Japan almost done shutting down entire nuclear power industry

[PokerGuy]

This is absolutely stunning to me. Japan is about as high-tech a society as you'll find, and is now shutting down all nuke plants, and talking about phasing them out permanently. That's absolutely mind boggling.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/46676913/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/

I understand why residents would be scared or wary of nuclear power, but to take a step backwards toward fossil fuels from existing nuclear power plants? That's crazy.

 

[CPA]

a once in a lifetime disaster makes people stupid.

 

[Ketchup]

Given time, they will get over it. Especially if that time includes some hot summer days without AC.

 

[Lemon law]

Two things to say.

1. They sold Japan on the concept the nuclear reactors are safe safe safe and foolproof. Didn't quite turn out that way. And a small nation like Japan can't afford to lose a 100 square miles of land and have it radioactive for 50,000 years.

2. Hopefully thorium type nuclear reactors may prove to be far far far safer, because U235 based rectors are very dangerous. Especially those in Japan that were outmoded before they were built.

 

[zsdersw]

a once in a lifetime disaster makes people stupid.

... as if they weren't already.

 

[feralkid]

Given time, they will get over it. Especially if that time includes some hot summer days without AC.

Especially a sunless, windless hot summer day when they also just happened to run out of coal and gas; that will teach them.

 

[Londo_Jowo]

Looks like a good time to invest in companies that engineer/design combined cycle power plants and LNG facilities as well as sell equipment used in these plants.

 

[PokerGuy]

Two things to say.

1. They sold Japan on the concept the nuclear reactors are safe safe safe and foolproof. Didn't quite turn out that way. And a small nation like Japan can't afford to lose a 100 square miles of land and have it radioactive for 50,000 years.

Nothing is 100% safe or foolproof. With nuclear, you have the potential risk of something going very bad like it did last year. With fossil fuels, you have the ongoing dependence on hostile nations for energy, as well as constant negative impact to the environment and people's health. Basically, pick your poison.

 

[hiromizu]

America basically nuked them after the war lol

 

[KB]

Once their electric rates increase 200% I think they may reconsider. I think it would be far cheaper to demand nuke plans add diesel generators on stilts as an extra backup, instead of just shutting them all down.

 

[Rainsford]

a once in a lifetime disaster makes people stupid.

I think it was Bill Gates talking about nuclear power who said that the problem with nuclear power is that people are more afraid of big events causing issues than things that cause problems over the long term.

There's a solid argument to be made that nuclear power has FAR less negative an impact than fossil fuels which pollute and are becoming more expensive. The problem with nuclear power is that the negatives are mainly concentrated in single events rather than spread out over years. And people remember single events as worse than constant negative impact, even though the more spread out effects are MUCH worse when added together. Kind of like how people remember all the people who die in terrorist attacks or natural disasters but don't give a second thought to how many die in car accidents...even though the latter number is MUCH larger.

 

[BoberFett]

I think it was Bill Gates talking about nuclear power who said that the problem with nuclear power is that people are more afraid of big events causing issues than things that cause problems over the long term.

There's a solid argument to be made that nuclear power has FAR less negative an impact than fossil fuels which pollute and are becoming more expensive. The problem with nuclear power is that the negatives are mainly concentrated in single events rather than spread out over years. And people remember single events as worse than constant negative impact, even though the more spread out effects are MUCH worse when added together. Kind of like how people remember all the people who die in terrorist attacks or natural disasters but don't give a second thought to how many die in car accidents...even though the latter number is MUCH larger.

I think there's a term that has been given to that effect, but I can't remember it offhand, gonna have to look for it.

 

[Thump553]

a once in a lifetime disaster makes people stupid.

Makes people like you make stupid comments is what you really meant.

Japan has the best earthquake/tsunami warning system in the world. Japan was highly aware of their earthquake danger and highly aware of the dangers of radiation. They thought that through superior engineering, high design standards and strict adherance to what the "experts" thought as more than adequate safety protocols was sufficient. Real life proved them dramatically wrong and they now have to deal with the aftermath of three nuclear meltdowns.

I don't blame them at all for making that tough decision. I do question our decision (by default) to proceed ahead as is here with far lower design standards and implementation.

Yes it can and will someday happen here, with a far greater degree of probability.

 

[alphatarget1]

Makes people like you make stupid comments is what you really meant.

Japan has the best earthquake/tsunami warning system in the world. Japan was highly aware of their earthquake danger and highly aware of the dangers of radiation. They thought that through superior engineering, high design standards and strict adherance to what the "experts" thought as more than adequate safety protocols was sufficient. Real life proved them dramatically wrong and they now have to deal with the aftermath of three nuclear meltdowns.

I don't blame them at all for making that tough decision. I do question our decision (by default) to proceed ahead as is here with far lower design standards and implementation.

Yes it can and will someday happen here, with a far greater degree of probability.

I think one would also have to consider history. Japan was the only country in history to get bombed with nuclear weapons (so far). I would think that the population grew up being weary of nuclear just from being in school and learning about Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The experts screwed up first by not anticipating that a meltdown could occur in a very plausible situation (tsunami after earthquake). And TEPCO did not inform the public of what was going on. I do not blame the locals for refusing to restart nuclear plants. What happened to the US nuclear industry after TMI? Now multiply that by 100 times. If something like the Fukushima happened in the US, the US nuclear industry would probably get shut down just because people would flip out.

 

[spacejamz]

How are they going to power all of those giant electronic billboards in Tokyo??? Do other Japanese cities have those as well??

 

[Dari]

Hard to feel bad for the Japanese nuclear industry and government when they were in cahoots. That led to corrupt oversight, amongst many other bad things. The people are right to be distrustful.

 

[Dari]

I think one would also have to consider history. Japan was the only country in history to get bombed with nuclear weapons (so far). I would think that the population grew up being weary of nuclear just from being in school and learning about Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

The experts screwed up first by not anticipating that a meltdown could occur in a very plausible situation (tsunami after earthquake). And TEPCO did not inform the public of what was going on. I do not blame the locals for refusing to restart nuclear plants. What happened to the US nuclear industry after TMI? Now multiply that by 100 times. If something like the Fukushima happened in the US, the US nuclear industry would probably get shut down just because people would flip out.

a once in a lifetime disaster makes people stupid.

Wrong and wrong. The government and nuclear power industry had a very cozy relationship. Furthermore, the people that LIVE in Japan have been getting and expecting more earthquakes. What they want is for their industry and government to provide much better assurances than what they got before. And no lies this time. That is why this opposition is being driven by local governments and not the national one in Tokyo.

 

[bfdd]

Stupid move. Poor engineering and design doesn't mean the shit doesn't work. It means you weren't prepared enough.

 

[imagoon]

From the article they are shutting them down for maintenance and it looks like the communities are not allowing them to start back up. They have laws that the reactors must be shutdown and maintained every 13 months. Looks a lot like localized fear than a government operation.

 

[woolfe9999]

With few alternatives, the prime minister, Yoshihiko Noda, has called for restarting the plants as soon as possible, saying he supports a gradual phase-out of nuclear power over several decades. Yet, fearing public opposition, he has said he will not restart the reactors without the approval of local community leaders.

Looks like the plan is to re-open the reactors in the near to middle terms, but "phase-out over decades." The trouble with re-opening them all now is clearly a political one. They just can't do it this soon. Would be really bad if they don't re-open them at all. The last thing they and the world need is for oil demand to spike.

 

[cybrsage]

The reactors were operated for about a decade past their extected end of life point. Even then they were very safe. However, you cannot plan for having your nuclear plant submerged by a huge tidal wave. Some things you just cannot design to protect against.

 

[JTsyo]

The reactors were operated for about a decade past their extected end of life point. Even then they were very safe. However, you cannot plan for having your nuclear plant submerged by a huge tidal wave. Some things you just cannot design to protect against.

Yes, you can. Especially when you build it near the ocean. In fact teh power plant was protected against giant waves just not ones as big as the one that hit. The real problem laid in the plant design itself. All plants should be designed to be able to shutdown with no external resources.

 

[cybrsage]

Yes, you can. Especially when you build it near the ocean. In fact teh power plant was protected against giant waves just not ones as big as the one that hit. The real problem laid in the plant design itself. All plants should be designed to be able to shutdown with no external resources.

You can easily shut it down without external resources, you just cannot keep it cool after you do. You need power to run the pumps. This power has to come from somewhere, and it was supposed to come from diesel generators. However, these generators were under water.

How high should the protection be, 1,000 feet? You know, just incase an asteroid hits the Pacific Ocean? That is what I mean, you build it to a most likely scenario, then a little safer. You cannot protect against everything. Simply not possible.

 

[Ausm]

... as if they weren't already.

You sound prejudiced which is amazing for someone like you.

 

[Dari]

You sound prejudiced which is amazing for someone like you.

He's angry.