nothing about me Classy, but I'll give you a clue or two. Since the day I started dating my wife I have been a witness to and subjected by racism on a daily basis because my wife is Jewish and I am not. It's difficult not to beat the pulp out of everyone that assumes by my German last name that it's OK to say things like &quot;dirty jew&quot; in my or my wife's presence.....(Broken teeth and hand were the last straw with my wife--I'm not allowed deck anyone anymore or I sleep on the couch--evidently my stunning good looks are more important to her than a lesson in forced politeness). I've experienced it on both sides--the obvious anti-jewish racism noted above and the rejection of some of her family and friends. It'll be very sad that our children won't have a large &quot;extended&quot; family because they will basically be considered illegitimate because of who I am--but it's a lesson they'll learn about why it's important to not think and act in that way towards others.

Racism bothers me like nothing else--hell I'd gladly live amongst Demoncrats if it meant racism were to disappear altogether. :Q

Your hate filled and ignorant rhetoric only perpetuates racism--but I think I already said that now didn't I? You need to grow up and set an example. My wife has helped me see that fighting fire with fire only leads to bigger flames--the better man is patient and leads by example--it's time to be the &quot;better man&quot; and actually be a part of the solution, not part of the problem.

 

[StageLeft]

classy

I'm only saying its hard to be a white cop in some places. Affirmative action is relatively new, most cops are somewhat old so it has little time to affec them. Then in many areas the black population is very small, so you have to take that into account. The fact of the matter is that the prevailing opinion of the general person in Canada (as an example) feels that being a white male is a major impediment to being accepted into the RCMP. Whether this is in fact the case, or is just a general view does not matter at all. People feel this way because of affirmative action.

 

[classy]

Dr King? Hmmm Bryan before you run away. In your opinion has Dr. King's dream become a reality? Heaven or Hell? I know you don't want to go there. Because I guarantee the bible will convict you as well. Forget hell, you better seek God in heaven. Now you can have good day? Speaking of heaven, I wonder if you too would have stood against Moses when he married the black woman?

 

[Bryan]

<< And Bryan anytime you stoop as low to bring up Def Comedy Jam (which has quite a few white comedians also) and BET, there is no doubt you are really reaching for any reason to voice your dislike of blacks. >>



Oh no, classy. I just loved turning on Def Comedy Jam and watching a bunch of comedians making a living by trashing white people for an hour straight, thereby destroying the threads of harmony others of their race gave their heart and soud to, and just thought how interesting it would be if there was a white version. I'll bet you'd never &quot;stoop&quot; so low as to criticize it's effects on racial equality.

The WB network also has plenty of black oriented programming, as has Fox. I rather enjoyed many of these shows. However, show me an entire network that advertises that it is for the entertainment of white people, and I'll show you Jesse Jackson marching a protest in front of it.

 

[Bryan]

<< Dr King? Hmmm Bryan before you run away. In your opinion has Dr. King's dream become a reality? >>



Of course not. Your predjudiced views were his nightmare, not his dream. He dreamed of equality, not perceived inequalities that mandated compensatory accomodations.

Oh, and I'll leave it up to God to judge me, m-kaaaay?

 

[classy]

Corn I can respect that. But this post originally started with an attack on a certain person, Jesse Jackson. I came to his defense. You say my words are full of hatred, but did you read the words I am responding to? Despite your girl friend you will never be able to really feel what she feels. How would she feel if she read this post and seen how you have come to the side of those that I am arguing with. My words may sound like hate because I am dealing with hate. Everybody wants to make it sound like its okay for all of you to say anything you want and its okay but its not. Many of my people have earned want they have and should be respected as such. And I personally don't care if most here in this thread don't like me, but I'll be damned if I am going to sit here and read the deep seeded racially spun crap in this thread and not say something to defend to black people. And again I'll say the same thing I said before, if want to talk about the racist black figures you better talk about the racist white ones also.

 

[Thorn]

<< But to be honest I am not angry at most of you guys. Its your up bringing. Its clear by this thread that some of the moms and pops didn't teach love for thy neighbor. >>




<< Bryan same as yesterday, my opinion of you hasn't changed. You are a racist period. I don't even want to respond to you. But I will.
^uck you and your family. >>


Yeah, feel the love.

Everyone is a little biggoted towards someone, it's just a fact. Honestly, I'm not very trusting of Mexicans because I was robbed by one and beaten with a ball bat by another. But I deal with it and try hard not to let it cloud my judgement. I work at it, and probably always will. It's a fault that I try to fix.

Affirmative action doesn't work, it never has and it never will. The best person should always be chosen for a job regardless of race, creed, color, gender, disability, or ethnic background. That's what true equality means. Anything else is segregationism, and has no place in a truly diverse society. It's not about leveling the playing field so that everyone is artificially equal, it's about working hard to succeed in what you put your mind to. I was looked over for a promotion once in favor of a black man, but damn he was smart and qualified. I never for a moment thought it had to do with quotas... he was simply the better person for the job. I congratulated him and he took me to lunch (he felt sorry for me because he knew I really wanted the promotion). He's still a good friend of mine and I received a Christmas card from him just a few days ago.

None of this country's racial wounds will truly heal until we stop teaching seperatism. The fact is we're not African Americans, Anglo Americans, Hispanic Americans, or any other &quot;sub&quot; group. We're all Americans. We're one people, in one nation under God (if you choose to be religious). I refuse to look at anyone and see anything but a human being, and I refuse to be held responsible for history. I've never enslaved anyone, the chains that bind most are of their own creation. Lay them down and take a place as an American, as just a person. Work for the betterment of all mankind. You have a lot to be proud of and others like King, Parks, Lincoln, Kennedy, and too many others to name saw a world without boundries or limitations. That was their example for all of us.

 

[NesuD]

<< When I hear of those black people like the one who got shot 41 times by white officers I'll look the other way. Because its not racism. When a James Byrd happens again I'll pass it off as just a typical murder. >>

Classy

You act as if these black people were the only ones that were victims of members of a different race. If you think that equally horrific acts have never been committed by Blacks against whites then you are living in a fantasy world. Unfortunately these crimes don't get splashed all over the news every 15 minutes because there is very little political advantage to be made by publicizing it. This doesn't make the acts of those policeman or the Texas murderers any less deplorable but it does demonstrate that these types of things happen to people of all ethnicities all the time. Now before you give me the hate crimes gig let me state a fact which many people seem reluctant to bring up. You could make a pretty equal case that just as many black on white crimes would be classified as hate crimes as white on black. When phrases like &quot;white mother fvcker&quot; seem to get uttered before assaults and muggings then it certainly seems like race is a motivator in the crime. These things are not an attempt to portray blacks as a bunch of racist criminals all I want to demonstrate is that the races aren't really that different in the way they veiw each other AND in the way they treat each other.

Most of the negative votes that Cheney made which you imply demonstrates his racism were based on economics. The idea that throwing money at it will fix it is not an idea I subscribe to. You seem to think that fiscal resonsibility is tantamount to racism if the money is denied to civil rights programs or policy that basically would have no practical effect so would therefore be a useless and expensive gesture.





<< &quot;He is a disgrace to the memory of Dr. King whom I don't beleive would approve at all of the way he has conducted himself over the years. Dr. King was a man who recognized true racism for what it was. Jesse Jackson on the other hand seems intent on manufacturing the myth of racism in everything he touches regardless of whether it exists or not.&quot; >>

NesuD


<< Hmmm thats odd I was sure that it was Dr King that taught Jesse how march and speak up against racism. Oh I am sorry, you didn't know Jesse Jackson was an assistant of Dr. King. Oops I guessed you slipped. >>

Classy

No Asshole I am well aware that he was an assistant of Dr. King you damn Moron Unlike you I lived throught the civil rights movement of Dr. King and I wept with everyone else when he was murdered. I also witnessed the transformation of Jesse Jackson from Civil rights advocate and One of Dr. Kings chief assistants to Jesse Jackson publicity hog trying to assume the mantle of Dr. King. Well i hate to tell you this He is no Dr. King never has been and never will be. What he is is self serving there is no incident to ridiculous that he can't fabricate a racist undertone for. The expelled from school for starting a Riot not a fight at the highschool football were black and he rushed to defend them because you claim he was against the no tolerance policy not because they were black. That is B.S. and you know it. if that were the case then he would be running around protesting the expulsions of half the white kids in america as well for fighting. Black kids are not the only victims of no tolerance policies in americas schools.

And from now on ass hole when you pull a quote out of one of my posts be sure to give me credit for it.

 

[classy]

And the last thing. Bryan obviously you have never sat and looked at Def Jam. Most of the jokes are concerning us and not white people. And you know there are some very funny things on both sides. If we can't come togther and laugh at and with each other we'll never come together. My white friends are always cracking black jokes and they are funny. And I do the same also. But I know they love and care about me and if things got serious they are there for me, so thats what's important. Laughter is the best medicine. You can take a very serious issue and look at the brighter side and find some sense of laughter that will help you get through it. I have seen it happen a million times. But if you really have no intention on ever looking past a persons color and trying to make a new friend it doesn't matter. And that's where I think you and Bober Fett are at. You really have no intentions on having a real realtionship with a person of color. Thats why things that are really insignificant like BET, black history month, and like really bother you. Here in Philly, every stinking year they have the Irish tradition the Mummers. Now do I understand, nope. But hey there is nothing wrong with them being proud of what they are. I know a couple of guys who are in the Mummers and they are great guys. Not white great guys, but just great guys. Their color is umimportant. Just like I don't have a problem with the all Puerto Rican channel either, you know why because their color is umimportant to me. When you get to that level all your hang ups will go away. If you ever get to that level.

 

[Corn]

Classy, I don't think you actually read what I wrote very closely. She's my wife, not girlfriend, and yes I do feel for what she has to go through because she is jewish because I have to go through the same thing with some people because I am not.

I have come to no-one's defense, only pointed out YOUR comments cannot live up to YOUR judgement.

As far a Jesse is concerned, I have always respected him and his message and the good things he has done in this country and others to bring people together. Unfortunately I also believe his strings are being pulled by his party, and as such is under orders to say what is necessary to de-legitimatize Bush's presidency. Although I don't agree with what he is attempting to do, I do understand why he is doing it. The problem is, it's only going to further divide people which is counter to his life's work and as such, I'm afraid, cheapens every thing he has fought for.

 

[Michael]

Attacking classy as a racist is a cop out. The bare statistics of minority representation clearly show that there is prejudice and bias in the selection process. I guess no one read my earlier post. It is clear beyond any shadow of a doubt that there long has been a problem. To live with that problem facing you every day would make you angry as well.

Does anyone wonder why Rev. Jackson has such a large following amongst blacks? If what he says is so obviously wrong (as many here seem to feel), then why is there such a well of anger for him to tap into?

I can agree that Affirmative Action is not a great solution and it is obvious that it attacks the heart of society in that it breeds distrust and cynicism. Since the problem it is supposed to address has not gone away, what is the solution?

I can name a few - Welfare Reform (which came during a strong economy which helped) has started to break the cycle of dependence. School vouchers can really help poorer people go to better schools. Better policing can get the criminals off the street so that the decent people (even in the worst areas, the vast majority of people living there are decent to the core) can live and prosper.

I am getting pretty tired of white people crying &quot;reverse discrimination&quot; every time they don't get a job. If it really is that bad, then why are the numbers still skewed so badly in favour of whites over blacks?

I have been working as a professional for almost 15 years. I have seen zero difference in ability to think and carry out a good professional job based on race. Every single minority that I have ever hired with equal qualifications has done well and been promoted. I know that there is natural bias in the hiring process (recruiters tend to send same sex/race to interviews as it increases the chance of a &quot;sale&quot; happening), but with just a little work I have been able to eliminate it.

Brooks - Take it from a Canadian who moved to the US. The problems here are much larger. Canada has much smaller &quot;minorities&quot; (the % of non-whites is much smaller than the US) and poverty is not as widespread. Canada is not perfect, but it is much better.

Classy - I recommended that you join the Republican party in another thread. The Democrats take the black vote for granted and many in their party whip up the anger in the black community to keep them from thinking. There are two benefits to joining the Republicans:

1) They are very interested in increasing their representation in the black community. Since it is small right now, your voice would carry more weight. Using both your justified anger and logic, you could easily sway them to more effective action than you could as an outsider.

2) Big business is much more heavily Republican than Democrat. The contacts you would gain as a member would give you much more access to the &quot;old boys&quot; network. That will lead to better jobs and more influence. Again, work from inside the system to make changes. I need more help, I'm doing all I can.

Michael

 

[classy]

NesuD I don't disagree with anything you just said. But this whole post went from attacking a black man, to affirmative action, to attacking the whole race. I been apart of this board for over a year, but just here in the last month or so I started posting here in the off topics. For me it was a mistake. I admit I don't take it well when I see people putting down black people, especially those like Jesse Jackson who has devoted his entire life to fight for me to treated as an equal. I leave here sad because whether I am right or wrong I believe certain people here are seriously prejudice. And many of you feel the same about me. So be it. We all have some prejudices granted, but the stuff that has been said here concerning blacks is uncalled for. And I may have made a mistake to fight fire with fire. But I'll live with it. Most of the stuff said here are lies. If not all of it lies. And maybe I come off as a racist as well. But I'll just have look at my own actions and words and judged them as such. I will never stand by and allow people to say the things that were said here and not respond. Maybe I will change my choice of words to better reflect what I am trying to say next time. But I will never allow anyone to call all us people looking for handouts and paint the picture we're not good enough to get jobs on our own. Affirmative Action was put there not to give us an unfair edge, but instead to help protect us from the acts of discrination that have plagued us as a people from the very beginning. If we were treated as equals from the begining and not thought of as being less than whites it would have never come into being. If more white people spoke out against when businesses do discriminate then maybe we wouldn't have a need for affirmative action. But it is clear from this post that the people here would do no such thing, but instead attack the people who really are the victims. No black person takes pleasure in Affirmative Action or any of these programs, but unfortunately they are needed. The deck continues to be stacked against us. America has never had equality and from the looks of it never will. I too am sadden by the fact many of my black people now are just as racist as those they in the beginning fought. But when I walk into a post like this it can easily be understood why. Man I hate making enemies and I know I made a few here. But I really don't believe many of you would accept me anyway. But its true in life that not everyone is gonna like you.

 

[StageLeft]

classy I agree with why affirmative action was put in place. Its intentions are good. Its execution sucks badly and as was said all it does is breed cynicism. In a society that is trying to promote equality affirmative action is legal inequality. Thats the bottom line.

 

[Balt]

Back to a much earlier post...

<<Cheney Opposed Raising Minority Contract Set Asides for Defense Department to 10 Percent. In 1986, Cheney opposed increasing from 5 percent to 10 percent the proportion of Pentagon contracts that must go to minority-controlled firms.>>

Quotas were struck down by the Supreme Court as being unconstitutional because they are reverse discrimination. See Regents of the University of California v Bakke, and Aarand Construction v Pena.

 

[Corn]

Huzzah Michael!!!!!

I heartily agree with most of your points. In attacking Classy's apparent racism (justified or not, it is what it is) what really irritated me was not the racism itself, only the hypocracy of his message and his complete failure to live up to his own words.

Saying &quot;you're either with me or your a nazi&quot; is BS, and should be attacked for the double standard it espouses.

Everyone has prejudices, it's human nature and cannot be avoided. I like Samuel Adams, someone else like Budweiser--go figure.