Joe Biden talks about the election and the future of the party

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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,593
7,653
136
The believer hires the achievers and sets their goals.
Can't achieve what Wall Street paid you not to believe in.

Far as I see it Hillary spoke to her base, and never to middle America. Never connected to rural poor.
People will follow their wallets, and Trump gave them that hope for change.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,721
6,201
126
We've faced this before though, this is neither the best nor worst of times. Imagine being forced to the back of the bus. Being denied medical treatment. Not evil glances but a neck in a noose. This was the world that MLK knew. He was a natural leader who could have called to burn the white establishment. He caused fear but not by threat of violence but by being something too many couldn't comprehend, a person of just principle. A nation based on respect and equality. An inclusive society, not just blacks but every human. It was his dream and he acted on it. He did not stand on the sidelines, he didn't call for revenge. He wanted understanding between all peoples.

People complain about Trump and some of his supporters. He's nothing compared to George Wallace and the Klan in their hanging days.

Hate is embraced by all sides and retaliation is disguised as justice. This is what I object to.

A simple question for you. When the world is an eye for an eye, do we embrace or resist it? Do we try to understand and embrace all peoples or divide them and pronounce them as abhorrent although we have no knowledge of more than a handful of people and generalizations?

What seems good to you?
I understand this. But we live in a system that was designed to protect the innocent from the tyranny of the majority that has been turned on its head with the minority thwarting the will of the majority at every turn, an insane minority, in my opinion, that has no decent respects for the rights of men. I believe we have elected a dangerous sociopath who poses a serious threat to the nation. Am I supposed to look the other way?

To be, or not to be--that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And by opposing end them. To die, to sleep--
No more--and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to. 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep--
To sleep--perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th' unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprise of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry
And lose the name of action. -- Soft you now,
The fair Ophelia! -- Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remembered.


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...........

I believe we have a right to self defense, to right the wrongs of injustice, but the problem is knowing what is really right or really just. Everybody thinks they do and everybody can't be right.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,266
126
I understand this. But we live in a system that was designed to protect the innocent from the tyranny of the majority that has been turned on its head with the minority thwarting the will of the majority at every turn, an insane minority, in my opinion, that has no decent respects for the rights of men. I believe we have elected a dangerous sociopath who poses a serious threat to the nation. Am I supposed to look the other way?

To be, or not to be--that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And by opposing end them. To die, to sleep--
No more--and by a sleep to say we end
The heartache, and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to. 'Tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep--
To sleep--perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub,
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause. There's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th' oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely
The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th' unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovered country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience does make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprise of great pitch and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry
And lose the name of action. -- Soft you now,
The fair Ophelia! -- Nymph, in thy orisons
Be all my sins remembered.


When in the Course of human events it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...........

I believe we have a right to self defense, to right the wrongs of injustice, but the problem is knowing what is really right or really just. Everybody thinks they do and everybody can't be right.

The system and our collective foolishness led to this situation and we agree that the situation isn't right. Question is "What next?". Looking around many people have not overcome themselves sufficiently to even consider reformation. That they might not have validation of themselves is too much, yet here we are. Someone must have supported this state of mess.

We've identified a problem. What can be done about it and I don't mean just Trump (not excluding him either) but the failure to recognize how things work holistically and apply corrections?

To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep.

What should we do?
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
Fundamentally the problem for the Democrats is that with globalization taking jobs away, they have lost their old labor clout. Labor kept them grounded and practical. Most people really don't care about the culture wars, and Democrats are obsessed with culture war.

Democrats are obsessed with culture war because their big donors are obsessed with culture war. The big donors are so rich that they really don't care how government taxes. The Democrats aren't drastically different from the GOP on taxes, and they can live with what the Democrats set, but the Democrats are pretty different on culture war. Notice how Hillary said her "deplorables" comment at a LGBT fundraiser? The environment she was in played a role in her saying what she said, and taking on the attitude she did. John Edwards is said to have been uncomfortable with having to deal with the gay donors of the D party, so there is something going on at the top levels which is warping perception. Most of the country, indeed the world, is culturally conservative, and yet the D party is most militant on cultural liberalism.

Future of the party doesn't look good. No promising talent. No timeline for promising talent to rise up. Earliest we can see new talent would be 2022, and by then I expect the GOP to have cemented advantage through immigration restrictions and voter restrictions.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,710
25,047
136
Most people really don't care about the culture wars, and Democrats are obsessed with culture war.

What a load of BS. The GOP has been using the culture war issues for decades to drive turnout and convince people to vote against their economic interests. Reproductive rights and for the last 8 years same sex marriage have been their rallying points. Many of the state elections to pass same sex marriage bans were strategically scheduled to occur in elections that would benefit from increased conservative turnout.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
What a load of BS. The GOP has been using the culture war issues for decades to drive turnout and convince people to vote against their economic interests. Reproductive rights and for the last 8 years same sex marriage have been their rallying points. Many of the state elections to pass same sex marriage bans were strategically scheduled to occur in elections that would benefit from increased conservative turnout.

The GOP is simply responding to incentives. THis gets them votes. Voters are motivated by these issues. In a democracy, this is how things work.

These issues occurred because of changes that were largely driven by courts. As in, the default had been no abortion, no gay marriage, etc.

Question is, why are Democrats going against popular wishes, and incentives? Big money donors is why.
 

brycejones

Lifer
Oct 18, 2005
26,710
25,047
136
The GOP is simply responding to incentives. THis gets them votes. Voters are motivated by these issues. In a democracy, this is how things work.

These issues occurred because of changes that were largely driven by courts. As in, the default had been no abortion, no gay marriage, etc.

Question is, why are Democrats going against popular wishes, and incentives? Big money donors is why.

They aren't going against popular wishes. Access to abortion has pretty broad support but drives turnout to high levels for a chunk of voters who vote for the GOP almost exclusively.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
They aren't going against popular wishes. Access to abortion has pretty broad support but drives turnout to high levels for a chunk of voters who vote for the GOP almost exclusively.

That is because it was legalized through the courts, not by legislative debate.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Fundamentally the problem for the Democrats is that with globalization taking jobs away, they have lost their old labor clout. Labor kept them grounded and practical. Most people really don't care about the culture wars, and Democrats are obsessed with culture war.

LGBTQ rights are perhaps the final frontier of civil rights. Conservatives don't need to like them to acknowledge that they deserve equal rights. That's if one applies the principles of egalitarian democracy & common decency. Reference N Carolina to see the opposite of that.

Democrats are obsessed with culture war because their big donors are obsessed with culture war. The big donors are so rich that they really don't care how government taxes. The Democrats aren't drastically different from the GOP on taxes, and they can live with what the Democrats set, but the Democrats are pretty different on culture war. Notice how Hillary said her "deplorables" comment at a LGBT fundraiser? The environment she was in played a role in her saying what she said, and taking on the attitude she did. John Edwards is said to have been uncomfortable with having to deal with the gay donors of the D party, so there is something going on at the top levels which is warping perception. Most of the country, indeed the world, is culturally conservative, and yet the D party is most militant on cultural liberalism.

Nice innuendo wrt "the gay agenda". & Dem donors. The cultural liberalism you reference is just another way to say personal freedom & mutual respect.

Future of the party doesn't look good. No promising talent. No timeline for promising talent to rise up. Earliest we can see new talent would be 2022, and by then I expect the GOP to have cemented advantage through immigration restrictions and voter restrictions.

And more tearing down of the Democrats. We'll be here after Trump & the Repubs screw things up, again-

They can put Goldman Sachs back in charge of the Treasury Department, but we are still here. They can try to dismantle the EPA, but we are still here. They can put a fox in charge of every hen house—they can put the Joker, the Riddler, and the Penguin in charge of Gotham City—but we are still here, and we’re not going anywhere.

“There’s something that we know that Donald Trump and Stephen Bannon want us to forget,” he told the folks in Silver Spring. “America is a good country. We are not a racist country. We are not an alt-right country. ... The alt-right is alt-wrong, but the USA is all right.”

https://newrepublic.com/article/139092/jamie-raskin-fierce-funny-message-dispirited-democrats
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
72,721
6,201
126
The system and our collective foolishness led to this situation and we agree that the situation isn't right. Question is "What next?". Looking around many people have not overcome themselves sufficiently to even consider reformation. That they might not have validation of themselves is too much, yet here we are. Someone must have supported this state of mess.

We've identified a problem. What can be done about it and I don't mean just Trump (not excluding him either) but the failure to recognize how things work holistically and apply corrections?

To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis Nobler in the mind to suffer
The Slings and Arrows of outrageous Fortune,
Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep.

What should we do?
You are asking me for the solution too an ancient human dilemma. How can one ascribe with certainty the guilt or innocence of others who himself or herself isn't free of sin. What is projection and what is real. How can anybody know his or her motivation who does not know his or her self. What is done in the name of the one ring and what is a just war.

My friend, LunarRay told me he sent a good thousand emails to various democratic orgs around the states warning them they were not addressing the real issues and that Trump was going to win. He was particularly focused on the states Hillary lost that gave the victory to Trump and they shined him on saying who are you and we have everything under control. He told me they were fools and idiots who couldn't see a thing. My point is the unlike me who speaks here to a few people, he made a huge personal effort, in vane, mind you, in vane, but way more than I did.

As I see it, a machine remains a machine until such time as it breaks or a light goes on. The only person who has a switch if the individual. Only you can prevent forest fires, only you can light your inner being. We wonder about in a dark world had hear very very few voices who speak with love. Only you can shine your inner light. Only you can be in the world but not of it.

For me, there is no answer, but I have had a tiny glimpse of a place where there are no questions. Let that which is in heaven manifest on Earth. Seek to be such a window as best you can. You are not alone and you are loved.
 
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