Job Hunting Woes (a rant)

[Rinaun]

Holy eff I didnt expect it to be so hard to start my career in San Jose.....I've applied to probably 60 or so serious positions in two months, done over 20 in-person and phone interviews, and yet zero solid leads on any job that pays more than 16/hour. I've even gotten to the final interview session for 2-3 companies to be told no thanks; one even told me depressingly I was their second choice. Basically almost all the jobs I've been looking for aren't really designed for someone fresh out of college and require 2-4 years of experience in HR/marketing/Communications/IT Support. This is beside the fact that larger companies don't even $#$king reply to my submissions, or are clearly lowballing beyond reason (no, I won't drive to customers with my car and do SysAdmin work for 13/hour >.>). I'd say my experience is unique but all my friends had the same issues before they were hired: one did 50 interviews, and another did 80 before being hired.

That all being said, any tips on how to land an almost intern-level job in the bay area without having to completely genuflect and grovel for employment, or rely on nepotism/cronyism? Any recruiting agencies anyone recommends? I have work experience, ran my own IT consulting company, and even earned awards from companies like Hewlett Packard.........but just can't seem to find where all the "desktop support" or "marketing intern" positions are so that I can learn a specific career further. I'm kinda weird when it comes to nepotism/cronyism, too. I just feel asking a friend at Google or Apple to vouch for me is awkward as fuuuu.


Any advice is helpful, as I'm really starting to look outside of the bay area and I'd rather avoid that. Moving away to a new area for easier employment is what my friends did and they don't seem too happy living in Texas, Carolina, ETC. I'm simply lost in trying to find a career in the greater bay area that will grow my skills while at the same time granting that company a reliable, efficient employee.

P.S. Damn, Anandtech has changed a ton. Not sure I like the new theme :/

 

[DaTT]

Don't hesitate to ask your friends to put in a reference for you. Any little bit helps.

 

[purbeast0]

I'm confused. You have ran a consulting company and have won awards from HP which means you did jobs or worked for them, so you have experience, yet you are looking for jobs that require no experience?

Also if you have no experience, you have no leverage. They aren't "lowballing" you, they are offering market value. You aren't going to just make a ton of money because you have a degree, you have to earn it. You sound like you think you're above making $13/hr when you're looking for $16/hr. If it were me I'd take that $13/hr job to get some experience and you can even look for another job while you are doing that one. It's better than being unemployed.

 

[cbrunny]

What is it you want to do?

 

[Viper GTS]

You need to get over your unwillingness to use your friends and contacts. People want to work with people they like, there's nothing bad about that. My last three jobs have come from referrals or contacts made while working with another company. Cold apps are nearly worthless if your competition is referrals and people with existing relationships with the company.

I get the desire to avoid creating relationships to get jobs. I won't do that. But if you have friends, former coworkers, etc who work where you want to work you are an idiot if you don't get their assistance.

Viper GTS

 

[CraKaJaX]

I'm confused. You have ran a consulting company and have won awards from HP which means you did jobs or worked for them, so you have experience, yet you are looking for jobs that require no experience?

This was my initial thought as well. Why are looking for "intern-level work" when you've ran your own company? That's certainly experience in my book, and should put you ahead of anyone that is intro-level. Why is your experience unique? What experience do you have specifically? What kind of job are you looking for? "HR/marketing/Communications/IT Support" is a VERY broad description ... and I wouldn't even put them in the same category.

Oh, and as far as ATOT layout .... in the bottom left dropdown menu, change your layout to "VB Style (Experimental)" and you'll transport back to old times. You're welcome.

 

[ultimatebob]

You've posted your resume publically the job sites like Dice and Monster.com, right?

If so, I'd be surprised if you haven't received job postings from 100's of recruiters by now. I still get their e-mails, and my resume isn't even publically posted anymore.

Anyway, I'd wade through those e-mails and see if you can find any solid leads. About 90% of them will be crap, but I'd imagine that at least a few of them will be promising. That's how I got my last job, anyway.

 

[Zeze]

I've been there. The trick is to:

1. Upload resume to all the major sites like Monster, CB, Indeed, Dice, etc.
2. Delete the resume and upload a same one again, so this 'bumps' your resume visibility to the top.
3. Sometimes, quantity does trump quality- I had about 3 different versions of resume slightly tweaked towards different positions (PM or PrgM or Product Mgr, etc). And at one point, I just spam-applied all positions within my 30 mile radius. The last 3 positions I got are the ones I didn't even bother to write a cover letter. I do send personal letters after resume though. But that's after you've already been found.
4. Work with recruiters. They'll actually come to you. Work with 4-5 of them. Call them back on weekly basis just to 'check in' and continue to stay on their radar.
5. Tap your friends and network.

All that careful writing and 'hand tailored' applications mean so little to them vs how much time & energy it consumed you.

Work smart. I wrote a nice template for bunch of questionnaires and I'd copy/paste them to everywhere that require them.

 

[nerp]

IT support is basically commoditized and outsourceable these days. If you were a software engineer, you'd be getting headhunter calls.

 

[Zeze]

IT support is basically commoditized and outsourceable these days. If you were a software engineer, you'd be getting headhunter calls.

As well as BAs and PMs. I'm still getting calls & tons of email when I haven't touched my resume over 3 yrs.

 

[ultimatebob]

IT support is basically commoditized and outsourceable these days. If you were a software engineer, you'd be getting headhunter calls.

The real hot shit IT title is "Dev Ops Engineer". It pays good, and they haven't outsourced it (yet) in most places.

Take a few free online classes in Chef and AWS administration. Put that on your resume, and and you'll have recruiters spamming you with job postings all the time.

 

[Rinaun]

I'm confused. You have ran a consulting company and have won awards from HP which means you did jobs or worked for them, so you have experience, yet you are looking for jobs that require no experience?

Also if you have no experience, you have no leverage. They aren't "lowballing" you, they are offering market value. You aren't going to just make a ton of money because you have a degree, you have to earn it. You sound like you think you're above making $13/hr when you're looking for $16/hr. If it were me I'd take that $13/hr job to get some experience and you can even look for another job while you are doing that one. It's better than being unemployed.

Yeah, I didn't make my reasons for "internship" positions clear; my bad. The main reasoning for going for the "internship" level jobs is that I'm a communications major fighting for a position that is generally handled by compsci/engi students. Now I do have experience academically in coding and computer hardware, but I decided to go communications t for other reasons. I did run a company for a few years (full-fledged LLC, really more like personal consulting), managed an online store for roughly a year, and participated in some testing for HP. That being said, I feel these experiences don't really reflect too well in interviews when my business didn't really make any relevant amount of revenue to list and the other accomplishments were years ago (2007 and 2009 respectively). I've dealt with customers for several years ranging from general contracting to online sales and even have experience writing small scripts for clients, building servers/desktops, and all that basic-level IT support............. but I'm going to bet employers aren't really seeing anything tangible or something. Really at this point I'm not even sure: I interviewed for 5-10 companies (not going to name specifics, but fairly large tech giants) for anything from technical writing to community manager, and every fucking time I've made it to the fifth interview only to be told no thanks.

Whats been killing me though is I'll go to interview for a simple tier 1 IT support position (or even just apply) and yet they want candidates to know active directory, group policies, and other stuff that I KNOW isn't 13/hour IT work from my own consulting and well, just basic knowledge of the area. I mean I get it, it's the bay area and to be relevant you need to bring something to the table, but I really didn't expect it to be so difficult this time around. Last year when I did this for part-time employment, I was hired on my second interview. I guess that's just how it goes in the bay :/

Don't hesitate to ask your friends to put in a reference for you. Any little bit helps.

You need to get over your unwillingness to use your friends and contacts. People want to work with people they like, there's nothing bad about that. My last three jobs have come from referrals or contacts made while working with another company. Cold apps are nearly worthless if your competition is referrals and people with existing relationships with the company.

I get the desire to avoid creating relationships to get jobs. I won't do that. But if you have friends, former coworkers, etc who work where you want to work you are an idiot if you don't get their assistance.

Viper GTS

Great advice, I probably just need to take a self-esteem/pride/whatever hit and simply ask friends if they have any immediate positions open. I'm not a fan of having no job over the Holidays and I'm sure there will be a holiday hiring freeze soon (if not already).

You've posted your resume publically the job sites like Dice and Monster.com, right?

If so, I'd be surprised if you haven't received job postings from 100's of recruiters by now. I still get their e-mails, and my resume isn't even publically posted anymore.

Anyway, I'd wade through those e-mails and see if you can find any solid leads. About 90% of them will be crap, but I'd imagine that at least a few of them will be promising. That's how I got my last job, anyway.

I posted on hired, linkedin, and Monster; I'll go refresh them all just to make sure it's up-to-date. I had a few offers, but almost all were commission-based insurance selling trash.

 

[clamum]

IT support is basically commoditized and outsourceable these days. If you were a software engineer, you'd be getting headhunter calls.

I'm a software dev and I get emails from recruiters (legit emails, not spam crap) almost weekly, since I started my current job (which is three years ago).

Anyway I echo what a couple others said, your work experience (which maybe if you actually listed for us instead of just saying "unique") doesn't really jive with what you're going after.

 

[purbeast0]

Yeah, I didn't make my reasons for "internship" positions clear; my bad. The main reasoning for going for the "internship" level jobs is that I'm a communications major fighting for a position that is generally handled by compsci/engi students. Now I do have experience academically in coding and computer hardware, but I decided to go communications t for other reasons. I did run a company for a few years (full-fledged LLC, really more like personal consulting), managed an online store for roughly a year, and participated in some testing for HP. That being said, I feel these experiences don't really reflect too well in interviews when my business didn't really make any relevant amount of revenue to list and the other accomplishments were years ago (2007 and 2009 respectively). I've dealt with customers for several years ranging from general contracting to online sales and even have experience writing small scripts for clients, building servers/desktops, and all that basic-level IT support............. but I'm going to bet employers aren't really seeing anything tangible or something. Really at this point I'm not even sure: I interviewed for 5-10 companies (not going to name specifics, but fairly large tech giants) for anything from technical writing to community manager, and every fucking time I've made it to the fifth interview only to be told no thanks.

Whats been killing me though is I'll go to interview for a simple tier 1 IT support position (or even just apply) and yet they want candidates to know active directory, group policies, and other stuff that I KNOW isn't 13/hour IT work from my own consulting and well, just basic knowledge of the area. I mean I get it, it's the bay area and to be relevant you need to bring something to the table, but I really didn't expect it to be so difficult this time around. Last year when I did this for part-time employment, I was hired on my second interview. I guess that's just how it goes in the bay :/

The fact that you don't have a major in the field could be something that is seen as a negative too. All things equal other than what you majored in, chances are they will take the candidate with a tech major over someone with a communications major. That's just the way it is. They have more classroom experience in the field than you do.

Another thing to note, the rate a company pays you is going to be SIGNIFICANTLY lower than the rate you were being paid with your own consulting gig. Do not expect to get anywhere NEAR what you would be getting paid if you were consulting on your own or freelancing. You will get other benefits from the company such as health insurance, paid vacation, 401k, etc, which you don't get when you are consulting on your own. You have to look at the total picture not just the salary. So you comparing the 13/hr they offered you vs. what you made on your own personal consulting gigs isn't really comparable.

 

[Rinaun]

I'm a software dev and I get emails from recruiters (legit emails, not spam crap) almost weekly, since I started my current job (which is three years ago).

Anyway I echo what a couple others said, your work experience (which maybe if you actually listed for us instead of just saying "unique") doesn't really jive with what you're going after.

I'll probably just upload the resume soon and let people pick it apart. If my resume can't list my skills adequately (or people find it looks retarded), then that might be why I'm not getting the positions I want. Really though, I'm open for anything in the IT sector as long as it has communications involved and isn't just me sitting writing C++/python scripts.

 

[cbrunny]

Comm major trying to get tech job in tech capital of USA.

No I have no idea why you can't find IT work.

 

[Zeze]

If I were you, I'd try my hardest to get out of IT support asap. It's far more expendable than other staff, pay is subpar, and I'd wager a guess that it's not as 'prestigious' than other areas of IT.

Go into real development or prod support.

 

[Rinaun]

The fact that you don't have a major in the field could be something that is seen as a negative too. All things equal other than what you majored in, chances are they will take the candidate with a tech major over someone with a communications major. That's just the way it is. They have more classroom experience in the field than you do.

Yeah, that is something I've realized and come to deal with the last year. That still doesn't explain why I'm not landing positions like "community manager" or "technical writer" though. I'm WAY qualified to handle that, but I'm going to bet (again) that they aren't seeing I have ACTUAL experience or are passing it off as not long-term experience.

If I were you, I'd try my hardest to get out of IT support asap. It's far more expendable than other staff, pay is subpar, and I'd wager a guess that it's not as 'prestigious' than other areas of IT.

Go into real development or prod support.

Oh I totally agree. My dream job would be product manager/lead, or some position where I work with others to help them accomplish their coding/etc. I really don't want to get into system administration or any of that stuff long-term, but I definitely wouldn't mind doing a year stint as a server support technician to learn new stuff I didn't encounter when working solo. For example, I don't do group policy work often due to my client-base being almost entirely residential stuff and then a few mom and pop companies.

The overall goal though is to get a position that is actually going to GROW my skillset. If I needed employment I'm sure Home Depot is hiring, but I want something that is going to actually apply toward my career in a beneficial way.

Comm major trying to get tech job in tech capital of USA.

No I have no idea why you can't find IT work.

I'd agree if it wasn't for the fact that I have several friends with entirely irrelevant degrees working in heavy IT positions. Most of them DID get their jobs from other friends and slowly worked their way up, though.

 

[purbeast0]

Yeah, that is something I've realized and come to deal with the last year. That still doesn't explain why I'm not landing positions like "community manager" or "technical writer" though. I'm WAY qualified to handle that, but I'm going to bet (again) that they aren't seeing I have ACTUAL experience or are passing it off as not long-term experience.

You are fresh out of school with no experience and you think you are ready to be a manager? You even said your experience is like a decade ago and wasn't for a company making much money so it's pretty much irrelevant.

I'd also think that tech writers would have a major in english with some technical classes on their resume.

 

[Zeze]

Yeah, that is something I've realized and come to deal with the last year. That still doesn't explain why I'm not landing positions like "community manager" or "technical writer" though. I'm WAY qualified to handle that, but I'm going to bet (again) that they aren't seeing I have ACTUAL experience or are passing it off as not long-term experience.

Did you read my first post about quantity?

 

[Rinaun]

Did you read my first post about quantity?

Yeah I actually did, your advice was really great and kinda solidified my thoughts (sorry I didn't reply earlier). I started with custom resumes and now at this point I'm shoveling resumes out that are generic and fit a wider range of positions. I also already did what you said for the questionnaire portion and now have a document with all that copy/paste trash that's required on proprietary applications.

You are fresh out of school with no experience and you think you are ready to be a manager? You even said your experience is like a decade ago and wasn't for a company making much money so it's pretty much irrelevant.

I'd also think that tech writers would have a major in english with some technical classes on their resume.

Uh, I was a manager for a store that shipped over 200-300 orders weekly and would commonly be ordering upwards of 10 grand worth of merchandise each month. That was however only for 10 or so months, so I'm not sure if that was even long enough to count as anything.

Also, tech writers aren't 100% english at all. Most of the time its Journalism, Marketing, Communications, and English listed. I'm sure we didn't write AS much as the English majors, but I know we weren't far behind at all. Most of the the classes are interchangeable (writing labs, etc).

 

[DigDog]

well, i was just on the phone with HP, or to be exact, HP-E. Great interview, nice people, solid enough job. Only problem, they were offering in the region of £20k + OTE yesterday over the phone, now they are saying its £16k.

Their support techs charge $300/h, maybe you are looking in the wrong direction.

 

[Rinaun]

well, i was just on the phone with HP, or to be exact, HP-E. Great interview, nice people, solid enough job. Only problem, they were offering in the region of £20k + OTE yesterday over the phone, now they are saying its £16k.

Their support techs charge $300/h, maybe you are looking in the wrong direction.

Don't work there/take an offer.......just trust me on this one. I've had several executives from within tell me to avoid HP at all costs until they fix their shit. HP-E isn't looking too good right now and won't be for a while. Shame too, as I REALLY wanted my first job to be with HP. Almost every conversation I have with my contacts that remain there include the line "Bill and Dave would be rolling over in their graves right now...."

 

[DigDog]

i'm afraid i am not in the position to take your advice. i will most likely be working with them within a couple weeks. it's ok though, here in the UK we don't stigmatize job hoppers, nowhere near the way they do in the US. changing jobs every 1-2 years is fairly common, i'd say. I do appreciate the warning though, and i've seen their glassdoor, 2.8 is nothing to shout about.

 

[dullard]

Sorry to hear about your trouble finding a job.

1) Rely on your friends. A recommendation is the #1 way to get a job. Especially in the S.F. area.

2) Figure out what you really want to do. You mentioned HR, Marketing, Communications, IT, product management, technical writing, etc. Those are all completely different areas. Pick one and focus on it.

3) You seem a bit too picky. Why does it have to be both IT and Communications related? That isn't really a common combination. Why aren't you willing to write scripts to get the experience that is wanted? Why not take a lower wage for a bit to get your foot in the door and then wow them?

4) Be more confident. If you are unwilling to list your successes, then you have no way to stand out from the crowd. Even if is a small successes (your consulting company didn't take off), for a short period (managing a store), or a while ago (your H.P. awards) list it and be proud of it.

5) Your sights are above your experience. Product management in many companies is almost the top job. It is a bad example now because of her bad performance, but Marissa Mayer went from product management to CEO of Yahoo. Product management really is that high of a position. Working as a manager in a small store isn't experience for that. They want sales experience then marketing experience then maybe you'll get into product management.

6) I may be reading too much into your internet rant, but if you interview even remotely like you are posting, you would not be hired by me. If can be really difficult to have a completely different private and professional persona. And it is even more difficult to make sure there is a complete separation in your interviews without accidentally slipping. So, try being the professional all the time, at least until you get settled into a new job. For example, your posts in this thread are not very coherent, rambling, and are neither organized nor focussed. Replies #3 and #4 were basically saying they were confused. I felt the exact same way.