Jobs on Flash/Google

[Pliablemoose]

http://www.wired.com/epicenter/2010...-is-bullshit-adobe-is-lazy-apples-steve-jobs/

On Google: We did not enter the search business, Jobs said. They entered the phone business. Make no mistake they want to kill the iPhone. We won’t let them, he says. Someone else asks something on a different topic, but there’s no getting Jobs off this rant. I want to go back to that other question first and say one more thing, he says. This don’t be evil mantra: “It’s bullshit.” Audience roars.

About Adobe: They are lazy, Jobs says. They have all this potential to do interesting things but they just refuse to do it. They don’t do anything with the approaches that Apple is taking, like Carbon. Apple does not support Flash because it is so buggy, he says. Whenever a Mac crashes more often than not it’s because of Flash. No one will be using Flash, he says. The world is moving to HTML5.

The world, of course, includes Google, which last week in a somewhat more modest development bypassed Apple’s iPhone app blockade by unveiling an html5 version of Google Voice, which takes full advantage of mobile Safari on the iPhone. Wired.com found it to be an impressive variation of the app Apple has neither approved nor officially rejected.

And it is, of course, in keeping with Google’s stated view (Android app marketplace notwithstanding) that the future is really in web-based applications and not in mobile apps at all. Web-based applications of the sort html5 makes much more viable.

So, great work rallying the troops, Steve — but be careful what you wish for.

Interesting...

I've had lots of problems with Flash, would really like to see HTML 5 make it on the web a bit sooner.

 

[AndroidVageta]

You know, I dont own a Mac nor do I use OSX...is the Flash problem a OSX thing? Ive been running Windows all my life...every OS theyve made, now on Windows 7 x64 and I for the life of me cannot EVER remember having any issues with Flash at any point ever! And this is with multiple PCs in my house right now too...

Im thinking its just a cover-up excuse...Adobe's lazy? Good job revamping that iPad and adding all new features...er...I mean...

 

[Pliablemoose]

You know, I dont own a Mac nor do I use OSX...is the Flash problem a OSX thing? Ive been running Windows all my life...every OS theyve made, now on Windows 7 x64 and I for the life of me cannot EVER remember having any issues with Flash at any point ever! And this is with multiple PCs in my house right now too...

Im thinking its just a cover-up excuse...Adobe's lazy? Good job revamping that iPad and adding all new features...er...I mean...

Cover up/excuse is probably about right, Flash would make a lot of apps redundant, and affect sales in the app store.

My flash problems have been on Windows PC's, video not showing up, freezing, crashing my browser, etc... Everything's working pretty well at the moment, and I'm pretty happy with W7. Dunno about the Mac OS & Flash problems.

I do miss Flash on my Android based phone when I'm surfing the net with it.

 

[WelshBloke]

On Google: We did not enter the search business, Jobs said. They entered the phone business. Make no mistake they want to kill the iPhone. We won’t let them, he says. Someone else asks something on a different topic, but there’s no getting Jobs off this rant. I want to go back to that other question first and say one more thing, he says. This don’t be evil mantra: “It’s bullshit.” Audience roars.

That doesn't sound paranoid at all.

Thing is though Flash could be a lot better and the whole Google 'don't be evil' this is bullshit, but he seems to be going down the Jen-Hsun Huang path of working with companies in the same field there. Public displays of anger while amusing for everyone else don't normally achieve a lot for the explodee.

 

[aphex]

Wow, Jobs is out with guns blazing. I admire his tenacity to push things forward, but don't leave us gimped in the meantime.

 

[Pliablemoose]

I was just trying to watch a video on the HP Slate & the Flash player froze ~6 times

 

[QueBert]

Cover up/excuse is probably about right, Flash would make a lot of apps redundant, and affect sales in the app store.

Not a cover up, Apple sells South Park episodes in their store for $1.99 each, and they offer a cheap south park app made by South Park Studios that allows you to watch them for free over the internet on your iPhone. Flash sucks balls on OSX, I'm on OSX right now. If Adobe can't make it run well on a dual core OSX computer. I have zero faith they could make it even functional on mobile device with a slow cpu and a gimped version of OSX. I'll bet anything iPhones will fully support HTML5. And in theory HTML5 will make a lot of apps redundant, which means Apple should hate it by your logic. I'll go as far as to say Apple will be one of the first companies to embrace HTML5.

 

[Kaido]

I was just trying to watch a video on the HP Slate & the Flash player froze ~6 times

Yeah...I totally agree with Jobs on this point. My browsers crash at least 3 or 4 times a week under OS X, all thanks to Flash. I use Vimeo and Youtube a ton because filming is my hobby. On Windows it's pretty okay, no real complaints other than it's just a hog.

 

[Pliablemoose]

I'll go as far as to say Apple will be one of the first companies to embrace HTML5.

I don't use OSX, and honestly don't know jack about the subject, hangs head in shame...

I do see those legos all the time on my Android OS's phone though.

 

[mmntech]

Flash has a lot of issues but more and more web developers are using it, especially for magazine style content. I'm seeing some pretty impressive stuff being put together with it. HTML5 is still a long way off becoming the standard and it's not as flexible when it comes to videos. You can't just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. I'm sorry Mr. Jobs but you're an idiot.

 

[Kaido]

Flash has a lot of issues but more and more web developers are using it, especially for magazine style content. I'm seeing some pretty impressive stuff being put together with it. HTML5 is still a long way off becoming the standard and it's not as flexible when it comes to videos. You can't just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. I'm sorry Mr. Jobs but you're an idiot.

That's the thing...everybody's grown up with the Internet for the last 10 years and now we all have ADD, so video is a HUGE feature, and Flash is the ticket. Silverlight will never win. HTML 5 will never replace it. Flash is King, for better or for worse. I don't have a problem building a better system to handle it (you gotta have SOME power to drive 1080p...), but I do have a problem with how buggy it is.

The iPad needs Flash, period.

 

[WelshBloke]

I'll go as far as to say Apple will be one of the first companies to embrace HTML5.

I wish they'd use it instead of 'effin quicktime on their website. :\

 

[KeypoX]

You know, I dont own a Mac nor do I use OSX...is the Flash problem a OSX thing? Ive been running Windows all my life...every OS theyve made, now on Windows 7 x64 and I for the life of me cannot EVER remember having any issues with Flash at any point ever! And this is with multiple PCs in my house right now too...

Im thinking its just a cover-up excuse...Adobe's lazy? Good job revamping that iPad and adding all new features...er...I mean...

Yeah its an OSX thing. Flash is horrible under osx. Adobe blames apple and apple blames adobe. But adobe has specific complaints while apple is claiming adobe is lazy...

I can't believe apple gets away with no flash as much as they do. And i guess it will only get worse in the future.

 

[TheStu]

Yeah its an OSX thing. Flash is horrible under osx. Adobe blames apple and apple blames adobe. But adobe has specific complaints while apple is claiming adobe is lazy...

I can't believe apple gets away with no flash as much as they do. And i guess it will only get worse in the future.

Flash on OS X is an absolute nightmare, and the whispered reason as to why Safari Snow Leopard has sandboxing in 64 bit, part of that is that not all plugins (read: Flash) have 64 bit versions for OS X, but that some plugins (read: Flash) have a tendency to crash and burn and take the entire browser with them.

With regards to Flash on the iPhone/iPad... Hulu would be great, flash games maybe, but a lot of those are made to be used with a mouse and keyboard and would fail in the whole touchscreen transition. But you know what would not be great? Some f*cking banner ad telling me that I am the 1 Gazillionth visitor to a site and am therefore entitled to 3 free iPods and a blowjob. All while blinking and talking and potentially scrolling down the page with me.

You know how on occasion Safari on the iPhone will crash? Are you ready to have that happen all the time? You know how sometimes you will drain the battery on the iPhone really quickly by playing some games or watching some movies? How about everytime you open the freaking browser the battery takes a hit?

Flash is a complete hog on OS X, would be even worse on the iPhone and frankly I am happier without it on mine.

And, the image that Adobe (or someone on their behalf) is waving around with all those screenshots covered in blue legos... trying actually going to those sites. 8 out of the 10 that they used either have iPhone friendly sites or Apps.

 

[ViRGE]

Yeah its an OSX thing. Flash is horrible under osx. Adobe blames apple and apple blames adobe. But adobe has specific complaints while apple is claiming adobe is lazy...

I can't believe apple gets away with no flash as much as they do. And i guess it will only get worse in the future.

Adobe can blame Apple all they want, but the fact of the matter is that the only platform where Flash performs half-way correctly is on x86 Windows. It's Adobe that doesn't have a 64bit version of Flash for Windows, it's Adobe that produces a lousy version of Flash for Linux, etc. Adobe can't be trusted to develop a properly working version of Flash for any platform that isn't x86 Windows.

And Apple can get away with no Flash because they don't need it in the long run. Very few people actually want Flash for graphics; most people want it for streaming video. With HTML5 you don't need Flash to do that, you can just embed the same H.264 encoded video file inside a page using the <Video> tag, which is basically the same way that YouTube is made available to the iPhone. We only use Flash right now because it was the only practical way to deliver streaming video at the time, but this is no longer the case.

Most users would best be served not by having Flash on the iPad, but by having more video services (e.g. Hulu) serve up their existing video files via HTML5.

 

[0roo0roo]

flash isn 't so much of an issue now that its acceled by my gpu. but still i wouldn't miss it if it went away.
flash almost never adds anything positive to a website. the worst sites are basically all flash.

 

[QueBert]

Yeah its an OSX thing. Flash is horrible under osx. Adobe blames apple and apple blames adobe. But adobe has specific complaints while apple is claiming adobe is lazy...

I can't believe apple gets away with no flash as much as they do. And i guess it will only get worse in the future.

Ummm, Adobe is lazy, Vista 674 bit is how old? And Adobe is still no where near releasing a 64 bit version of the Flash plugin. Seeing it's their bread and butter you'd think they'd be putting 110% effort into developing it. Now I could be wrong, maybe Adobe is days away from releasing it, but I somehow doubt it. And even if they are, it's took them how many years to get to this point? Adobe is the laziest company in the world, they rarely patch shit and that goes for all of their software. They put most of their efforts into releasing a new version of the CS suites every year or so. It wouldn't matter if Apple wanted Flash on the iPhone more than anything. Adobe wouldn't be able to deliver it.
as others have said, it would be nice to have, but I'd rather have my iPhone work well. With Flash it won't do that, and the only people to blame for that would be Adobe.

 

[Rottie]

can Apple to make something like Apple Flash compitable to work with OSX?

 

[ViRGE]

can Apple to make something like Apple Flash compitable to work with OSX?

I'm not quite sure I get the question. Can Apple make their own version of Flash? Not without a lot of reverse engineering, and I think they'd ultimately run afoul of Adobe's patents.

One way or another Apple is reliant on Adobe to fix whatever ails Flash on Apple platforms.

 

[miniMUNCH]

Yeah, Apple has got to be kinda careful here in my opinion... Google is not the sort of company you start a tech war with. The whole Bing default search engine on the iPhone thing and not approving Google's apps for the iPhone is dangerous.

If Google puts the iPhone squarely in their cross hairs they may be able to kill it with their own product offerings and/or by pushing up the quality of competing products (Via HTML 5 for instance)... but the Nexus One / Android is really not in the ballpark right now. But I really don't think Google is really interested in killing the iPhone per se, but interested in pushing the widespread use of their (google's) technology and services. If Apple is going to block Google's Apps and services from the iPhone/iPad then Google will try to kill the iPhone and iPad... they'll do this by pushing HTML 5 really hard.

HTML 5 is going to seriously challenge Apple's strangle hold on the iPhone app market anyways... if Apple tries to old on too tight to the App space on the iPhone they are in trouble because HTML 5 will likely deliver much better apps and Android, Blackberry, and Palm Web OS phones are going to cater heavily to HTML 5, as will all of other tablet makers, as will web apps for desktops (ala Google Docs, Evernote, Mint.com, etc.). What I'm saying is the tighter Apple squeezes on iPhone/iPad app restrictions and app market control... the faster they are going to level the playing field via more dev's focusing harder on HTML 5 and the like.

On a somewhat related note:

The other thing Apple need to do is get the iPhone on Verizon's network, pronto. I don't know about all over the various major cities throughout the US but, in the Denver area the AT&T is horrible. I have huge problems with my AT&T service here in Denver... I can't receive or make calls on a regular basis even though I, apparently, have good signal, i get dropped calls call the time (like 1 in 5 calls drop), sometimes I don't get voicemail or notification of voicemail for hours or days after a VM was left, etc...

I have heard stories from folks in other cities as well... Apple needs the iPhone on Verizon because AT&T is hurting Apple right now, IMO.

Of course i could be totally, totally wrong here but those are my views

 

[Pliablemoose]

those are my views

I dunno about the app VS Flash VS HTML 5, the app store for Android is clogged with moronic apps I'd rather see web based, so I wouldn't have to wade through the trash.

Google, meh, I think the whole industry is going to get rocked on it's heels if someone caves and offers 3G VOIP on a platform and doesn't require a voice plan on their devices. We shall see.

On the Verizon issue, I just don't know, were it my call they'd release a Verizon phone ASAP, CDMA for now, LTE when it rolls out. They'd see an immediate revenue spike. They could also sell the CDMA iPhone in Korea to recoup the expense of a new phone.

 

[bearxor]

The iPad internet pricing, coupled with the direct attacks Verizon made on the iPhone during the Droid advertising campaign, have made it quite clear to me that Verizon isn't going to be seeing an iPhone anytime soon.

As for Flash, it's terrible. OS X and Linux especially. Even Windows is bad and Adobe is hiding it by shifting the processing off to the graphics card. Unfortunately, Flash is the way of the world right now and HTML5 is probably 10 years away from being a dominant standard.

Oh well. I'm kind of split on the whole Flash. I'd like it, but I've never missed it. Until Adobe shows me that they can properly code something that runs efficiently I won't try to defend them.

A lot of you more recent switchers won't remember this but some old-time Mac people will. Remember how bad Flash was on anything before 10.4? I had a Dual 1.25ghz PPC G4 running 10.3 and I could have a Youtube video playing in Safari as the only Application open, click on the Desktop to shift the focus from Safari to Finder and the video would stop playing. Click back in Safari and plays fine. Terrible. Its not gotten a whole lot better since then either.

As for the App store, remember that it was made because there was such a huge backlash against Web Apps. iPhone OS 1 was all about Web Apps. Granted the App Store has probably made Apple a shitload of money and it will probably be around forever, especially for games, but I don't think you'll really see Apple try to stop Web Apps since they were the first to (try to) embrace them.