Jeb Bush on Climate Change. WTF???

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rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
What is the fix for climate change? Anyone?

if we believed these people, we'd all be under water by now.

Remember that Al Gore told us the polar ice caps would be melted by now.

Being skeptical on global climate warming change is the obvious choice considering the false information, information manipulation, hyperbole and fear mongering put on by the proponents. Lets all not forget that the people who are the loudest in favor of climate change are the ones making money off the theory. Lets also not forget how those in favor of it refuse to have an honest conversation about it and instead resort to personal attacks when their views are challenged.

This thread is giving me more reason to vote for Bush. The fact that democrats are grasping at straws with faux outrage makes me happy. I can only hope there is much more teeth gnashing in the future.


Bush in 16!
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,655
5,346
136
I didn't think it was possible that Jeb could be dumber than his brother. I may have to rethink that.



Reading the whole article doesn't make him look any better. The stupid gene runs deep and dominant in this family.

Seems like a reasonable statement to me. The bottom line is we can't stop the production of man made co2. There is no rhetoric that will solve the problem, there is no tax that will do the job either. The only certain answer is very large scale population reduction.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
642
126
if we believed these people, we'd all be under water by now.

Remember that Al Gore told us the polar ice caps would be melted by now.

Being skeptical on global climate warming change is the obvious choice considering the false information, information manipulation, hyperbole and fear mongering put on by the proponents. Lets all not forget that the people who are the loudest in favor of climate change are the ones making money off the theory. Lets also not forget how those in favor of it refuse to have an honest conversation about it and instead resort to personal attacks when their views are challenged.

This thread is giving me more reason to vote for Bush. The fact that democrats are grasping at straws with faux outrage makes me happy. I can only hope there is much more teeth gnashing in the future.


Bush in 16!
There is story after story debunking it all. Falsified data, fabricated data, manipulated data. It goes on and on. I'm older than you. When I was younger we were told we were all going to freeze to death unless we did something. The believers are nothing but members of a cult. The cult of 'increased taxation will fix it'. They'd all be Hare Krishna's except for the fact that gaming is less fun at the airport.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,590
7,651
136
Seems like a reasonable statement to me. The bottom line is we can't stop the production of man made co2. There is no rhetoric that will solve the problem, there is no tax that will do the job either. The only certain answer is very large scale population reduction.

How about we simply wean ourselves off of it, slowly, over time?
1: Natural Gas.
2: Nuclear Fission.
3: Solar.
4: Nuclear Fusion.

It's a simple step by step process. We're already deploying natural gas, but we need to step up nuclear in a big way. Immediately.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
There is story after story debunking it all. Falsified data, fabricated data, manipulated data. It goes on and on. I'm older than you. When I was younger we were told we were all going to freeze to death unless we did something. The believers are nothing but members of a cult. The cult of 'increased taxation will fix it'. They'd all be Hare Krishna's except for the fact that gaming is less fun at the airport.

When I was in middle school the "hole in the ozone layer" thing was in full effect. We had to watch movies in science class of celebrities telling us how global warming was going to ruin the planet by the time we graduated.

After hearing about it for so long and after the world not spontaneously combusting, I'm just over it. If someone has a plan on how to fix whatever the problem is, post it. Otherwise I'm sick of these people telling the world that the rich people are killing the planet while the ones saying that are flying around in private jets and riding in stretch limos.
 

Bowfinger

Lifer
Nov 17, 2002
15,776
392
126
[ ... ] Lets all not forget that the people who are the loudest in favor of climate change are the ones making money off the theory. ...
Thank God we have all these altruistic oil companies who generously open their treasuries to the relative handful of fringe shills "experts" who generate propaganda stories disputing the overwhelming majority. The oil companies and their "experts" -- some of whom have actually taken classes -- are all in bed together solely out of the goodness of their hearts, right? Clearly they have no ulterior motives, no massive profits to protect or other base motives.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
Thank God we have all these altruistic oil companies who generously open their treasuries to the relative handful of fringe shills "experts" who generate propaganda stories disputing the overwhelming majority. The oil companies and their "experts" -- some of whom have actually taken classes -- are all in bed together solely out of the goodness of their hearts, right? Clearly they have no ulterior motives, no massive profits to protect or other base motives.

If someone has a plan on how to fix whatever the problem is, post it
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,890
642
126
If someone has a plan on how to fix whatever the problem is, post it
Seconded. I've been asking for this for a long time. Methods, costs, how to measure the results, timeline, Plan B and Plan C. Make a business case for it and watch it happen. The people of this nation have proven themselves many times over to be totally capable of understand and acting when the facts are presented in a manner that makes logical sense.

Bring it on or quit all the hysterical whining.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
Seconded. I've been asking for this for a long time. Methods, costs, how to measure the results, timeline, Plan B and Plan C. Make a business case for it and watch it happen. The people of this nation have proven themselves many times over to be totally capable of understand and acting when the facts are presented in a manner that makes logical sense.

Bring it on or quit all the hysterical whining.

There was a plan to dump a bunch of iron into the ocean. Pretty simple and neat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iron_fertilization

The problem, is that we dont fully understand the system we are messing with. Its like we have a car, and have no idea how it works other than gas is go, and break is stop. We have never driven the car at top speed, so we have no idea what the difference between an engine that is about to break, vs an engine that is running at full tilt. So when we see a big change, we dont know if the system aka the engine can take it. We do see some changes that have negative effects, and look at the long term what might happen if those effects continue.

Many models have not taken into effects things we did not know, so they were well off. Turns out particles in the atmosphere from China's coal plants were deflecting more sun than we realized. Also, turns out the ocean can absorb much more carbon than we realized. It may also turn out that the earth can absorb more carbon than we have yet to realize.

We do know that we are reaching carbon levels that are greater when the world had gone through a huge change where all the ice caps melted. We can show with math how much more energy carbon holds in when it makes it into the atmosphere. A big reason why we have been off, is because not as much has been making it into the atmosphere as we once thought. What will happen if the buffer of absorption runs out? We simply dont know, but its pretty much assumed it wont be good.
 

feralkid

Lifer
Jan 28, 2002
16,577
4,659
136
There is story after story debunking it all. Falsified data, fabricated data, manipulated data. It goes on and on. I'm older than you. When I was younger we were told we were all going to freeze to death unless we did something. The believers are nothing but members of a cult. The cult of 'increased taxation will fix it'. They'd all be Hare Krishna's except for the fact that gaming is less fun at the airport.

You have a very active imagination.
 

makken

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2004
1,476
0
71
Seconded. I've been asking for this for a long time. Methods, costs, how to measure the results, timeline, Plan B and Plan C. Make a business case for it and watch it happen. The people of this nation have proven themselves many times over to be totally capable of understand and acting when the facts are presented in a manner that makes logical sense.

Bring it on or quit all the hysterical whining.

The solution is to, of course, cut GHG emissions. There are a few proposals out there that I've heard, but the one I like best is a 3 prong approach: electrification, clean power generation, low carbon fuels.

The idea is to reduce the number of sources as much as possible (electrification), then to focus our efforts on those few sources (power plants) to get them as clean as possible. For those sources where it doesn't make sense to electrify, move their fuel to lower carbon sources.

Most of this can be achieved with current, or near future technologies. EVs are taking off, and rumors are that sub-$40k 200 mile range vehicles will hit the market next year. The DC fast charging network is getting built out. Renewables are approaching cost parity with fossil fuels in power generation, and I'm seeing a lot of research into grid storage recently. Biodiesel is already being made and used.

Some quick napkin math shows that it is possible, with current solar technology, get 100% of our electric power from solar and wind.

Not going to say that this is going to be ez pc, and the government definitely has a role in promoting, supporting, and in some cases subsidizing this to speed it along, but I think it can be done.
 

realibrad

Lifer
Oct 18, 2013
12,337
898
126
The solution is to, of course, cut GHG emissions. There are a few proposals out there that I've heard, but the one I like best is a 3 prong approach: electrification, clean power generation, low carbon fuels.

The idea is to reduce the number of sources as much as possible (electrification), then to focus our efforts on those few sources (power plants) to get them as clean as possible. For those sources where it doesn't make sense to electrify, move their fuel to lower carbon sources.

Most of this can be achieved with current, or near future technologies. EVs are taking off, and rumors are that sub-$40k 200 mile range vehicles will hit the market next year. The DC fast charging network is getting built out. Renewables are approaching cost parity with fossil fuels in power generation, and I'm seeing a lot of research into grid storage recently. Biodiesel is already being made and used.

Some quick napkin math shows that it is possible, with current solar technology, get 100% of our electric power from solar and wind.

Not going to say that this is going to be ez pc, and the government definitely has a role in promoting, supporting, and in some cases subsidizing this to speed it along, but I think it can be done.

If carbon can be sequestered, then we could have a mixed approach. There is no reason it has to only be reduction of GHG.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,848
13,784
146
Seconded. I've been asking for this for a long time. Methods, costs, how to measure the results, timeline, Plan B and Plan C. Make a business case for it and watch it happen. The people of this nation have proven themselves many times over to be totally capable of understand and acting when the facts are presented in a manner that makes logical sense.

Bring it on or quit all the hysterical whining.

I haven't finished the post yet but here's what I've got so far.

So how do we go about stoping and reversing climate change? We'll start by using the goal Glenn gave in this thread of reducing our carbon foot print by 40% by 2050 and the IPCC goal of 100% in 2100.

To effectively analyze this issue we need to know three things:

  • How much power per capita do we need by 2050 and by 2100
  • Is there mix of power that could realistically reduce and eliminate our CO2 emissions
  • How much CO2 needs to be pulled out of the air to reverse MMGW

SECTION 1:
Power and Population

Our carbon footprint for the most part is tied to the global population, mix of power sources, and standard of living expressed in terms of kWH per person per year. Reduce any of these and our carbon foot print goes down.

Now the green extremists don't seem to care about people or standards of living as long as the environment is protected. The conservative extremists don't care about people or protecting the environment if it reduces profits/economy. While both extremes are just opposite side of the same crazy coin there is a kernel of truth in each. The environment needs to be protected because we need it. The economy also needs to be protected because we need it too.

So my goal is to find a solution that simultaneously maintains or raises the standard of living while reducing our carbon footprint.

The only way I see to do that is to reduce the future population of the planet. The only way to do that ethically and morally is to increase the standard of living in the third world so birth rates drop and global population declines.

To increase the standard of living the number of kWh per person per year must increase. To do that while simultaneously reducing our carbon foot print before the population begins to reduce means significantly changing our mix of power sources.

To answer this question we need to know whether it's possible to reduce global population through standard of living and are there alternative power sources that could reasonably displace coal, oil and natural gas.

First up global population. From UN projections we are looking most likely at slowing growth but still peeking at 10+billion by 2050.




The breakdown shows that most of the gain is coming from developing nations. Developed nations actually have slowly declining or stagnating populations:




When looking at the break down by country, the countries with the highest birth rates also have some of the lowest kWh per person per year.
List of Countries by Birth Rate

Table of Countries by kWh per capita per year

For example:

Ethiopia has a rate of natural increase (birth rate - death rate) of over 32 but only 52 kWh per person per year

Italy on the other hand has a slightly negative rate of natural increase of -1.26 and over 5500 kWh per capita per year.

So the question is:

If we assume that by taking action to raise 3rd world quality of living we'll hit the lower peak population of ~8.5billion in 2050 how many kWh do we need to raise everyone up to 1st world quality of living while replacing 40% fossil fuel usage.?


Assumption 1: 1st world quality of living standards (~ Italy@ 5500kwh/person year) will let us reach the lower predicted global population

Assumption 2: Efficiency gains of 10% will be available by 2050 lowering the total kWH per person year required by ~ 500kwh/ person year for the third world

Assumption 3: There are currently 6 billion people in the third world with an average 1000kwh/person year who will need another 4000kwh/person year to reach 1st world quality of living

Assumption 4: 1.5billion new people in the third world need 5000kwh/person year in 2050 to reach 1st world quality of living

So for new generation we need:

6billion people x (4000kwh/person year) + 1.5billion people x (5000kwh/person year) =

3.60TW or 31.5trillion kWH per year in additional generation in 2050


In 2014 the world used about 17TW of power or 1.496x10^14kWh/year

Split as follows:
  • Petroleum: 5.75TW
  • Coal: 5.12TW
  • Natural Gas: 4.11TW
  • Nuclear: 0.82TW
  • Renewable: 1.37TW


So to hit the target of 40% reduction of emissions by 2050 we need to replace:

.4 x (Coal + Natural Gas + Oil) =
5.96TW or 5.2X 10^13kWh/year

Total new clean power generation required for 2050 (40% fossil fuel replacement + new generation)= 5.96TW + 3.6TW =

9.56TW or 8.37 X 10^13 kwh/yr

Let's take a look at 2100 and see what it would require to get to 0 fossil fuel usage.

Assumption 5: With the third world now at 1st world standard of living assume a reduction to 6Billion people by 2100

Assumption 6: Another 10% efficiency gain is possible by 2100.

So to calculate the required clean power generation let's take the total power required in 2050 with 8.5billion and scale it down to 6billion and take another 10% off:

(17TW +3.6TW) (6B/8.5B)(.9)=

13.1TW Total clean generation in 2100

Now in 2050 we are already generating 11.75 TW cleanly so by 2100 we only have to generate another:

1.33TW

Population reduction means over 6TW of fossil fuel generation can be removed. Leaving only the 1.33TW to be covered by clean generation.

Next up how feasible is it to generate this energy cleanly.


SECTION 2:
Potential Power

For the purposes of this post I'm going to look at two of the most obvious clean options:

  • Nuclear Fission
  • Solar


We'll also assume that fossil fuels for transportation can be replaced by battery electric, fuels cell, or carbon neutral bio/synthetic fuels by 2100.

Nuclear - Pros & Cons:

Nuclear fission is clean from a greenhouse gas perspective as nothing is burned. It's also incredibly power dense compared to other common power sources:

  • Natural Uranium (.7%U235) in a LWR - 443,000MJ/KG
  • Reactor Grade Uranium (3.5%U235) in LWR - 3,456,000MJ/KG
  • Natural Uranium in a Breeder Reactor - 86,000,000MJ/KG
  • D-T Fusion - 576,000,000MJ/KG
  • Oil - 46.3MJ/KG
  • Coal - 32.5MJ/KG

Nuclear fission, depending on the process, releases 10,000 to 100,000 times more energy in a light water reactor than oil; 2 million times more in a breeder reactor.

In section one we calculated that by 2050 we would need 9.56TW of clean energy with an additional 1.33TW by 2100.

How much Uranium would that require?

In 2013 world wide nuclear power production was 364GW (link).

To generate that the industry used a block of Uranium 14.5m/side:



To generate all the power required in part one in 2050 we would need about 28 of those Uranium blocks per year.

By 2100 we would need about an additional 4 blocks for a total of 32 blocks of Uranium.

If instead of light water reactors, breeders were used, a single block could generate 5 times more power than is required in 2100.

For comparisons sake this the size block of oil produced in 2013:


So the pro's are it's entirely possible to generate the required amount of power needed with no more uranium mining required than we already do.

The cons are how many new reactors are needed and the risk from the waste. The use of breeders can significantly reduce that risk by continuing to "burn" the waste as fuel reducing the amount of waste and drastically shortening the storage requirements.

There are some great designs for small modular reactors in the 10MW-50MW size that could be good for developing countries. Designs would need to take proliferation into account.

(link)

Solar Pro's and Cons

Solar is another and complimentary option.

The Earth intercepts ~ 2x10^17W of solar power. This is about 20000 times more power than we need in 2100. Hypothetically it could supply all the power we would ever need.

Let's make some assumptions and see what would be a reasonable amount of solar power to generate from a low cost third world country solution.

Assumption 1: For developing countries assume fixed solar arrays that point south, in the Northern Hemisphere and north in the Southern Hemisphere. Tracking arrays are more efficient but can break down. Fixed arrays can just be set up and left.

Assumption 2: Let's assume a 10m^2 array per person, (roughly 10ft by 10ft).

Assumption 3: Per this site, which unfortunately has changed significantly since I started investigating this,(link) let's assume that the average yearly US solar insolation of ~5kwh/day for a fixed array pointed south at latitude is a good proxy for anywhere in the world.

Assumption 4: Assume the average efficiency of a mid-late 21st century solar array is ~ 25%. (The ISS arrays designed in the 80's are in the teens, stuff coming out the labs today are max at 40%).

kwh/person year = 5kwh/day x 365days x .25 = 456kwh/year

Or

.442TW per year

While that's a 50% increase above the baseline of 1000kwh/person year for most of the third world today it's only about 5% of the 9.56TW power we are looking for by 2050.

To completely replace the rest of the power we calculated for 2050 using the best solar arrays at 40% efficiency, dual axis sun tracking, and in the sunniest places around the word like the American Southwest (link), we get about

12kWH/m^2 per day x .4 x 365days

=1752 kWH/m^2 per year.

(9.56TW per year - .442TW per year) x (1 / 1752kWH/m^2 per year) =

46,000 km^2 worth of arrays.

Or

A square 213km on a side.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,720
6,201
126
Now you know why the Human Race will eventually drive itself to extinction or at least to a massive population crash.

You simply have to read this thread to know. The CBD is going to kill us all. To us will fall the task of saying forgive them Father for they know not what they do. The conservative brain has been subjected to so much humiliation in childhood that it can't face a single thought of personal guilt about anything.
 

makken

Golden Member
Aug 28, 2004
1,476
0
71
I still have to do section 3 and cleanup the post and check the math.

Still reading over this. It is a very high altitude global view, although I have a few issues with it:

1) I don't think I quite agree with the premises that the population has to reduce. With increased efficiency, newer methods of food production and better distribution, and clean power generation, I don't think we're at carrying capacity yet.

2) simply increasing per capita kWh consumption doesn't garentee increased standard of living. There are many more aspects to that than just plopping down power plants e.g., a stable government, a thriving economy, security of basic resources.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,848
13,784
146
Still reading over this. It is a very high altitude global view, although I have a few issues with it:

1) I don't think I quite agree with the premises that the population has to reduce. With increased efficiency, newer methods of food production and better distribution, and clean power generation, I don't think we're at carrying capacity yet.

2) simply increasing per capita kWh consumption doesn't garentee increased standard of living. There are many more aspects to that than just plopping down power plants e.g., a stable government, a thriving economy, security of basic resources.

1) as high view as it is, its more work than I intended for a P&N post. Population tends to decrease with increasing living standards. I don't think a slowly declining population is a near-midterm problem. Increasing efficiency can still increase market size post 2100. Besides this is just an outline feel free to sub your own numbers.

2)KWH/capita is a proxy. Education, agriculture, infrastructure, and security all have to go along with it. I can't solve all the problems in a single post.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,590
7,651
136
I haven't finished the post yet but here's what I've got so far.

So how do we go about stoping and reversing climate change? We'll start by using the goal Glenn gave in this thread of reducing our carbon foot print by 40% by 2050 and the IPCC goal of 100% in 2100.

To effectively analyze this issue we need to know three things:

  • How much power per capita do we need by 2050 and by 2100
  • Is there mix of power that could realistically reduce and eliminate our CO2 emissions
  • How much CO2 needs to be pulled out of the air to reverse MMGW
...

:thumbsup: You have a general nodding approval for dealing in something both practical and of sound science. If such plans come to a vote, the exact details will matter, but I stand behind the idea and look forward to seeing nuclear and solar advance.

If someone stands in the way of this goal, they will not have my vote.
 

DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
49,606
166
111
www.slatebrookfarm.com
1) as high view as it is, its more work than I intended for a P&N post. Population tends to decrease with increasing living standards. I don't think a slowly declining population is a near-midterm problem. Increasing efficiency can still increase market size post 2100. Besides this is just an outline feel free to sub your own numbers.

2)KWH/capita is a proxy. Education, agriculture, infrastructure, and security all have to go along with it. I can't solve all the problems in a single post.

Awww, c'mon. You should be able to solve all the world's problems in a single post. It's P&N, after all. Nice post. Though, based on costs, I would guess that it would make more economic sense to go with a larger area of less efficient solar cells. I'm not so sure that mass production would ever bring the cost of what is cutting edge solar cells down enough to make them more feasible than cheaper solar cells. The cutting edge solar cells; close to 50% efficiency if I'm not mistaken, are ideal for areas such as space, where cost to get them there is a major expense in itself; not to mention other aspects such as lower requirements for cooling.

However, long term reliance on fission - we'd be repeating what we did in the early 1900's with oil: "we'll never run out!" Mineable uranium is finite; solar won't run out.
 

Paratus

Lifer
Jun 4, 2004
16,848
13,784
146
Awww, c'mon. You should be able to solve all the world's problems in a single post. It's P&N, after all. Nice post. Though, based on costs, I would guess that it would make more economic sense to go with a larger area of less efficient solar cells. I'm not so sure that mass production would ever bring the cost of what is cutting edge solar cells down enough to make them more feasible than cheaper solar cells. The cutting edge solar cells; close to 50% efficiency if I'm not mistaken, are ideal for areas such as space, where cost to get them there is a major expense in itself; not to mention other aspects such as lower requirements for cooling.

However, long term reliance on fission - we'd be repeating what we did in the early 1900's with oil: "we'll never run out!" Mineable uranium is finite; solar won't run out.

Heh. . I may have come of to harsh as I agree with some of his concerns.

I actually started this post for a climate change thread Glenn started. Never quite finished it. If I get the chance I'll get a rough estimate for how many tons of CO2 would have to come out of the atmosphere to get back to 350PPM and how many acres of new rainforest that would equal.

Solar efficiency has come way up. We could replace the ISS arrays with new ones about 1/3 the length and not lose a single watt.

Mostly though I was looking for a rough solution and trying to bound a couple of the options.

You're right about fission intrinsically having the same problem as coal. Although the time frame to run out is longer by an order of magnitude or more.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
I still have to do section 3 and cleanup the post and check the math.

your whole argument is invalid because you didn't check your math!



Holy shit man! That was easily the best post I've seen in a long time. My work internet is shit, so the graphics didn't load, but great work from what I saw!
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,563
9
81
You simply have to read this thread to know. The CBD is going to kill us all. To us will fall the task of saying forgive them Father for they know not what they do. The conservative brain has been subjected to so much humiliation in childhood that it can't face a single thought of personal guilt about anything.

I'm OK with extinction. At least I wouldn't have to listen to your bullshit anymore.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,371
14
61
It's just more scandal mongering & shit flinging from Dems. It helps their base keep their minds right at an attitudinal level.

They don't need any reasons for irrational Bush hate, they just need excuses to express it. It's blowing off steam to vent the pressure of cognitive dissonance.
 
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