Joe Lieberman wants to bomb Iran

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Have you traveled throughout the Muslim world? No you haven't.

My travels and deployments have taken me throughout much of it, yes. And during my travels, I have become good friends with many intelligent and well-educated Muslims; including several Imams and professors at various universities throughout what you may recognize as "the Muslim world."

next...

 

[Aimster]

lol you claim to be such an expert at Islam..

you will even say all other Muslims on this board are wrong as you just did above.

You are hilarious. Like I said your information is wrong. You can take the word of people who know or believe your websites.

For example.. I am from Iran and I know for a fact even the most fanatical wacko Iranians don't believe in no virgin heaven. In your eyes Iran is a fanatical Islamic country.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster
Have you traveled throughout the Muslim world? No you haven't.

My travels and deployments have taken me throughout much of it, yes. And during my travels, I have become good friends with many intelligent and well-educated Muslims; including several Imams and professors at various universities throughout what you may recognize as "the Muslim world."

next...

& those good "friends" of yours talked about virgin heaven, huh?


"hey palehorse if I kill you I get 72 virgins. Bend over so I can cap your ass and get my virgins already"/

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster
lol you claim to be such an expert at Islam..

I never claim "expertise" in anything...

you will even say all other Muslims on this board are wrong as you just did above.

I will say you are wrong when you are wrong.

You are hilarious. Like I said your information is wrong. You can take the word of people who know or believe your websites.

For the last time, I do not use websites as sources for my research or beliefs.

I'd be very interested in seeing what empirical data you have collected to reflect the number of Muslims who believe in the Hadith describing the virgins. Have you yourself traveled throughout "the Muslim world"? If so, did you visit areas comprised of people belonging to sects other than your own?

For example.. I am from Iran and I know for a fact even the most fanatical wacko Iranians don't believe in no virgin heaven. In your eyes Iran is a fanatical Islamic country.

I've never said that Iran is "a fanatical Islamic country." You have a ridiculous tendency to paint everyone who disagrees with you with the same extreme brush.

In fact, I know the majority of the people of Iran are very pro-US, and would like to see their own government changed dramatically. However, it's not the people of Iran who are controlling Iran's armies and Quds Force, and it's not the people who are threatening other nations throughout the region, and it's not the people who are defying the entire UN - it is their leadership.

Sadly though, the Iranian people may have to pay a heavy price for the mistakes of their leaders - Just as Americans may have a pay a price for the mistakes our leaders have made.

You need to stop assuming everyone who disagrees with you is some sort of ignorant fool. That's the first step...

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: poohbear

I am actually referring to a majority of the roughly 1.5 billion Muslims throughout the entire world who are taught the lessons of Mohammed found only in the Hadiths; including the Hadith in question that specifically mentions the 72 virgins.

hello, im muslim, and i've never been taught this hadith about 72 virgins in my life. Nor have any of my family or any of my friends.

If you study islam so much why dont you point out there are varying degrees of authenticity among hadiths & that some hadiths even contradict the Quran? the 40 famous & most authentic hadiths of mohamad certainly dont mention anything about 72 virgins.

You're gravely mistaken to say we're taught this because it simply isnt true.

go to any mosque lecture, any book on sunni islam, and you won't find any mention of this. If i quote every outdated nonsensical thing catholics have believed in the past (infantile damnation, women having no souls, bathing is a sin as decreed by a pope in the 12th century, excorcism, condoning racism & slavery) and emphasized those as basic tenets that are taught to cathlics, i would be out and out lying. those beliefs DID exist in christianity at one point, but it would be absurd to say that they're taught to christians regularly.

stop spreading hate, most muslims are peaceful people like you and me, dont try to demonize them.

FTW and total ownage, thank you for that clarity!

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster
Have you traveled throughout the Muslim world? No you haven't.

My travels and deployments have taken me throughout much of it, yes. And during my travels, I have become good friends with many intelligent and well-educated Muslims; including several Imams and professors at various universities throughout what you may recognize as "the Muslim world."

next...

& those good "friends" of yours talked about virgin heaven, huh?


"hey palehorse if I kill you I get 72 virgins. Bend over so I can cap your ass and get my virgins already"/

Not once have I connected suicide murder with the virgins. In fact, most muslims who do believe in the virgins simply expect them whenever they die and enter paradise after leading a decent and faithful life.

Not once have I stated that most Muslims believe in being a suicidal martyr of some sort. This is an example of you reading into what someone is saying.

Either that, or you're simply illiterate...

 

[Aimster]

That is where you are mistaken.

What you are suggesting is that :Islam says that if a Muslim kills himself and takes along a non-Muslim with him that he will get 72 virgins in heaven: That is simply not true. If that were the case, why are the minorities in all the Muslim countries alive? Nobody can protect minorities from a wave of hundreds of millions of Muslims who believe in a virgin heaven.

I pointed out Iran because they are a fanatical wacko Islamic country. How could you deny otherwise? If they are not then the rest of the Muslim world is perfect. Except for Saudi Arabia.
Iran has a "suicide" squad to defend Iran. That suicide squad is not doing suicide to get "virgins".

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster
I don't think anyone reads what you post about Islam.

WHY?

Because you get your sources off random websites on the Internet and you claim you know about Islam./

I don't know anything about Islam? OK. You know it all because you read websites. You win. Congrats.

Aimster... oh Aimster... what are we going to do with you!?

Recognize a traitor. Reality finds itself re-written for the whim, which makes argument pointless. He shall defend the faith, as it kills people around the globe, and it's our duty to stop it and its supporters.

Jaskalas, I cannot agree with your gross exaggerations. While I do agree that we need to continue taking this fight to our enemies, we really need to do so while simultaneously embracing the overwhelming majority of Muslims who are not violent extremists. Unlike you, I recognize the need to differentiate between the fanatical extremists and the majority of Muslims who are peaceful.

The problem we face is not Islam; rather, it's the small percentage of extremists who are making the entire Muslim world look bad. The sooner we fix our PR to reflect this truth, the sooner we will see that large majority get behind our efforts and actually help us in the GWOT.

So, for once, and with respect, I have to disagree with you J. I honestly know how and why you feel the way you do - it comes from being frustrated. You are frustrated with what seems like silent support by the allegedly peaceful Muslim majority. However, since I have been able to see the problem up close, and live amongst them, I have come to recognize that the fault for their inaction rests partially on our own shoulders. This administration has failed miserably in the PR campaigns necessary to "win the hearts and minds" of the world.

The result is that they have failed to form a proper coalition involving entire nations full of potential supporters, and, most importantly, they've failed to motivate the peaceful majority of Muslims to action against the elements among them that are ruining the party for everyone else!

J, don't let that frustration consume you. Instead, try to focus on coming up with new ways to reach out to the Muslim population and motivate them to action against some of their own.

Palehorse,

I usually am at odds with your posts and have never had a problem telling you such. This time, however, I am in agreement with your analysis of the problems that we are facing WRT the fanaticals within Islam itself and the utterly horrific job that this administration has done to date to address those problems.

Your post above talks about how we are not enemies of the entire group but of those that are extremists. I think that this is a message that gets lost in the mix within our own society regarding politics and religion.

I am an independent that would probably be more closely tied to libertarian beliefs than any other. I am very fiscally conservative (but still recognize a need for some social programs), socially liberal (in that I don't think that we as a society should actively promote and legislate bigotry among other things) and very much for small government (what I do is my business kinda mentality (obviously as long as it doesn't harm another)).

With that said, I would like to be one of the first to say that I am big enough to admit that I respect the information that you are bringing to this thread and more importantly, the manner in which you are doing so (with respectful discussion instead of our norm around here most times )

Good job.

/jumps off soapbox running now that rant is over

 

[poohbear]

stop spreading hate, most muslims are peaceful people like you and me, dont try to demonize them.

Hey genius, go read my post two up from your own. (the one I directed at Jaskalas). Then, once you've read it and realize that your accusations are wrong,stick them somewhere it doesnt shine... ok? good.

enough said.

my post was'nt directed at you specfically, i just read some nasty things by other posters, and it was directed at this thread in general which has become pretty hate induced.

i have travelled around the "muslim world", which by the way is no requirement whatsoever to being muslim or even to understand islam. i've been to Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Libya, i can assure you we dont sit and talk about virgins in paradise when praying at a mosque.

furthermore, you quoted a hadith about said "72 virgins" from someone who died 892CE, this person neither lived anywhere near the time of mohamad (died 632CE) nor in the time of any of the companions of mohamad (which is one of the criteria for an authentic hadith), how can you possibly quote him as a reliable hadith?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: poohbear

I am actually referring to a majority of the roughly 1.5 billion Muslims throughout the entire world who are taught the lessons of Mohammed found only in the Hadiths; including the Hadith in question that specifically mentions the 72 virgins.

hello, im muslim, and i've never been taught this hadith about 72 virgins in my life. Nor have any of my family or any of my friends.

If you study islam so much why dont you point out there are varying degrees of authenticity among hadiths & that some hadiths even contradict the Quran? the 40 famous & most authentic hadiths of mohamad certainly dont mention anything about 72 virgins.

You're gravely mistaken to say we're taught this because it simply isnt true.

go to any mosque lecture, any book on sunni islam, and you won't find any mention of this. If i quote every outdated nonsensical thing catholics have believed in the past (infantile damnation, women having no souls, bathing is a sin as decreed by a pope in the 12th century, excorcism, condoning racism & slavery) and emphasized those as basic tenets that are taught to cathlics, i would be out and out lying. those beliefs DID exist in christianity at one point, but it would be absurd to say that they're taught to christians regularly.

stop spreading hate, most muslims are peaceful people like you and me, dont try to demonize them.

FTW and total ownage, thank you for that clarity!

it's not "total ownage" at all. He is just as wrong as Aimster.

Like I said, most members of a particular sect know very little, if anything, about other sects of the same religion. In this case, both Aimster and Poohbear may belong to mosques where this Hadith is not preached (my guess is that they belong to mosques in the US which DO tend to discount this Hadith), but the truth is that a large majority of the Islamic mosques around the world do, in fact, teach that virgins await good Muslims when they enter paradise (heaven).

Please note: Not once did I connect this belief with martyrdom or murder. In fact, most of the Muslims who believe in the virgins do NOT condone either act. Only the most extreme Imams would connect the two...

 

[Moonbeam]

We have seen that it takes just a few psychopaths in power to lead us into war. A psychopath is a person who is so certain he is right that it's OK if you die for the good. Of course another kind of psychopath is the one who elects such people.

 

[Aimster]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster
Have you traveled throughout the Muslim world? No you haven't.

My travels and deployments have taken me throughout much of it, yes. And during my travels, I have become good friends with many intelligent and well-educated Muslims; including several Imams and professors at various universities throughout what you may recognize as "the Muslim world."

next...

& those good "friends" of yours talked about virgin heaven, huh?


"hey palehorse if I kill you I get 72 virgins. Bend over so I can cap your ass and get my virgins already"/

Not once have I connected suicide murder with the virgins. In fact, most muslims who do believe in the virgins simply expect them whenever they die and enter paradise after leading a decent and faithful life.

Not once have I stated that most Muslims believe in being a suicidal martyr of some sort. This is an example of you reading into what someone is saying.

Either that, or you're simply illiterate...

So when Muslim men die they expect to go to heaven with virgins?

Please go educate yourself. Seriously. What you are posting is just wrong

Every Muslim on this board is going to correct you if they read what you just said. Yet, you will somehow find a reason to correct them.

They are the ones who grew up with the religion and read the books. Asked the Imams

With all respect, you went to Afghanistan. A piece of sh!t country with a bunch of backward twisted people. You expect to label yourself an expert on Islam by going there?? You went nowhere special.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster
That is where you are mistaken.

What you are suggesting is that :Islam says that if a Muslim kills himself and takes along a non-Muslim with him that he will get 72 virgins in heaven: That is simply not true.

I never said anything even remotely close to that. Not even ONCE did I connect the belief in virgins to an act of murder or martyrdom.

If that were the case, why are the minorities in all the Muslim countries alive? Nobody can protect minorities from a wave of hundreds of millions of Muslims who believe in a virgin heaven.

I pointed out Iran because they are a fanatical wacko Islamic country. How could you deny otherwise? If they are not then the rest of the Muslim world is perfect. Except for Saudi Arabia.
Iran has a "suicide" squad to defend Iran. That suicide squad is not doing suicide to get "virgins".

wow.. I dont even know wtf your point is there. I'm seriously beginning to doubt your ability to read and comprehend English...

But, once again, at no point in time did I ever connect the prevalent belief in virgins to murder, suicide, martyrdom, or anything resembling these acts.

Reading comprehension ftw.

 

[Arkaign]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Arkaign

Originally posted by: poohbear

I am actually referring to a majority of the roughly 1.5 billion Muslims throughout the entire world who are taught the lessons of Mohammed found only in the Hadiths; including the Hadith in question that specifically mentions the 72 virgins.

hello, im muslim, and i've never been taught this hadith about 72 virgins in my life. Nor have any of my family or any of my friends.

If you study islam so much why dont you point out there are varying degrees of authenticity among hadiths & that some hadiths even contradict the Quran? the 40 famous & most authentic hadiths of mohamad certainly dont mention anything about 72 virgins.

You're gravely mistaken to say we're taught this because it simply isnt true.

go to any mosque lecture, any book on sunni islam, and you won't find any mention of this. If i quote every outdated nonsensical thing catholics have believed in the past (infantile damnation, women having no souls, bathing is a sin as decreed by a pope in the 12th century, excorcism, condoning racism & slavery) and emphasized those as basic tenets that are taught to cathlics, i would be out and out lying. those beliefs DID exist in christianity at one point, but it would be absurd to say that they're taught to christians regularly.

stop spreading hate, most muslims are peaceful people like you and me, dont try to demonize them.

FTW and total ownage, thank you for that clarity!

it's not "total ownage" at all. He is just as wrong as Aimster.

Like I said, most members of a particular sect know very little, if anything, about other sects of the same religion. In this case, both Aimster and Poohbear may belong to mosques where this Hadith is not preached (my guess is that they belong to mosques in the US which DO tend to discount this Hadith), but the truth is that a large majority of the Islamic mosques around the world do, in fact, teach that virgins await good Muslims when they enter paradise (heaven).

Please note: Not once did I connect this belief with martyrdom or murder. In fact, most of the Muslims who believe in the virgins do NOT condone either act. Only the most extreme Imams would connect the two...

Ok, I'll bite. How, exactly, does one determine that a 'large majority' of Islamic mosques around the world teach about virgins awaiting them in Paradise after death? Is it some kind of scientific poll? How many mosques are there, anyway? How many Imams and clerics? Are there some statistics to back this up?

 

[poohbear]

Like I said, most members of a particular sect know very little, if anything, about other sects of the same religion. In this case, both Aimster and Poohbear may belong to mosques where this Hadith is not preached (my guess is that they belong to mosques in the US which DO tend to discount this Hadith), but the truth is that a large majority of the Islamic mosques around the world do, in fact, teach that virgins await good Muslims when they enter paradise (heaven).

if im not mistaken aimster is jewish right? he's not muslim, albeit its ironic he's the one defending it so much. palehorse, if you say that we dont know about our religion, are you telling me outsiders are the authority on our religion? im telling you what i've been taught growing up, and yet you're insisting that its a common part of my religion & the majority of our mosques teach it. at any rate, answer me this:

you quoted a hadith about said "72 virgins" from someone who died 892CE, this person neither lived anywhere near the time of mohamad (died 632CE) nor in the time of any of the companions of mohamad (which is one of the criteria for an authentic hadith), how can you possibly quote him as a reliable hadith?

 

[Aimster]

so men get virgins
women get nothing

nice

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Aimster
Have you traveled throughout the Muslim world? No you haven't.

My travels and deployments have taken me throughout much of it, yes. And during my travels, I have become good friends with many intelligent and well-educated Muslims; including several Imams and professors at various universities throughout what you may recognize as "the Muslim world."

next...

& those good "friends" of yours talked about virgin heaven, huh?


"hey palehorse if I kill you I get 72 virgins. Bend over so I can cap your ass and get my virgins already"/

Not once have I connected suicide murder with the virgins. In fact, most muslims who do believe in the virgins simply expect them whenever they die and enter paradise after leading a decent and faithful life.

Not once have I stated that most Muslims believe in being a suicidal martyr of some sort. This is an example of you reading into what someone is saying.

Either that, or you're simply illiterate...

So when Muslim men die they expect to go to heaven with virgins?

Please go educate yourself. Seriously. What you are posting is just wrong

Every Muslim on this board is going to correct you if they read what you just said. Yet, you will somehow find a reason to correct them.

They are the ones who grew up with the religion and read the books. Asked the Imams

With all respect, you went to Afghanistan. A piece of sh!t country with a bunch of backward twisted people. You expect to label yourself an expert on Islam by going there?? You went nowhere special.

"with all do respect," Afghanistan is one of many primarily Muslim countries that I've traveled to and spent time in. I have also been to a few other 'stans, Turkey, Albania, Kosovo, Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, UAE, Egypt, Lebanon, and Israel... just to name a few

I'm a very busy guy these days...

Fact: Many Muslims believe that virgins do, in fact, await them in paradise. Only in the most extreme cases is there ever a connection between the virgins and martyrdom.

Bottom line: Saying that nothing in Islam says anything about virgins in paradise is blatantly false (and you're statement to that effect is what kicked off this entire debate!) In all actuality, ss soon as I quoted the Hadith in question, you lost your case. The rest is just icing...

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: poohbear

Like I said, most members of a particular sect know very little, if anything, about other sects of the same religion. In this case, both Aimster and Poohbear may belong to mosques where this Hadith is not preached (my guess is that they belong to mosques in the US which DO tend to discount this Hadith), but the truth is that a large majority of the Islamic mosques around the world do, in fact, teach that virgins await good Muslims when they enter paradise (heaven).

if im not mistaken aimster is jewish right? he's not muslim, albeit its ironic he's the one defending it so much. palehorse, if you say that we dont know about our religion, are you telling me outsiders are the authority on our religion? im telling you what i've been taught growing up, and yet you're insisting that its a common part of my religion & the majority of our mosques teach it. at any rate, answer me this:

you quoted a hadith about said "72 virgins" from someone who died 892CE, this person neither lived anywhere near the time of mohamad (died 632CE) nor in the time of any of the companions of mohamad (which is one of the criteria for an authentic hadith), how can you possibly quote him as a reliable hadith?

I personally do not teach or preach Islam, so you'd have to ask one of the Imams who does promote this hadith as fact. I think you'll find that many Wahhabi clerics, even in the US, will reference this Hadith on occasion. Reach out and ask one of them.

 

[Aimster]

Landing in a country to go to another country does not count.
Unless you are some old fart, but I take it you are in your 20s/30s.

So what do women get when they go to heaven? no virgins for them huh? Maybe some hairless men with big feet?

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster
Landing in a country to go to another country does not count.
Unless you are some old fart, but I take it you are in your 20s/30s.

So what do women get when they go to heaven? no virgins for them huh? Maybe some hairless men with big feet?

AFAIK, the same Imams address this issue by telling the women that they "get to" spend eternity as one of their Husband's many wives...

I'm not quite sure just how much a treat that is for the women, but it certainly matches up with the standard treatment of women throughout Islam.

 

[Aimster]

I would love to see you show me one of these Imams.

You must go to some fanatical wacko mosques if you are finding imams that say that crap.

 

[Conky]

There is a lot of antisemitism in this thread. :thumbsdown:

Lieberman's stated reason for considering military action against Iran was to stop them from killing Americans in Iraq. I think that's a fine reason.

Of course, people who hate the USA will certainly want the Iranians to continue killing US Troops. I suppose there will always be those who root for evil.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Aimster
I would love to see you show me one of these Imams.

You must go to some fanatical wacko mosques if you are finding imams that say that crap.

Every Imam I have ever spoken with has a different set of beliefs... (The same is true of every Christian preacher as well). It's just a fact that many of them did believe in "virgins" or "companions" awaiting good Muslim men in paradise...

Here's a question: Based on your own beliefs, and those taught at your mosque(s), how do you envision paradise? Describe the place your Imam(s) have drawn for you...

 

[azazyel]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

I've studied Islam and the ME for years. I've also spent a good deal of time in the ME, Central Asia, and North Africa. I am currently finishing up another degree that focuses on terrorism studies, and I'm even in a language program learning Arabic. I've never spent more than a second at any of the ridiculous internet sites you listed, and I've certainly never drawn research data from any of them.

WTF? Where you getting your degree from?

poohbear Good question, it's like taking the word of a Pope as the word of god.

 

[Aimster]

my belief is that Islam is an Arab religion that has plagued my "country of identity" and destroyed it. Therefore, the U.S is my country and my children's country until my country is liberated. It will be never so all praise U.S. It doesn't seem I feel that way about Islam when I post on here however, does it? I come out as being a "Muslim".

I don't go to mosque(s). I only went a few times because I was dating a girl who came from a strict Muslim family. The [insert body part] was excellent and I would have done anything to continue to get it. Therefore, I educated myself on Islam.

Now the mosque I went to was/is run by the Iranian Government. The people there have the same belief system as the idiots who run Iran. You must be thinking, that was some good piece of ass. Yes, it sure as hell was. During my little mosque adventures I talked to people there and I made a few friends. None of them has ever mentioned anything about a virgin heaven. I discussed it with them and they clearly said what you said. Except bad books taught to the misinformed individuals. Usually "Arabs or Palestinians. When they said Arab that usually referred to the Saudi - Wabbi sect".

Now if a fanatical mosque run by the Iranian government doesn't preach a single thing about a virgin heaven, what makes you think other mosques are going around preaching it? Iran is fanatical as fanatical can be. The only other country that comes close is Saudi Arabia.