Too many people are looking at buying cars as getting a deal at best buy or something. Forget rebates and incentives and such. The sticker isn't the sticker. They can only sell a car for whatever consumers are willing to pay. Remember what Chrysler (ha ha ha) did with the PT Cruiser? You had a 5k to 8k mark up on them because they were "
soo very cool". Now you can't throw a dead cat without hitting one and the resale is crap. I've paid just above and just below invoice on my last few cars this decade. Even the "soo very cool" ones. Here is how to ignore the rebates and incentive "hype" and get a car at a good value and stick it back at the greedy lying auto dealers. First, Edmunds to do your homework. Use TMV as a benchmark. Then you hit up your local dealers, get in a test drive and get some more quotes (keep in mind TMV). They know what their immediate competitors are doing and won't budge that much at first. Then you hit up dealers in the nearest metro area or so (I'm between LA and SF, but prefer SF/Silicon Valley). Google for email and copy/paste something like "I live in X and my local dealers say X for X vehicle in X or X color with X package(s). Do you have anything I would like and what can you do to make me drive over to see you?". I have gotten better and can work in my trade, but without is easier. You just say X dealer quoted you X$ on your trade but you would like X$ (have to be fairly reasonable here). Half will bite, a quarter will not even read it but send you spam, and the other half will ignore you or flounder in memorized banter. That half you work. Email "X dealer says X$ (the now better price), what can you do?". Keep that up and factor in the trade deal if possible. Trades unseen are very YMMV and tricky but I've gotten 1.5k more by simply baiting and lying (wow, learned that trick from these dealers). Anyway, the price will drop and the dealers slowly drop out, just like poker and they fold. You will be left with 2 or 3 that are the best you can do. Pick the lowest and tell the other(s) that you are going with X dealer. He will either agree or give you another big discount. There you is you lucky bastard! Oh, and don't let the closer(s) sell you the extended warranty, $200 alarm for a grand or window etching, etc. These are all scams! Your car insurance probably has a program that is waaaay cheaper for warranty's. My last purchase was a 2008 Toyota FJ Cruiser with 4X4, roof rack and running boards and well equipped. MSRP was $33.3 and I got the price down to $24.8 and my trade was given more, about $500 below KB! That is very good for a trade. Average offer is "fair" condition wholesale dealer trade. They usually try to hose you big time here and I've seen people get sooo screwed. Car before that I got under invoice and more than my trade was worth (well, as a trade). Before that, I got it for invoice but sold my trade privately instead. How did I do it? Well I've purchased a few cars in my time. I also have sold cars (albeit briefly), from new BMW's to used pieces of crap. I've seen the deals and a "grand ballroom" BMW dealership and a "pot lot" Bar None selling crappy cars both use similar tricks to get money out of you. Got a good price? Well they will bite off your trade to screw you. I've seen them screw people in the front AND back of a deal. This is a business transaction. Buying a car isn't courting a spouse, not personal and remember, YOU are the boss and not them. The car salesman is getting screwed from the dealer already. The dealer won't sell you a car for a loss (yes, they will try to tell you they are). Weber BMW in Fresno gave a grandma $2.5k for her Infinity G20. Turned around and sold it for $9k, it was mint! She paid full price for her 3 series too. She got hosed! Think about it. Save your money and take control!