JCH13 - Turbo Miata Rehab Thread

[AustinInDallas]

I miss my 1990 miata so bad! First car.

Im finally in a position where I could have a little side project, but a legit turbo job costs so much!

 

[JCH13]

I miss my 1990 miata so bad! First car.

Im finally in a position where I could have a little side project, but a legit turbo job costs so much!

So do a half-ass turbo job like I am doing/did!

Well, it's not really half-assed, just done with less-expensive components and a lower power goal. Heck, if you aim for 150whp you can run 6-7psi and no intercooler if you want to.

 

[JCH13]

Finished aligning the Miata last night. I had forgotten how a good alignment brings these cars to life! It's unreal.

F
-1.9deg camber
0 toe
~3deg caster (going to work on improving this number)

R
-1.8deg camber
0 toe

Basically a compromise between FM suggested alignment and some aggressive alignments. If I can dial in some more caster I'm going to remove some camber from the front.

 

[Jejunum]

So do a half-ass turbo job like I am doing/did!

Well, it's not really half-assed, just done with less-expensive components and a lower power goal. Heck, if you aim for 150whp you can run 6-7psi and no intercooler if you want to.

I just want a bit more power...but I want a complete (and easy to install) kit, (2001 NB) suggestions?

 

[manimal]

Finished aligning the Miata last night. I had forgotten how a good alignment brings these cars to life! It's unreal.

F
-1.9deg camber
0 toe
~3deg caster (going to work on improving this number)

R
-1.8deg camber
0 toe

Basically a compromise between FM suggested alignment and some aggressive alignments. If I can dial in some more caster I'm going to remove some camber from the front.

thats awesome man. Two or three alignments and it pays for itself! Have you hooned with the setup as is? How does it feel compared to the standard?

 

[phucheneh]

I just want a bit more power...but I want a complete (and easy to install) kit, (2001 NB) suggestions?

You can really do better without a kit, I'd think. I dunno the specifics on Miatas, but for most cars it's simply: Get turbo manifold/header, get a compatible turbo that fits your goals, get an intercooler. Test fit all of it, cobble together some decent IC piping*, and either make or buy a downpipe. Badabingbadaboom.

...now you just gotta get it tuned right. That would be the more Miata-specific part. And the part that is usually more complicated than just fitting parts together.

*generic 'kit' of various pieces of aluminum pipe with different bends, something to cut with, and a home-made flanger like JCH posted earlier is all you really need for this.

Also, your oil feed/return, but all you have to do there is a little reading on where the best places are to route them. I dunno how JCH did his return; I'm guessing mod the oil pan, unless there is some unused provision for an oil return if they ever put a factory turbo on the motor you're using (Mazdaspeeds had been around in '01, so I guess it's possible?).

 

[JCH13]

I just want a bit more power...but I want a complete (and easy to install) kit, (2001 NB) suggestions?

That's easy: http://flyinmiata.com/index.php?deptid=4523&parentid=0&stocknumber=22-14301 BLK GAUGE

Here is an overview of the kits available for your Miata: http://flyinmiata.com/turbos/turbosNB.php

That'll bump you from 105whp to 170whp. If you want to upgrade in the future you can get up to 250whp. I have never heard anything but praise for FM turbo kits, and I have had nothing but good experiences with Flyin' Miata personally.

thats awesome man. Two or three alignments and it pays for itself! Have you hooned with the setup as is? How does it feel compared to the standard?

I did a little bit of hooning yesterday. I like 0 toe as compared to my previous toe-out front/toe-in rear setup. The car wasn't as darty but still had very good turn-in, though not quite as good has having a little toe-out in front. I wouldn't suggest any toe-out for something street-driven.

Camber is harder to gauge on the street, but having basically the same camber f/r seems to make it a little more neutral. My previous setup had less camber in the rear and I think that made it a little tail-happy.

Having a little less caster (used to have 4.75deg) makes the de-powered steering a bit easier to handle, which is nice.

You can really do better without a kit, I'd think. I dunno the specifics on Miatas, but for most cars it's simply: Get turbo manifold/header, get a compatible turbo that fits your goals, get an intercooler. Test fit all of it, cobble together some decent IC piping*, and either make or buy a downpipe. Badabingbadaboom.

...now you just gotta get it tuned right. That would be the more Miata-specific part. And the part that is usually more complicated than just fitting parts together.

*generic 'kit' of various pieces of aluminum pipe with different bends, something to cut with, and a home-made flanger like JCH posted earlier is all you really need for this.

Also, your oil feed/return, but all you have to do there is a little reading on where the best places are to route them. I dunno how JCH did his return; I'm guessing mod the oil pan, unless there is some unused provision for an oil return if they ever put a factory turbo on the motor you're using (Mazdaspeeds had been around in '01, so I guess it's possible?).

If FM didn't exist then piecing together a kit would be a good option. It still is a decent option to some degree. However, because FM's turbo kits are 100% complete, use high-quality components, and have great technical support, there is really no beating them. Hell, just piecing together a setup you'd be buying a bunch of FM parts anyway.

MazdaSpeed Miatas were only 2004-2005 model years, though I don't know what, if any, of the turbo features your engine has retained from the BP6T until 2001. Oil return was done by simply drilling and tapping the oil pan. Very simple procedure.

 

[FuzzyDunlop]

^^agreed. The FM kit would be tried and proven, also any kinks that are in it would have been found and a solution readily available. Whereas with a self made kit there could be a bunch of gremlins that need to be worked out that are specific to your build.

 

[manimal]

What I like about FM is the quality to dollar ratio is unbeatable. Sure you could piece together a ebay kit and do 7lbs always wondering if the thing will go boom taking the engine with it.

Sadly with so many knock offs you could shave about 300 bucks over a FM setup but why stop supporting the people who really make it happen for all of us?

 

[Jejunum]

Don't think I'll be able to install the kit myself, do any shops (hopefully in the Midwest) install fm kits?

 

[JCH13]

Don't think I'll be able to install the kit myself, do any shops (hopefully in the Midwest) install fm kits?

I am sure any reasonable independent shop would be willing and able to install the kit. I am pretty sure Manimal's shop would install it if you're anywhere near IN.

 

[JCH13]

Oil cooler arrives today. Thoughts on where I should mount it?

-In front of radiator
-Behind radiator
-In front of steering rack
-Inside of fender with some custom ducting
-Somewhere else (?)

I'm leaning towards sandwiching it in front of the radiator so that my cooling fans will pull air through it when the car is resting.

 

[thedarkwolf]

something like that would be good

 

[ballmode]

All this miata talk has me searching again.

AP2 S2000's are rare this summer

 

[JCH13]

Got everything mounted and plumbed last night, fired up the car and pissed oil everywhere after a few seconds. Not sure what was leaking and called it a night. I'm going to take a look tonight and figure it out, pics to come later.

something like that would be good

Srsly, that wouldn't fatigue anything at all. Perfect! D:

All this miata talk has me searching again.

AP2 S2000's are rare this summer

Do it.

 

[JCH13]

After reviewing the fittings and adapters I used in addition to the kit I think I can conclude that I blew out the o-ring in the sandwich plate. That is bad, very bad. Not sure if I can make it work...

 

[JCH13]

Finally got everything sorted out with the oil cooler. Found an STP filter that fit every requirement, and is a nice big filter upgrade to boot!

The kit:

I also added two 3/8 FIP/MIP elbows to turn the barbed fittings 90deg.

Sandwich plate clamped in place on the block with barbed elbows:

A little context on the location:

Oil cooler core attached to the radiator. It's very nearly as wide as the radiator itself! Should cool quite nicely. I'm not too worried about taking cooling efficiency away from the radiator, the oil will still be removing heat quite well.

This is the monster filter installed. I had to slide it under the front bumper just to get it into position!

Between the cooler, and getting a legit oil pressure sender installed, the oiling system is pretty well sorted out! Another big step done.

 

[JCH13]

I've been eyeing a COP conversion for quite some time now... and the allure of running a big spark gap for extra power, not shredding ignition wires, and generally better drivability has finally won me over.

There are kits out there that are PNP for $300, but I'm sticking with the cheaper DIY option.

How-to write-up: http://www.miataturbo.net/useful-saved-posts-8/upgrading-coil-plugs-all-years-cop-writeup-12704/

I got these coils: http://www.ebay.com/itm/17089367785...iewitem=&sspagename=ADME:L:OC:US:3160&vxp=mtr

And these connectors. I got the crimp-your-own flavor because I have the crimping tool at work: https://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/a...&search_in_description=1&keywords=90980-11885

So for less than $100 I have all of the specialty hardware. DIY COP ignition here we go!

 

[phucheneh]

How does that work? He just lists 'coils' under the parts needed...how do you not need an aftermarket ignition module to manage timing?

Is it that the spark is already being fully managed by the ECM, and a distributor was just providing a spark 'window' that is now always there? If so, though, I still don't see how you go from one coil driver to four (or two, if it just fires on exhaust stroke, as well).

What's the theory behind COP making a hotter spark, anyhow? Just allows the primary winding to be energized for longer?

 

[JCH13]

How does that work? He just lists 'coils' under the parts needed...how do you not need an aftermarket ignition module to manage timing?

Is it that the spark is already being fully managed by the ECM, and a distributor was just providing a spark 'window' that is now always there? If so, though, I still don't see how you go from one coil driver to four (or two, if it just fires on exhaust stroke, as well).

What's the theory behind COP making a hotter spark, anyhow? Just allows the primary winding to be energized for longer?

It works with magic!

Seriously though, the Miata is setup with twin ignition coils using and EDIS in a wasted-spark setup. Using COP units you just need to wire them for wasted spark (1 and 4 coupled, 2 and 3 coupled) and the OEM driver can handle it. There are four physical coils in a COP setup, but two are always firing together.

I happen to have an ECM, and that helps a lot because I can adjust the coil dwell (charging) time to my satisfaction, but apparently it can work with the stock ECU (especially if the stock ECU is overclocked).

COP setups don't lose any energy going through an ignition wire resulting in a bigger spark. With one driver directing all of it's current though a single spark plug, instead of two, the spark you get is more 'even,' if you will, between cylinders. If I setup sequential ignition the coils could run cooler and more efficiently... but that is a whole different ball of wax.

 

[phucheneh]

Oh, okay, I didn't those were DIS waste spark systems.

I would dispute that plug wires make any real-world difference, though. Secondary voltages are high and secondary ciruit resistance invariable is, as well. There's more resistance in the plug gap than there is the wire. I think manufacturers went to COP for efficiency, not power. I dunno if multiple coils are even really needed...if so, why do old V8's built for racing using still only use one coil? Or two; seems like I've seen two. But that's still the equivalent of a single coil on a 4 cylinder, assuming each coil is only firing twice per engine revolution. I dunno anything about aftermarket ignitions, so I have no idea how advanced they've gotten.

But you're sure the coil drivers will be okay? You're going to be halving the impedance of the two primary circuits, assuming the new coils are using similar windings. Doubling the current through those transistors is pretty substantial.

The fact that I've seen waste spark setups with .060" plug gaps work just fine makes me say you're not doing anything notably beneficial for the secondary side. IMO this is the same as buying into the muscle car guys who say 'an MSD box makes better spark which means more power,' to which I would reply '...how about you dyno it?' Bet there would be little difference between an electronic ignition with MSD magic and a set of $5 points.

edit: I'd also wonder if there's the possibility of the field collapse in one coil affecting the other coil that's connected to it.

 

[JCH13]

It's a modification that has been done over and over by many people with no issues. PnP COP kits are even available, but for $300.

People report low-end torque gains (should help spool-up in my case) and reduced high-rpm ingnition break-up and/or spark blow-out. Both of these will help power. Everyone who has done the COP conversion reports a smoother-driving Miata, and usually better fuel economy too.

You can disagree all you want with people who have actually done it and evaluated the results. But that would be really silly.

 

[JCH13]

Coils and connectors arrived over the weekend. Coils are indeed OEM Toyota/Denso. I can't believe I got 4 for $62, rock auto listed them at $80ish each...

 

[JCH13]

I am about ready to tear out my hair on this COP conversion.

Got everything mounted and wired, tested the car, it started and ran after fixing one small wiring mistake. No big deal.

Button up the harness, connectors, etc. No tachometer. After a long while I trace it to a short between the ground and tach signal wire. Very annoying, but no big deal. Test the car again, works great for a moment, then no tach. Again. The short had re-developed ( :$ ) and I gave it a more permanent fix.

As I am wrapping up the harness connector, poof, two coils stop working (1&4, wired for wasted spark). Unwrap the connector, poof, they start working again. Wrap it up, poof, not working again. So, I've got an intermittent short in the connector. Again.

I say screw it, cut out the connector, and hardwire everything. Still only two coils running, 1&4 are still dead. So I swap coils, coils are good. Check wires with ohm meter, they're still good. Crack open the ECU, all ignition transistors still good.

What the heck?

The only think I can think of now is to check that the coils are indeed still sparking (I have extra plugs) and to pull the plugs on 1 & 4 to see if they're fouled so bad they won't even pretend to run.

Thoughts?

 

[exdeath]

No chance at capacitive/inductive cross coupling anywhere? You have a scope?

Trigger? Check the whole system end to end all the way from coil to crank/cam sensor. Is the primary side being grounded eg receiving ignition commands?

Can't miss it if you scope everything.