JK Rowling is one reward club sticker away from joining the Full Nazi fan club

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Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
14,796
10,221
136
But I thought sports were about who was best, physically, genetically, whatever? What about who's best at handling PED's? Greenman said it can't be fair, it can't be inclusive, so let's make it unfair and exclusive.

If the argument is distasteful, is it 'competitive' that M. Phelps got that fishsuit from the year 2100 apparently an Olympics or two back? IIRC he shattered a few records wearing that thing, and while he probably would have won regardless it clearly gave him an edge. Is that okay? If so, are other 'prosthetics' okay? Where's this imaginary line between competitive and fairness and 'not allowed' and why does it always seem to come down to what's between someone's legs?
FYI, those suits were banned after that Olympics. Even so, everyone in the pool with Mike Phelps had access to them or something similar. Technology in sports is always a hotly debated subject as well, that should also be governed by the governing bodies of those sports. In long distance running, after Nike came out with the Vaporfly, the international running association drew the line in the sand that shoes could go no further than it. Javelin decades ago made the javelins worse because they were being thrown too far.

If you want to see competition with unlimited PEDs go to body building. I really don't understand how the argument on whether or not women should be allowed to have their own place in sports always turns into some bullshit about PEDs. PEDs suck for sports because I know I can pump someone full of speed and throw them on a bike and get amazing results, and people have died in the middle of races from it.

Again tell me, why was Title 9 so important to liberals in the 70s, and apparently not all important to liberals today? Why should women be forced to compete with genetical males, unless there is scienific proof there is no sex based advantage (for example, never went through puberty as a male)? Why aren't you demanding inclusion for other things, like why ban pilots that have been medically prescribed opiates?

It seems you all don't care at all about sports, so why is it so important to you all that transwomen be allowed into women's sports? Again, I agree that it should be up to the sports bodies, not the government, but if the sports bodies ban it, or have very strict regulations on it, would you accept it?
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,000
10,167
136
Trans persons in sports. I mean I get it.

BUT.

But try for a second being that centrist independent voter. Christofacist anti abortion clowns to the left of me and trans-women knocking women out in the octagon jokers to the right. Here I am. Stuck in the middle with noone.(RFK?)

I mean, it should be such an easy choice with Roe and all.

So easy to not fuck it up. So why? Baby steps.

I don't think one in good conscience can "leave an issue alone" that is actively affecting transpeoples' lives, it does need to be addressed.

Do you seriously call yourself a centrist? Between what and what? The far-right GQP and the right-wing Democratic party? An actual political spectrum centrist would be considered a lefty of both of those parties.

I thought the only people who called themselves centrists were GQP trolls.
 
Reactions: pmv

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
14,534
12,658
146
FYI, those suits were banned after that Olympics. Even so, everyone in the pool with Mike Phelps had access to them or something similar. Technology in sports is always a hotly debated subject as well, that should also be governed by the governing bodies of those sports. In long distance running, after Nike came out with the Vaporfly, the international running association drew the line in the sand that shoes could go no further than it. Javelin decades ago made the javelins worse because they were being thrown too far.

If you want to see competition with unlimited PEDs go to body building. I really don't understand how the argument on whether or not women should be allowed to have their own place in sports always turns into some bullshit about PEDs. PEDs suck for sports because I know I can pump someone full of speed and throw them on a bike and get amazing results, and people have died in the middle of races from it.

Again tell me, why was Title 9 so important to liberals in the 70s, and apparently not all important to liberals today? Why should women be forced to compete with genetical males, unless there is scienific proof there is no sex based advantage (for example, never went through puberty as a male)? Why aren't you demanding inclusion for other things, like why ban pilots that have been medically prescribed opiates?

It seems you all don't care at all about sports, so why is it so important to you all that transwomen be allowed into women's sports? Again, I agree that it should be up to the sports bodies, not the government, but if the sports bodies ban it, or have very strict regulations on it, would you accept it?
I don't really have that much skin in the game (har). I was just being intentionally obtuse to point out the stupidity of @Greenman's argument that sportsball isn't supposed to be fair. It clearly is, given that we do take steps to assure fairness (like limiting PEDs, limiting technology provided, etc), and imho 'fairness' should extend to what players are permitted to play, regardless of sex or gender. I do believe this should be up to the sports bodies, and I do not believe the govt should have a hand in it.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,494
13,078
136
I don't think one in good conscience can "leave an issue alone" that is actively affecting transpeoples' lives, it does need to be addressed.

Do you seriously call yourself a centrist? Between what and what? The far-right GQP and the right-wing Democratic party? An actual political spectrum centrist would be considered a lefty of both of those parties.

I thought the only people who called themselves centrists were GQP trolls.
No what I am saying is you should probably do some polling on this issue before you hand your country over to the christofascists over this “injustice”.
 
Nov 17, 2019
11,230
6,692
136
" I do believe this should be up to the sports bodies, and I do not believe the govt should have a hand in it."


At the pro level, yes. But this is getting into high school and below where states and even some local governments are making rules contrary to what some schools want.

Again I say, size and weight classes. Two runners, swimmers, or even ball players that are nearly equal in size and weight are generally going to be able to compete equally, regardless of gender.

The one swimmer that made this all an issue was not equal in stature to the others.
 
Reactions: [DHT]Osiris

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,260
8,192
136
Tell me, why was Title 9 so important to liberals in the 70s, and apparently not all important to liberals today?

I don't give a toss about "title 9", I gather it's some weird American thing, somehow related to the strange way the US has mixed up semi-professional sport and education. Nor do I give a toss about "liberals" - I have never liked liberals, right-wingers as they are.
 

mikeymikec

Lifer
May 19, 2011
18,000
10,167
136
No what I am saying is you should probably do some polling on this issue before you hand your country over to the christofascists over this “injustice”.

I'm not following your logic from beginning to end.


Ever since I learnt that liberalism apparently meant something other than what I thought it meant, I've steered clear of such terms.
 
Reactions: cytg111

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,494
13,078
136
I'm not following your logic from beginning to end.
No. You're not. I dont know how I can spell it out any clearer - and that is probably on me, I am simply not equipped to properly articulate the position im trying to convey.

1. Am not a US citizen but if I were I'd be classified as progressive. As far left as possible while still maintaining core principles of democracy, separation of powers, free press etc.
2. It's OK for a progressive to know how to fight.
3, Pick this fight another time.
4. Please.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,494
13,078
136
I'm not following your logic from beginning to end.



Ever since I learnt that liberalism apparently meant something other than what I thought it meant, I've steered clear of such terms.
Ill throw it in occasionally if I know the audience ... like with "inching closer" "own the libs" - that sort of thing.
 

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,260
8,192
136

I don't entirely agree with that article. US and European liberalism are not, in fact, that different, they are both right-wing and share the same underlying world view (both in the sense of emphasizing individualism and being keen on defending the privileges of the class that tends to embrace the ideology).

It's just that the very different context in which they exist means they are perceived differently, and they emphasize their component parts differently. The "right" in the US is so off-the-scale bonkers (being so heavily influenced by religion), that "liberals" appear like the "left" in comparison.

[Edit] Actually they seem different in every country - here "liberals" were just wishy-washy types, usually middle-class professionals, who didn't want to pick between capitalism and socialism and who tended to be keen on marginal social causes, like legalising pot, that most people didn't feel that strongly about either way. I gather on the Continent (and maybe Australia and Canada?) such parties are more overtly right-wing, emphasising the pro-capitalism part more.

Liberalism seems to take different forms depending on the presence and nature of religion in each society.
 
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cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,494
13,078
136
I don't entirely agree with that article. US and European liberalism are not, in fact, that different, they are both right-wing and share the same underlying world view (both in the sense of emphasizing individualism and being keen on defending the privileges of the class that tends to embrace the ideology).

It's just that the very different context in which they exist means they are perceived differently, and they emphasize their component parts differently. The "right" in the US is so off-the-scale bonkers (being so heavily influenced by religion), that "liberals" appear like the "left" in comparison.
And every time you engage in that term across ponds you'll just put that six-liner as a foot note and there will be no miscommunication misunderstandings at all.
 

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,567
5,291
136
Then why are performance enhancing drugs banned? Explain without using the words fair or equal.
Because drugs can enhance a persons natural ability.
Why are you even asking the question? Do you want the Olympics to be about who is the beet athlete or who has the best dope?
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,494
13,078
136
Because drugs can enhance a persons natural ability.
Why are you even asking the question? Do you want the Olympics to be about who is the beet athlete or who has the best dope?
No, Greenman, he is luring you into a revelation that shit has nuances, but to see nuances you need eyes and you, Greenman, blind as a motherfucker.
 
Reactions: [DHT]Osiris

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,550
24,764
136
Because drugs can enhance a persons natural ability.
Why are you even asking the question? Do you want the Olympics to be about who is the beet athlete or who has the best dope?
Track and field banned a woman from competing because her body naturally produced too much testosterone. Was that fair?
 
Reactions: [DHT]Osiris

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,567
5,291
136
No, Greenman, he is luring you into a revelation that shit has nuances, but to see nuances you need eyes and you, Greenman, blind as a motherfucker.
Keep telling yourself how wrong I am, and keep watching as the pro sports rules keep changing to exclude men from competing against women. There is no nuance hear, it's a binary situation where second or third tier male athletes are declaring themselves to be women so they can dominate a sport.

What do you have against female athletes? Why do you want to see men beat them in pro sports? Rather than attacking me, perhaps you should engage in a little introspection and figure out why you desire to see women dominated by men.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,550
24,764
136
There is no nuance hear, it's a binary situation where second or third tier male athletes are declaring themselves to be women so they can dominate a sport.
How to tell us you sit around and listen or watch conservative “news” sources all day without telling us.

Please put a specific number on these instances.
 

cytg111

Lifer
Mar 17, 2008
23,494
13,078
136
Keep telling yourself how wrong I am, and keep watching as the pro sports rules keep changing to exclude men from competing against women. There is no nuance hear, it's a binary situation where second or third tier male athletes are declaring themselves to be women so they can dominate a sport.

What do you have against female athletes? Why do you want to see men beat them in pro sports? Rather than attacking me, perhaps you should engage in a little introspection and figure out why you desire to see women dominated by men.
No dumbass. I don't. That doesnt mean I cant have a discussion about what constitutes an unfair advantage.
I can have that dialogue. Seems you cant. Cause you lack eyes.
 

VRAMdemon

Diamond Member
Aug 16, 2012
6,552
7,808
136
Rowling is a billionaire and each Potterverse product can crash and burn from now until the end of the world and will make no difference in how Rowling will act, feel or express herself. She has made her money and continues to do so. Everyone can stop buying every Potterverse thing tomorrow and she’ll still be a billionaire TERF fucking yelling on Twitter. Rowling is a truly noxious human. She doesn’t just “dislike” trans people, she’s using her fame to actively campaign against them, and their rights, pushing an agenda that is known to cause harm to real people.

TERFs, (trans-exclusionary radical feminist) groups are working with conservatives to push their anti-trans agenda. Gender-critical feminism, at its core, opposes the self-definition of trans people, arguing that anyone born with a vagina is in its own oppressed sex class, while anyone born with a penis is automatically an oppressor. In a TERF world, gender is a system that exists solely to oppress women, which it does through the imposition of femininity on those assigned female at birth. Her misinformed and dangerous missives about transgender people flies in the face of medical and psychological experts and devalues trans peoples accounts of their own lives. She is sowing divisiveness in a time when REAL leaders are trying to bring unity and acceptance. She’s speaking from this place of just sheer stupidity, and extreme feminism. She’s not even understanding how much death and violence are behind all of those opinions that she’s sharing on social media. She can go fuck herself!
 
Reactions: iRONic

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,567
5,291
136
No dumbass. I don't. That doesnt mean I cant have a discussion about what constitutes an unfair advantage.
I can have that dialogue. Seems you cant. Cause you lack eyes.
You think men should be competing in women's sports and I'm the dumbass.
 
Reactions: iRONic

pmv

Lifer
May 30, 2008
13,260
8,192
136
Because drugs can enhance a persons natural ability.
Why are you even asking the question? Do you want the Olympics to be about who is the beet athlete or who has the best dope?

Personally I want the Olympics to cease to exist. It causes far, far more harm than good. Between the incentivizing of drug-use, the environmental catastrophe it usually turns out to be, the orgy of nationalism it involves, the corruption, and the encouragement of crazy ideas about competition for competition's sake, and the general humungous waste-of-effort, resources and time that goes into it, I think it's a tragedy it ever existed.
 
Reactions: iRONic and IronWing

Greenman

Lifer
Oct 15, 1999
20,567
5,291
136
The simple reality is that almost everything people do is wasteful and destructive. Another simple reality is that we're competitive. We compete in everything that's measurable, and a lot of stuff that's subjective. We find ways of measuring things so we can pronounce ourselves superior than group X. That's never going to change.
 

kitkat22

Golden Member
Feb 10, 2005
1,462
1,322
136
Apparently, I have become a leading expert on human and sex development. Basically, I am a doctor that has spent a lot of time reviewing medical literature on physiology, genetics, development, psychiatry, neurology and speaking up. I can nerd talk about this stuff for hours. I've spent time studying various world cultures and history regarding intersex and transgender individuals. I work with both intersex and transgender individuals. I also collaborate with other doctors and research centers across the country and world. I have also worked with various government entities, large medical organizations, and religious entities. I would dare to venture "I've done my research" and "I know my s***."

In its simplest terms, biologic sex is more complicated than we give credit. Our current definition, as penned in Webster's dictionary, is woefully inadequate and part of the problem. I will slightly paraphrase, "of, or related to the sex that produces sperm or eggs." Obviously, male and female, respectively. According to most, those are two definitions, in reality, it is four. Those who produce sperm. Those who produce eggs. Those that produce neither and the rare occasion where someone can produce both. The "neither" is far more common than we think. That definition, BTW, is consistent across the English speaking world and other languages and cultures. Historically, however, the definition has evolved. There are various historical dictionaries online, but I ordered a few to watch the evolution of the definitions. My all time favorite was this definition of female, "not male."

When I ask medical students what the "of, or related to" means in those definitions I get blank stares. Most will say chromosomes. Others will say external anatomy. We divide sex biologic sex based on primary and secondary attributes. The primary attributes are identified as gametes, gonads, internal anatomy, external anatomy, genetics (not just chromosomes), hormones, the adrenal gland, and the pituitary gland. Eight characteristics that must work together to make the "of, or related to." The secondary characteristics develop as a consequence of the primary. These are the attributes we see from day to day and are the consequence of puberty. These include face structure, body fat composition, breast growth, hair distribution, skeletal growth and so on. Each one of the above characteristics have an infinite number of variations. It's not just the sequences of DNA or genes, we now look at the function and development of those genes over time. Called epigenetics.

To help put this in perspective, we can look at genetics as layers:
1) The chromosomal layer - this is where most people's education lies. They think simple Mendelian genetics and is frequently where they make their arguments
2) the gene layer - this layer has been developing since about 1995, but the first gene sequencers came about in the 1980s and were ridiculously slow.
3) the epigenetic layer - this is a new scientific research focus that has evolved from about the 2010s. This layer studies are the genes behave over time and includes concepts like "imprinting"
4) the phenotypic layer - this is what is the effect of the above

This is just looking at the body development and status. The brain develops semi-independently of gonadal development. The genes involved in brain development are different than gonadal development. There is communication between the two with hormonal signals and cell-to-cell communication, but they are otherwise independent.

In utero, a fetus has both male and female structures at the gonadal ridge. The mesonephros and paramesonephros ducts. (Wolffian and Mullerian ducts or typically male and female development pathways, respectively). In reality, both males and females have remnant structures of these processes. For males, they have the remnant "female" structure, the appendix testes and for females, they have the Gartner ducts. Genetic pathways of human development requires advancing the expected biologic sex and suppression of the alternate. Since, there are 100s of genes involved, the process can and does go awry of what is expected. This is where we get intersex conditions or variations of sexual development. This is also where and why we get individuals with gender dysphoria and are transgender.

Want a cool example of genetic imprinting? Angelman and Prader-Willi.
25% of Turner's patient are mosaic XO/XY
10% of miscarriages are fetuses with Turner's genetics
There are over 4000 congenital conditions like Down's, Turner's and Klinefelter's
There are over 65 "disorders" of sexual development - like CAIS, PAIS, CAH, CHH, Kallman's, Swyer, De la Chappelle, etc
50% of XY individuals with ambiguous genitalia do not have a discernible genetic cause
3% of worldwide individuals born, according to the World Health Organization, have a congenital condition, sometimes multiple
It is estimated that variations of sexual development affect 1-2% of the world population
 
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