Joe Lieberman wants to bomb Iran

[umbrella39]

I can't see us being foolish enough to bomb Iran despite what Lieberman said.

 

[dmcowen674]

Good thing this Democrat wing nut has no chance of President or VP.

Unless Iran poses an iminent threat to the U.S. leave the nuts alone and not a lie like with Saddam.

 

[Socio]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: Socio

Originally posted by: Aimster
He lacks knowledge on the consequences of bombing Iran. He makes it sound like the U.S can just bomb Iran and sit back the next day and relax.

Not surprised. No politician has shown they now squat when it comes to foreign nations.

EX: Bush - Iraq

Technically it is really not a bad idea but you would not bomb one day and sit back you would have to sink their navy, bomb and rain missiles until they are to crippled to retaliate.

You would leave their military is such a mess it would take 10 years or more to rebuild it.
In the meantime Afghanistan would get resolved, Iraq would be resolved and be rebuilding. Israel, Palestine, Syria, and Lebanon would finally reach peace agreements and be at peace all because the pot stirring, meddlesome, instigators of Iran would be neutered.

Sarcasm? Iran's involvement is through terrorism, its official military is not that important in the offensive in Iraq and Afghanistan. You could take out its military, leave its leadership, and still have plenty of arms shipments crossing the border.

Not to mention, any offensive should be directed at the destruction of the nuclear facilities. A strike on the military alone would be useless.

Yes their, military installations, nuclear facilities, terrorist training camps, as well as munitions and bomb/missile/rocket factories would have to be leveled leaving them with just rocks to throw so they are no threat to anyone for a very long time and can no longer supply anyone with munitions, bombs, rockets, or missiles.

 

[imported_Shivetya]

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
nullArticle here

I can see why he might think this, however I don't see it doing more than aggravating an already difficult situation.

because any intelligent and logically thinking person would keep that option on the table and make sure Iran knows it.

why should Iran behave? They got the Brits to cave, its only time before they can work the press and politics to get Americans to cave. Then its open season for whatever they want to do...

once they get the bomb its over.

 

[azazyel]

Originally posted by: Shivetya

Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
nullArticle here

I can see why he might think this, however I don't see it doing more than aggravating an already difficult situation.

because any intelligent and logically thinking person would keep that option on the table and make sure Iran knows it.

why should Iran behave? They got the Brits to cave, its only time before they can work the press and politics to get Americans to cave. Then its open season for whatever they want to do...

once they get the bomb its over.

Yeah, imagine if they got a hold of chemical weapons! OMG they'd just give them to anyone! Jeez, what did your teddybear tell you that while comforting you underneath your bed?

 

[azazyel]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: wetech

Originally posted by: Aimster
Islam doesn't say anything about 72 virgins when you die.

I never said it did. But there's a bunch of crackpots who seem to think it does.

Other crackpots think they can do anything because someone was nailed to some planks centuries ago.

I actually wonder what these neo-con Xians put more effort into, getting rich or figuring out how to get a camel through an eye of a needle? I bet there's a big blender hidden somewhere in Texas.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: wetech

Originally posted by: Aimster
Islam doesn't say anything about 72 virgins when you die.

I never said it did. But there's a bunch of crackpots who seem to think it does.

bunch? the only people who believe it are probably a hundred or so brainwashed Palestinians

If you had said that there is no mention in the Koran, you'd be correct. However, you wrote "Islam doesnt say anything about 72 virgins when you die," so, as usual, you are wrong.

There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who believe that 70 or 72 virgins await them in paradise - depending, of course, on the version and translation of the Hadiths preached in their mosques...

Two points need to be noted. First, there is no mention anywhere in the Koran of the actual number of virgins available in paradise, and second, the dark-eyed damsels are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs. It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified: in a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 CE [common era*]) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah [Prophet Muhammad], chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687). The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]'."

hundreds of millions??

HAHAHAHAHA

another clueless post by mr.palehorse.

 

[azazyel]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: wetech

Originally posted by: Aimster
Islam doesn't say anything about 72 virgins when you die.

I never said it did. But there's a bunch of crackpots who seem to think it does.

bunch? the only people who believe it are probably a hundred or so brainwashed Palestinians

If you had said that there is no mention in the Koran, you'd be correct. However, you wrote "Islam doesnt say anything about 72 virgins when you die," so, as usual, you are wrong.

There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who believe that 70 or 72 virgins await them in paradise - depending, of course, on the version and translation of the Hadiths preached in their mosques...

Two points need to be noted. First, there is no mention anywhere in the Koran of the actual number of virgins available in paradise, and second, the dark-eyed damsels are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs. It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified: in a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 CE [common era*]) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah [Prophet Muhammad], chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687). The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]'."

hundreds of millions??

HAHAHAHAHA

another clueless post by mr.palehorse.

I also liked the part where it's the 'smallest reward'. Personally 72 wives seems more like a punishment to me.


Q: What's the definition of polygamy?
A: One wife too many.


Q: What's the definition of marriage?
A: See definition of polygamy

 

[Aimster]

The correct translation is "angels". Not virgins.

Palestinians and other fanatical Arab groups who have an agenda brainwash their children to think "virgins".

Since there are only 200 million or so Arabs in the world ... and since 99% of the people who like to believe the translation is "virgin" are Arab, Mr.Paleman is basically saying the majority of Arabs think the translation is "virgin" and not "angel".

Mr.Paleman claims to be educated in Islam. His education comes from websites such as prophetofdoom.com. Unless he can prove otherwise, I bet my savings on it.

 

[azazyel]

Originally posted by: Aimster
The correct translation is "angels". Not virgins.

Palestinians and other fanatical Arab groups who have an agenda brainwash their children to think "virgins".

Since there are only 200 million or so Arabs in the world ... and since 99% of the people who like to believe the translation is "virgin" are Arab, Mr.Paleman is basically saying the majority of Arabs think the translation is "virgin" and not "angel".

Mr.Paleman claims to be educated in Islam. His education comes from websites such as prophetofdoom.com. Unless he can prove otherwise, I bet my savings on it.

I'd put my money on Jihadwatch.com.

 

[Drift3r]

He is out of touch with reality.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: wetech

Originally posted by: Aimster
Islam doesn't say anything about 72 virgins when you die.

I never said it did. But there's a bunch of crackpots who seem to think it does.

bunch? the only people who believe it are probably a hundred or so brainwashed Palestinians

If you had said that there is no mention in the Koran, you'd be correct. However, you wrote "Islam doesnt say anything about 72 virgins when you die," so, as usual, you are wrong.

There are hundreds of millions of Muslims who believe that 70 or 72 virgins await them in paradise - depending, of course, on the version and translation of the Hadiths preached in their mosques...

Two points need to be noted. First, there is no mention anywhere in the Koran of the actual number of virgins available in paradise, and second, the dark-eyed damsels are available for all Muslims, not just martyrs. It is in the Islamic Traditions that we find the 72 virgins in heaven specified: in a Hadith (Islamic Tradition) collected by Al-Tirmidhi (died 892 CE [common era*]) in the Book of Sunan (volume IV, chapters on The Features of Paradise as described by the Messenger of Allah [Prophet Muhammad], chapter 21, About the Smallest Reward for the People of Paradise, (Hadith 2687). The same hadith is also quoted by Ibn Kathir (died 1373 CE ) in his Koranic commentary (Tafsir) of Surah Al-Rahman (55), verse 72: "The Prophet Muhammad was heard saying: 'The smallest reward for the people of paradise is an abode where there are 80,000 servants and 72 wives, over which stands a dome decorated with pearls, aquamarine, and ruby, as wide as the distance from Al-Jabiyyah [a Damascus suburb] to Sana'a [Yemen]'."

hundreds of millions??

HAHAHAHAHA

another clueless post by mr.palehorse.

so you deny being wrong.. again? no surprise...

You straight-up said "Islam doesnt say anything about 72 virgins" Then, when proven wrong, you went on to deny that most muslims preach and/or study the Hadiths, including the Hadith wherein Mohammad specifically mentions the 72 virgins that await all faithful Muslims in paradise?!

You haven't the slightest clue what you are talking about when it comes to Islam, or the ME in general. You somehow believe your ancestry entitles you to some sort of innate knowledge on the subjects, but the reality is that you know next to nothing about the religion of Islam.

you are completely and utterly full of sh*t, you know that?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster
The correct translation is "angels". Not virgins.

The context that it was used tells us otherwise; as do most Imams.

Palestinians and other fanatical Arab groups who have an agenda brainwash their children to think "virgins".

actually, the majority of the translations, written in most modern languages, translate the word as "virgins."

Since there are only 200 million or so Arabs in the world ... and since 99% of the people who like to believe the translation is "virgin" are Arab, Mr.Paleman is basically saying the majority of Arabs think the translation is "virgin" and not "angel".

I never mentioned the word "arabs," and it's nice to see you making up statistics again Aimster! Good work!

I am actually referring to a majority of the roughly 1.5 billion Muslims throughout the entire world who are taught the lessons of Mohammed found only in the Hadiths; including the Hadith in question that specifically mentions the 72 virgins.

Mr.Paleman claims to be educated in Islam. His education comes from websites such as prophetofdoom.com. Unless he can prove otherwise, I bet my savings on it.

You'd lose that bet. I've probably written more on the subject than you'll probably ever read; and, my sources include some of the most learned scholars in the world...

Face it Aimster, you don't know anything about Islam. Send me a PM if you'd like me to make a list of decent resources for you... none of which are web-based. I'm always willing to help others learn something new!

 

[Aimster]

I don't think anyone reads what you post about Islam.

WHY?

Because you get your sources off random websites on the Internet and you claim you know about Islam./

I don't know anything about Islam? OK. You know it all because you read websites. You win. Congrats.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster
I don't think anyone reads what you post about Islam.

WHY?

Because you get your sources off random websites on the Internet and you claim you know about Islam./

I don't know anything about Islam? OK. You know it all because you read websites. You win. Congrats.

Aimster... oh Aimster... what are we going to do with you!?

I've studied Islam and the ME for years. I've also spent a good deal of time in the ME, Central Asia, and North Africa. I am currently finishing up another degree that focuses on terrorism studies, and I'm even in a language program learning Arabic. I've never spent more than a second at any of the ridiculous internet sites you listed, and I've certainly never drawn research data from any of them.

Your statement that "Islam doesnt say anything about virgins" was blatantly false. Your follow-up statement that only a small number of brainwashed Palestinians may believe it was also blatantly false.

Your final proclamation that the word actually translates to "angels," rather than "virgins," is certainly debatable - but the context in which it was used, most modern translations, and the reality of the number of Muslims who believe in those virgins, tells us otherwise.

I also think you'd be surprised by the number of people on here who recognize my knowledge of Islam to be greater than your own... but don't let that be the focus of this debate. Instead, just admit that you were wrong in this case, and we can move on. Sound good?

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster
I don't think anyone reads what you post about Islam.

WHY?

Because you get your sources off random websites on the Internet and you claim you know about Islam./

I don't know anything about Islam? OK. You know it all because you read websites. You win. Congrats.

Aimster... oh Aimster... what are we going to do with you!?

Recognize a traitor. Reality finds itself re-written for the whim, which makes argument pointless. He shall defend the faith, as it kills people around the globe, and it's our duty to stop it and its supporters.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster
I don't think anyone reads what you post about Islam.

WHY?

Because you get your sources off random websites on the Internet and you claim you know about Islam./

I don't know anything about Islam? OK. You know it all because you read websites. You win. Congrats.

Aimster... oh Aimster... what are we going to do with you!?

Recognize a traitor. Reality finds itself re-written for the whim, which makes argument pointless. He shall defend the faith, as it kills people around the globe, and it's our duty to stop it and its supporters.

So stop me.

You going to kill me?

 

[Aimster]

You posted a quote about the 72 virgins that when you type it on google brings up websites that are known for being anti-Islam.

Where did you get that quote? Why did you have to look it up if you "knew"?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster
I don't think anyone reads what you post about Islam.

WHY?

Because you get your sources off random websites on the Internet and you claim you know about Islam./

I don't know anything about Islam? OK. You know it all because you read websites. You win. Congrats.

Aimster... oh Aimster... what are we going to do with you!?

Recognize a traitor. Reality finds itself re-written for the whim, which makes argument pointless. He shall defend the faith, as it kills people around the globe, and it's our duty to stop it and its supporters.

Jaskalas, I cannot agree with your gross exaggerations. While I do agree that we need to continue taking this fight to our enemies, we really need to do so while simultaneously embracing the overwhelming majority of Muslims who are not violent extremists. Unlike you, I recognize the need to differentiate between the fanatical extremists and the majority of Muslims who are peaceful.

The problem we face is not Islam; rather, it's the small percentage of extremists who are making the entire Muslim world look bad. The sooner we fix our PR to reflect this truth, the sooner we will see that large majority get behind our efforts and actually help us in the GWOT.

So, for once, and with respect, I have to disagree with you J. I honestly know how and why you feel the way you do - it comes from being frustrated. You are frustrated with what seems like silent support by the allegedly peaceful Muslim majority. However, since I have been able to see the problem up close, and live amongst them, I have come to recognize that the fault for their inaction rests partially on our own shoulders. This administration has failed miserably in the PR campaigns necessary to "win the hearts and minds" of the world.

The result is that they have failed to form a proper coalition involving entire nations full of potential supporters, and, most importantly, they've failed to motivate the peaceful majority of Muslims to action against the elements among them that are ruining the party for everyone else!

J, don't let that frustration consume you. Instead, try to focus on coming up with new ways to reach out to the Muslim population and motivate them to action against some of their own.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster
You posted a quote about the 72 virgins that when you type it on google brings up websites that are known for being anti-Islam.

Where did you get that quote? Why did you have to look it up if you "knew"?

The text I quoted was taken from the first place I found - using Google - that describes the specific Hadith in question.

Everything in the section of text that I quoted is factual - regarding Hadith 2687 - and those facts prove each of your statements to be blatantly false.

Why must you continue to attack me, rather than the issue itself?

Let me lay the challenge out for you. Please answer honestly:

1) Are you denying that a large number (tens or hundreds of millions) of the world's Muslims believe that 72 virgins await them in paradise? If so, based on what evidence?

2) Are you denying that most modern translations of the Hadith in question use the word "virgins"? If so, based on what evidence?

thanks ahead of time.

 

[poohbear]

I am actually referring to a majority of the roughly 1.5 billion Muslims throughout the entire world who are taught the lessons of Mohammed found only in the Hadiths; including the Hadith in question that specifically mentions the 72 virgins.

hello, im muslim, and i've never been taught this hadith about 72 virgins in my life. Nor have any of my family or any of my friends.

If you study islam so much why dont you point out there are varying degrees of authenticity among hadiths & that some hadiths even contradict the Quran? the 40 famous & most authentic hadiths of mohamad certainly dont mention anything about 72 virgins.

You're gravely mistaken to say we're taught this because it simply isnt true.

go to any mosque lecture, any book on sunni islam, and you won't find any mention of this. If i quote every outdated nonsensical thing catholics have believed in the past (infantile damnation, women having no souls, bathing is a sin as decreed by a pope in the 12th century, excorcism, condoning racism & slavery) and emphasized those as basic tenets that are taught to cathlics, i would be out and out lying. those beliefs DID exist in christianity at one point, but it would be absurd to say that they're taught to christians regularly.

stop spreading hate, most muslims are peaceful people like you and me, dont try to demonize them.

 

[Aimster]

You know how many translations there are? how many books there are? there are hundreds of thousands of books. Everyone reads their own book and follows their own beliefs.

I highly doubt that this man you posted has a strong following of supporters for his work. His work is ancient crap. Man is long dead.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: poohbear

I am actually referring to a majority of the roughly 1.5 billion Muslims throughout the entire world who are taught the lessons of Mohammed found only in the Hadiths; including the Hadith in question that specifically mentions the 72 virgins.

hello, im muslim, and i've never been taught this hadith about 72 virgins in my life. Nor have any of my family or any of my friends.

If you study islam so much why dont you point out there are varying degrees of authenticity among hadiths & that some hadiths even contradict the Quran? the 40 famous & most authentic hadiths of mohamad certainly dont mention anything about 72 virgins.

You're gravely mistaken to say we're taught this because it simply isnt true.

go to any mosque lecture, any book on sunni islam, and you won't find any mention of this. If i quote every outdated nonsensical thing catholics have believed in the past (infantile damnation, women having no souls, bathing is a sin as decreed by a pope in the 12th century, excorcism, condoning racism & slavery) and emphasized those as basic tenets that are taught to cathlics, i would be out and out lying. those beliefs DID exist in christianity at one point, but it would be absurd to say that they're taught to christians regularly.

The problem one encounters, when trying to debate issues like this with members of a specific Muslim sect, is that said members tend to only have experience with the subjects taught at their own mosques, or within their own sect. They tend to have no clue about what the rest of Islam is about because the religion itself is plagued by division between the sects/tribes/nations/villages/etc.

Come back to me once you've traveled throughout the Muslim world, and once you've studied the many different sects, as an outsider. You might then know wtf you're talking about.

stop spreading hate, most muslims are peaceful people like you and me, dont try to demonize them.

Hey genius, go read my post two up from your own. (the one I directed at Jaskalas). Then, once you've read it and realize that your accusations are wrong, stick them somewhere it doesnt shine... ok? good.

 

[Aimster]

Have you traveled throughout the Muslim world? No you haven't.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster
You know how many translations there are? how many books there are? there are hundreds of thousands of books. Everyone reads their own book and follows their own beliefs.

I highly doubt that this man you posted has a strong following of supporters for his work. His work is ancient crap. Man is long dead.

Once again, you amaze me with your deep analytical abilities and consistent use of facts.

The age of a Hadith has no baring on its prevalence throughout the Muslim world. After all, most modern religious teachings are based on "ancient crap" written by men who are "long dead."

:roll: